80 hrs ago; Operation Market Garden
- Thread starter The Spin Meister
- Start date
General Montgomery was the Rich Kotite of his era
Should've just given Patton the men and gas and he'd have shortened the war. This wasn't a crazy plan, but one Ike made because of pressure from politicians on both sides of the pond. This was making the Brits and Montgomery feel good after failures to secure the port of Rotterdam.
Crazy that the Dutch still celebrate the effort.
Crazy that the Dutch still celebrate the effort.
I always liked the line in the movie on Patton, when the Russian General wanted to have a drink with him. Patton told the interpretor " I won't drink with him or any Russian son-of-a-bitch." After hearing the interpretor the Russian General said " tell him he's a SOB too." Upon hearing that Patton said " now I'll drink to that!" Loved that.
in what way?...sure they captured some towns, but they failed in the main goal of securing the bridge over the rhine..it had an inconsequential outcome, almost meaningless....lol, not sure it makes the top 20-30 operations
Two great books, obviously Cornelius Ryan's, but also Antony Beavor's as well.
It was a daring plan, but doomed to fail. The Arnhem drop zones were about 7-10 miles from the main highway bridge. Element of surprise was completely gone. There was a plan to send a squad of machine gun Jeeps directly to the bridge, but many were lost in the drop. The radios also failed the Brits at Arnhem. One thing that surprised me was just how narrow the Rhine was at Arnhem, compared to Nijmegen. The river crossing by the 82nd boys there has to be one of the signature feats of the Western front. The river there is very wide with a strong current. In Arnhem it was considerably narrower.
I visited back in 2018. The museums around Arnhem and Oosterbeek are top notch. The main cemetery was enlightening, but in a different and sad way. In their minds, the Limeys blamed the Polish brigade for the failure, and because their general, Sosabowski, pointed out the plan's folly before the drop. They really shoved the Polish graves toward the fringes of the cemetery. (If there's another reason for this, I'd appreciate hearing it.)
The major mistakes, in my study of the battle, were the lackadaisical advance by XXX Corps, combined with overconfidence. The failure to drop close to all of the bridges was practically begging the Germans to blow one of them, which they did at Son, leading to the first major delay of 30 hours to build a Bailey bridge. For those of you that read Ryan's book, you'll recall the Dutch officer who stormed into an officer's mess for the Irish Guards and laid into them, telling them that the proper way to attack Arnhem from Nijmegen was a question at their war college, and trying to go straight ahead from one city to another was suicide on the elevated highway. Choosing that option led to failure at the college, and it certainly led to failure in real life. Brit intel was another abject failure. They had solid intel of their own, and Dutch intel that they didn't trust (with some reason) about the panzer divisions in the way. But with so many canceled drops, nobody wanted to rock the boat and see another operation canceled.
It truly is a fascinating aspect of the western front, and a very clear lesson on how the winners write the history. I dare say very few Americans were even aware of Market-Garden until Ryan's book and the movie (30 years after the battle). And the poor Dutch, they were the victims of vicious Nazi reprisals after the battle, and then the horrific winter led to mass starvation and famine into the final days of the war in April-May 1945. Monty's insistence of the operation being a 90 percent success led the Dutch Prince Bernhard to quip, "My country can never again afford the luxury of a Montgomery success."
Thanks for this thread. I could talk about this for hours. We all remember June 6, 1944. But September 17 should also be remembered.
It was a daring plan, but doomed to fail. The Arnhem drop zones were about 7-10 miles from the main highway bridge. Element of surprise was completely gone. There was a plan to send a squad of machine gun Jeeps directly to the bridge, but many were lost in the drop. The radios also failed the Brits at Arnhem. One thing that surprised me was just how narrow the Rhine was at Arnhem, compared to Nijmegen. The river crossing by the 82nd boys there has to be one of the signature feats of the Western front. The river there is very wide with a strong current. In Arnhem it was considerably narrower.
I visited back in 2018. The museums around Arnhem and Oosterbeek are top notch. The main cemetery was enlightening, but in a different and sad way. In their minds, the Limeys blamed the Polish brigade for the failure, and because their general, Sosabowski, pointed out the plan's folly before the drop. They really shoved the Polish graves toward the fringes of the cemetery. (If there's another reason for this, I'd appreciate hearing it.)
The major mistakes, in my study of the battle, were the lackadaisical advance by XXX Corps, combined with overconfidence. The failure to drop close to all of the bridges was practically begging the Germans to blow one of them, which they did at Son, leading to the first major delay of 30 hours to build a Bailey bridge. For those of you that read Ryan's book, you'll recall the Dutch officer who stormed into an officer's mess for the Irish Guards and laid into them, telling them that the proper way to attack Arnhem from Nijmegen was a question at their war college, and trying to go straight ahead from one city to another was suicide on the elevated highway. Choosing that option led to failure at the college, and it certainly led to failure in real life. Brit intel was another abject failure. They had solid intel of their own, and Dutch intel that they didn't trust (with some reason) about the panzer divisions in the way. But with so many canceled drops, nobody wanted to rock the boat and see another operation canceled.
It truly is a fascinating aspect of the western front, and a very clear lesson on how the winners write the history. I dare say very few Americans were even aware of Market-Garden until Ryan's book and the movie (30 years after the battle). And the poor Dutch, they were the victims of vicious Nazi reprisals after the battle, and then the horrific winter led to mass starvation and famine into the final days of the war in April-May 1945. Monty's insistence of the operation being a 90 percent success led the Dutch Prince Bernhard to quip, "My country can never again afford the luxury of a Montgomery success."
Thanks for this thread. I could talk about this for hours. We all remember June 6, 1944. But September 17 should also be remembered.
Always thought our side attempted to murder Patton. But then I never just walk past a good conspiracy.
