4 Ohio titles vs. 2 PA titles

[CholleyVandine]

I stumbled on an old comment on another board about whether The Bull's four D2 titles in Ohio are better than or merely equal to Vincenzo Joseph's two titles in PA. I was curious, so I went back and looked at who they wrestled.

To win his titles, Marinelli beat these wrestlers in the finals:

• Aidan Pasiuk (now wrestling for D2 Wheeling Jesuit)
• Robbie Bowers (he's 3-2 this year as a redshirt for Ohio University)
• Kordell Ford (he's playing football at D3 Mount Union)
• Seth Williams (the most successful college wrestler of the four ... he was 16-15 in three seasons as a backup at tOSU)

In his four seasons at PA states, Joseph had these wrestlers in his brackets:

• Michael Kemerer (current ranking: 2nd, 157)
• Hayden Hidlay (3rd, 157)
• Ethan Lizak (3rd, 125)
• Scott Parker (2nd, 133)
• Dom Forys (10th, 133)
• Josh Maruca (14th, 149)
• Ronnie Perry (15th, 149)
• Previous national qualifiers Dalton Macri, Sam Krivus, & Zach Fuentes
• Future stud Mike Labriola
• Iowa jayvee stalwart Kaleb Young
• The itinerant Patrick Duggan

I'm not throwing shade on the Bull's college prospects, but 7-3-1-1 in PA > 1-1-1-1 in Ohio all day every day.

 

[greenmanRD]

What were the other wrestlers in The Bull's brackets?

 

[dunkej01]

Take a look at Cenzos bracket from his freshman year. This was discussed on twitter last night

 

[Dar.of.Emur]

SPG is in Ohio division II (D-I is the big schools), so Marinelli's competition at state wont be as impressive as a similar guy from St Eds (D-1).

There have never been an 4x Ohio champion in D-1 that did not start out in the lowest weight class. There have been numerous D-2 and D3 4x'ers that started higher than the lowest weight class. (such as BoJo).

So the better question would be 4x Ohio D-1 vs 2x PA any division.

The answer will be PA, which produces more D1 talent than Ohio (and all other states) and has less divisions.

Assuming Sammy Sasso win PA state this year.. he will 'only' be a 2x champ and in 4 years he will have only lost 2 matches in state competition, one to Spencer Lee, and one to Luke Pletcher.

 

[El-Jefe]

My first reaction to the title was Romero vs. Labriola. Give me the Cobra.

My next reaction was: Micah Jordan vs. Zain. Poor Micah.

But this is about Cenzo, so here are a few other guys he beat in HS: Ke-Shawn Hayes, Jordan Kutler, Brock Zacherl, Solomon Chishko, Verk, AC Headlee, Pat Duggan, Nino Bonaccorsi, Jake Wentzel.

 

[nerfstate]

It's called mat wrestling, and it's at least half of the sport.

 

[nitlion6]

It's called mat wrestling, and it's at least half of the sport.

Joseph was the premier recruit out of a long list of similarly sized pretty darn good wrestlers. Mat wrestling never was Cenzo's forte.

Logie Bear was a beast on top.

Just saying it isn't something as straight forward and simple as just mat wrestling.

 

[nitlion6]

Cenzo's two AAA titles are impressive enough if viewed in a vacuum.

Looking at what he was competing against and how in his senior year he just bytch slapped dominated and owned the weight is impressive at a spectacular level.

 

[tpnlion]

I think the resume Cenzo has speaks for itself in regards to both high school and college. I will add that overall I value a PA state championship over Ohio generally speaking. Most of this is due to the 3 divisions and just my opinion. I also admit Ohio has come a long way in the past 30 years and has some fabulous wrestling today that would have never compared to Pa back when I was in high school (87 grad)

I will never forget as a freshman at Ohio Northern University, my RA was a wrestler and a good one as I think he is in the ONU sports hall of fame today. But, what I recall is when he found out I was from PA he could not stop talking about the state of Pennsylvania's wrestlers and was always asking me about different wrestlers etc. Ohio as a state has closed that gap immensely over the past 3 decades for sure.

 

[Onceafish]

What were the other wrestlers in The Bull's brackets?

No one i’ve ever heard of.

 

[Onceafish]

SPG is in Ohio division II (D-I is the big schools), so Marinelli's competition at state wont be as impressive as a similar guy from St Eds (D-1).

The Bull’s competition at State won’t even matter if he goes on to win Midland, Big Ten, NCAA and Olympic. Can I get an amen?

 

[nitlion6]

The Bull’s competition at State won’t even matter if he goes on to win Midland, Big Ten, NCAA and Olympic. Can I get an amen?

As far as getting that accomplished wearing the black and gold.

Since Cael arrived in State College Penn State kids have won more NCAA championships than Iowa kids have won Big10 championships.

 

[nerfstate]

Joseph was the premier recruit out of a long list of similarly sized pretty darn good wrestlers. Mat wrestling never was Cenzo's forte.

Logie Bear was a beast on top.

Just saying it isn't something as straight forward and simple as just mat wrestling.

That David Taylor dude was pretty good on the Mat too. There are always going to be exceptions. But if you believe DT when he was on Askren's podcast, Ohio rules and coaching emphasis favor neutral development above all else. Not true here in PA

 

[pawrestlersintn]

The Bull’s competition at State won’t even matter if he goes on to win Midland, Big Ten, NCAA and Olympic. Can I get an amen?

No, because you called it State, and not States.

 

[nitlion6]

That David Taylor dude was pretty good on the Mat too. There are always going to be exceptions. But if you believe DT when he was on Askren's podcast, Ohio rules and coaching emphasis favor neutral development above all else. Not true here in PA

I acknowledge there are always exceptions, and I am not denying PA kids can be beasts on top. There is just a whole lot more to the explanation of high quanity of elite quality of PA wrestling than simply mat wrestling.

 

[Onceafish]

No, because you called it State, and not States.

I also called Midlands”Midland,” Big Tens “ Big Ten,” NCAAs “NCAA,” and the Olympics “Olympic.” Not saying it was a good one, but that was kind of the joke.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

I will have to agree with Cenzo had the tougher bracket. But if we are debating stupid crap like this to justify our teams, well then...

By this logic then Metcalf's 2 NCAA titles will trump Zain's 3 because of how impressive Metcalf brackets were.

Regardless if I believe it or not you guys painted yourselves into this corner.

 

[NoVa Lion]

I will have to agree with Cenzo had the tougher bracket. But if we are debating stupid crap like this to justify our teams, well then...

By this logic then Metcalf's 2 NCAA titles will trump Zain's 3 because of how impressive Metcalf brackets were.

Regardless if I believe it or not you guys painted yourselves into this corner.

Nice straw man argument. Show me where anyone in this thread brought this up to justify our team? Other than you that is, which is basically the definition of a straw man argument.

 

[nitlion6]

I will have to agree with Cenzo had the tougher bracket. But if we are debating stupid crap like this to justify our teams, well then...

By this logic then Metcalf's 2 NCAA titles will trump Zain's 3 because of how impressive Metcalf brackets were.

Regardless if I believe it or not you guys painted yourselves into this corner.

I thought Zain and Metcalf wrestled in the same division, same tournament.
Corners and paints? Pte-school, kindergarten or is this one of those activities they play as a group therapy thing?

 

[El-Jefe]

I will have to agree with Cenzo had the tougher bracket. But if we are debating stupid crap like this to justify our teams, well then...

By this logic then Metcalf's 2 NCAA titles will trump Zain's 3 because of how impressive Metcalf brackets were.

Regardless if I believe it or not you guys painted yourselves into this corner.

Actually the discussion is how a bracket at one level impacts results at the next level.

So far Metcalf and Zain have the same number of medals at Worlds and Olympics.

 

[CholleyVandine]

I will have to agree with Cenzo had the tougher bracket. But if we are debating stupid crap like this to justify our teams, well then...

By this logic then Metcalf's 2 NCAA titles will trump Zain's 3 because of how impressive Metcalf brackets were.

Regardless if I believe it or not you guys painted yourselves into this corner.

This is not even an argument that Cenzo is better than the Bull, much less some kind of justification of our team. You can only beat the guys they put in front of you. The fact that his competition was relatively weak takes some shine off the accomplishment of winning four titles. And the fact that Joseph had to run a gauntlet of kids who would go on to D1 success to win his titles adds prestige to his accomplishment. But it doesn't say anything about how good Joseph is relative to Marinelli.

Now that title Cenzo won as a freshman over a two-time champ who had whupped the Bull by major decision during the year ... that's a different matter. That is a pretty good argument that Cenzo is better than the Bull.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

I thought the debate was one person titles are better than another's because of the strength of the competition in the brackets? Saying the Bulls 4 were not as tough as Cenzo's 2

It wasn't who would beat who head straight up.

So I'm saying Zains soon to be 3 are not better than Metcalfs 2 given the resumes of who were in the brackets.

Its the same argument. Quality over Quantity right?

 

[dunkej01]

Quality over Quantity right?

You serious with this one?

If you asked brent if he would rather be a 3x champ and not have the crushing loss to caldwell vs having a few less recognized participants in his bracket the years he won it, what do you think he would say........

in many things you are right, not sure that it applies to championships.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

You serious with this one?

If you asked brent if he would rather be a 3x champ and not have the crushing loss to caldwell vs having a few less recognized participants in his bracket the years he won it, what do you think he would say........

in many things you are right, not sure that it applies to championships.

Im not the OP. Didnt even say I believe it. Just saying what I said. Thread was created to pimp up PA HS wrestling and put down an Iowa guy. I am sure the bull is sitting around saying I would rather have won 2 states in PA instead of my 4 in Ohio...NOT

 

[spyker]

Im not the OP. Didnt even say I believe it. Just saying what I said. Thread was created to pimp up PA HS wrestling and put down an Iowa guy. I am sure the bull is sitting around saying I would rather have won 2 states in PA instead of my 4 in Ohio...NOT

Just trying to focus on Cinzo....We are experiencing something i think most of us take for granted with Cael...There will be movies made of him and PSU years down the road....We should NEVER take him and this staff for granted.....They are a once in a lifetime crew for real...I could care less about what anyone else thinks....They are not stupid...Everyone in the country knows he and this staff are VERY VERY SPECIAL.....It would be a dream come true to win 2 state titles and be coached by them....

 

[PSU Mike]

Just trying to focus on Cinzo....We are experiencing something i think most of us take for granted with Cael...There will be movies made of him and PSU years down the road....We should NEVER take him and this staff for granted.....They are a once in a lifetime crew for real...I could care less about what anyone else thinks....They are not stupid...Everyone in the country knows he and this staff are VERY VERY SPECIAL.....It would be a dream come true to win 2 state titles and be coached by them....

But for most of us the dream would be dry.

 

[dunkej01]

Im not the OP. Didnt even say I believe it. Just saying what I said. Thread was created to pimp up PA HS wrestling and put down an Iowa guy. I am sure the bull is sitting around saying I would rather have won 2 states in PA instead of my 4 in Ohio...NOT

C'mon bro, I asked something simple. I said nothing about the OP or bull or cenzo.

 

[D3wrestler]

Im not the OP. Didnt even say I believe it. Just saying what I said. Thread was created to pimp up PA HS wrestling and put down an Iowa guy. I am sure the bull is sitting around saying I would rather have won 2 states in PA instead of my 4 in Ohio...NOT

In this discussion he is an Ohio guy...

 

[WildTurk]

I really like Alex. That was a big opening win for him. Very aggressive

 

[NoVa Lion]

Im not the OP. Didnt even say I believe it. Just saying what I said. Thread was created to pimp up PA HS wrestling and put down an Iowa guy. I am sure the bull is sitting around saying I would rather have won 2 states in PA instead of my 4 in Ohio...NOT

Bolded part of your post is yet another straw man argument.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

C'mon bro, I asked something simple. I said nothing about the OP or bull or cenzo.

Of course Brent would want to be a 3x. I am also sure he would like the VT year back.

But I don't get the point? Cenzo would want to be a 4x as well. Cenzo could have won 4 in Ohio and still be what he is in Happy Valley right now. David Taylor won 4x in Ohio, why aren't we trying to downgrade his?

Off the top of my head Derek St John's 2 Iowa state titles might be more impressive than Gullibons 4. He beat a guy named Kyven Gadson for one title and had other big names along the way like Moreno whom I believe he beat every time except for that loss his SR year. .

But that doesn't mean IA HS wrestling is superior to PA in any way. Same as this OH to PA thing.

Also IMO I give the Bull a lot of credit for winning his FR year at that high of a weight in that state. Where as Cenzo started out at a much smaller weight and didn't get it done.

 

[El-Jefe]

Off the top of my head Derek St John's 2 Iowa state titles might be more impressive than Gullibons 4. He beat a guy named Kyven Gadson for one title and had other big names along the way like Moreno whom I believe he beat every time except for that loss his SR year. .
(snip)
Also IMO I give the Bull a lot of credit for winning his FR year at that high of a weight in that state. Where as Cenzo started out at a much smaller weight and didn't get it done.

By that criterion, Cenzo's 2 >> Marinelli's 4 when he decked Kemdog in the state finals.

Did Marinelli face a returning state finalist, future NCAA finalist, in his freshman bracket? Because Cenzo lost to Lizak.

That weight argument only holds so much water. Higher weights mean stronger and more experienced guys, but also talent dilution. The talent is far more concentrated at the lower weights. Thomas Haines won 215 as a FR, but with hindsight the best guy he faced eventually placed 6th at EIWAs. He's still a state champ, but is that really more impressive than if he had won at 106 or 113?

 

[Ihawkd9times]

I agree with all of that El Jefe.

yes, Cenzo's 2 PA titles seem superior to Cael's 4 in Utah.

 

[greenmanRD]

Can we just get to the Scuffle and Midlands already.

 

[RoarLions1]

Apples, oranges, and throw in a few bananas and kumquats.

 

[dropster45]

I will have to agree with Cenzo had the tougher bracket. But if we are debating stupid crap like this to justify our teams, well then...

By this logic then Metcalf's 2 NCAA titles will trump Zain's 3 because of how impressive Metcalf brackets were.

Regardless if I believe it or not you guys painted yourselves into this corner.

Who’s this Metcalf guy you speak of? We’re all new fans here

 

[GOLDBANGER]

Im not the OP. Didnt even say I believe it. Just saying what I said. Thread was created to pimp up PA HS wrestling and put down an Iowa guy. I am sure the bull is sitting around saying I would rather have won 2 states in PA instead of my 4 in Ohio...NOT

Just leave the "pimping" up to me, that's my bailiwick.