9

[Nittany Ziggy]

Don't most Asian country's eat dog? I know I work for a large multi-national conglomerate that does projects around the world. I remember talking recently to a guy (European) about a job he was on a few years ago, it was somewhere in Africa. Said when he was there at the beginning of the job, there was a huge wild dog population locally. He said when the heavy duty construction crews came in, they were mostly Chinese, living on the jobsite in trailers and tents brought in. He said about 6 weeks later he noticed that he didn't see or hear anymore dogs anymore. The local construction manager told him happens all the time when the Chinese construction workers come in, that is one of the reasons they liked them coming in as got rid of the wild dog (and other animal) issues.

I kind of think you may have missed the point of his post there Cletus11.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

So I watched the final episode late tonight.

Very powerful. I was very sad at the end of the final episode.

While many histories I've read of the war did a better job of dealing with specific aspects of the Vietnam War, I thought this was a very good overview of the war, with a number of personal histories on all sides of the war.

10 episodes is a long time to tell a story. That said, I think that most parties would feel that their specific aspect was not fully told. Other parties, like those that didn't flee to Canada but went to jail for refusal to serve, never were addressed in the documentary. The treatment of COs was also not dealt with in the show. Those are just two examples, but there are quite of few other aspects that I don't feel were fully or even partially dealt with.

The Vietnam War created so much conflict in America. It's no surprise that I'm left with many conflicting thoughts after viewing the documentary.

 

[cntblvitsbutter]

Everyone has an opinion - here is article from one that was there.





Subject: Be Skeptical of Ken Burns documentary: The Vietnam War


Be skeptical of Ken Burns’ documentary: The Vietnam War
by Terry Garlock (Terry Garlock was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War)

Some months ago I and a dozen other local veterans attended a screening at the Woodruff Arts Center in Atlanta - preview of a new documentary on The Vietnam War by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick. The screening was a one hour summation of this 10-part documentary, 18 hours long.

The series began showing on PBS Sunday Sep 17, and with Burns’ renowned talent mixing photos, video clips and compelling mood music in documentary form, the series promises to be compelling to watch. That doesn’t mean it tells the truth.

For many years I have been presenting to high school classes a 90 minute session titled The Myths and Truths of the Vietnam War. One of my opening comments is, “The truth about Vietnam is bad enough without twisting it all out of shape with myths, half-truths and outright lies from the anti-war left.” The overall message to students is advising them to learn to think for themselves, be informed by reading one newspaper that leans left, one that leans right, and be skeptical of TV news.

Part of my presentation is showing them four iconic photos from Vietnam, aired publicly around the world countless times to portray America’s evil involvement in Vietnam. I tell the students “the rest of the story” excluded by the news media about each photo, then ask, “Wouldn’t you want the whole story before you decide for yourself what to think?”

One of those photos is the summary execution of a Viet Cong soldier in Saigon, capital city of South Vietnam, during the battles of the Tet Offensive in 1968. Our dishonorable enemy negotiated a cease-fire for that holiday then on that holiday attacked in about 100 places all over the country. Here’s what I tell students about the execution in the photo.

Enemy execution by South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police, 1968

“Before you decide what to think, here’s what the news media never told us. This enemy soldier had just been caught after he murdered a Saigon police officer, the officer’s wife, and the officer’s six children. The man pulling the trigger was Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police. His actions were supported by South Vietnamese law, and by the Geneva Convention since he was an un-uniformed illegal combatant. Now, you might still be disgusted by the summary execution, but wouldn’t you want all the facts before you decide what to think?”

The other one-sided stories about iconic photos I use are a nine year old girl named Kim Phuc, running down a road after her clothes were burned off by a napalm bomb, a lady kneeling by the body of a student at Kent State University, and a helicopter on top of a building with too many evacuees trying to climb aboard. Each one had only the half of the story told by news media during the war, the half that supported the anti-war narrative.

Our group of vets left the Ken Burns documentary screening . . . disappointed. As one example, all four of the photos I use were shown, with only the anti-war narrative. Will the whole truth be told in the full 18 hours? I have my doubts but we’ll see.

On the drive home with Mike King, Bob Grove and Terry Ernst, Ernst asked the other three of us who had been in Vietnam, “How does it make you feel seeing those photos and videos?” I answered, “I just wish for once they would get it right.”

Will the full documentary show John Kerry’s covert meeting in Paris with the leadership of the Viet Cong while he was still an officer in the US Naval Reserve and a leader in the anti-war movement? Will it show how Watergate crippled the Republicans and swept Democrats into Congress in 1974, and their rapid defunding of South Vietnamese promised support after Americans had been gone from Vietnam two years? Will it show Congress violating America’s pledge to defend South Vietnam if the North Vietnamese ever broke their pledge to never attack the south? Will it portray America’s shame in letting our ally fall, the tens of thousands executed for working with Americans, the hundreds of thousands who perished fleeing in overpacked, rickety boats, the million or so sent to brutal re-education camps? Will it show the North Vietnamese victors bringing an influx from the north to take over South Vietnam’s businesses, the best jobs, farms, all the good housing, or committing the culturally ruthless sin of bulldozing grave monuments of the South Vietnamese?

Will Burns show how the North Vietnamese took the city of Hue during the 1968 Tet Offensive, bringing lists of names of political leaders, business owners, doctors, nurses, teachers and other “enemies of the people,” and how they went from street to street, dragging people out of their homes, and that in the aftermath of the Battle of Hue, only when thousands of people were missing and the search began did they find the mass graves where they had been tied together and buried alive?

Will Burns show how America, after finally withdrawing from Vietnam and shamefully standing by while our ally was brutalized, did nothing while next door in Cambodia the Communists murdered two million of their own people as they tried to mimic Mao’s “worker paradise” in China?

Will Burns show how American troops conducted themselves with honor, skill and courage, never lost a major battle, and helped the South Vietnamese people in many ways like building roads and schools, digging wells, teaching improved farming methods and bringing medical care where it had never been seen before? Will he show that American war crimes, exaggerated by the left, were even more rare in Vietnam than in WWII? Will he show how a naïve young Jane Fonda betrayed her country with multiple radio broadcasts from North Vietnam, pleading with American troops to refuse their orders to fight, and calling American pilots and our President war criminals?

Color me doubtful about these and many other questions.

Being in a war doesn’t make anyone an expert on the geopolitical issues, it’s a bit like seeing history through a straw with your limited view. But my perspective has come from many years of reflection and absorbing a multitude of facts and opinions, because I was interested. My belief is that America’s involvement in Vietnam was a noble cause trying to stop the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia, while it had spread its miserable oppression in Eastern Europe and was gaining traction in Central America, Africa and other places around the world. This noble cause was, indeed, screwed up to a fare-thee-well by the Pentagon and White House, which multiplied American casualties.

The tone of the screening was altogether different, that our part in the war was a sad mistake. It seemed like Burns and Novick took photos, video clips, artifacts and interviews from involved Americans, South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, Viet Cong, civilians from south and north, reporters and others, threw it all in a blender to puree into a new form of moral equivalence. Good for spreading a thin layer of blame and innocence, not so good for finding the truth.

John M. Del Vecchio, author of The 13th Valley, a book considered by many Vietnam vets to be the literary touchstone of how they served and suffered in the jungles of Vietnam, has this to say about Burns’ documentary:” Pretending to honor those who served while subtly and falsely subverting the reasons and justifications for that service is a con man’s game . . . From a cinematic perspective it will be exceptional. Burns knows how to make great scenes. But through the lens of history it appears to reinforce a highly skewed narrative and to be an attempt to ossify false cultural memory. The lies and fallacies will be by omission, not by overt falsehoods.”

I expect to see American virtue minimized, American missteps emphasized, to fit the left-leaning narrative about the Vietnam War that, to this day, prevents our country from learning the real lessons from that war.

When we came home from Vietnam, we thought the country had lost its mind. Wearing the uniform was for fools too dimwitted to escape service. Burning draft cards, protesting the war in ways that insulted our own troops was cool, as was fleeing to Canada.

America’s current turmoil reminds me of those days, since so many of American traditional values are being turned upside down. Even saying words defending free speech on a university campus feels completely absurd, but here we are.

So Ken Burns’ new documentary on the Vietnam War promises to solidify him as the documentary king, breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good.

Perhaps you will prove me wrong. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.
-----------------------------------------
Terry Garlock lives in Peachtree City, GA. He was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War.

As far the picture of the naked girl running is concerned, The Vietnam War described it as an accident of war. A Vietnamese pilot mistook the group she was in as a group of VC and bombed them with napalm. This photograph is talked about as becoming a crystallizing symbol for what the people were protesting.

Is there another perspective (about this perspective) that the documentary missed or left out?

For me, I learned alot about the war. Things like that there was an American helicopter pilot that tried to stop the massacre at Mi Lai by threatening to open fire on American troops. Or that there were other soldiers there who tried to save villagers by moving them to safety. I learned that protests were starting to get violent with a rash of bombings especially as the war continued. I learned that over 30,000 Canadiens volunteered to fight in Vietnam. I learned that corruption in the South Vietnamese government was a big reason the war was "unwinnable."

I knew the overall arc of the "Vietnam" story, but Burns' documentary just filled in so many details that put it into a greater context.

 

[Obliviax]

So I watched the final episode late tonight.

Very powerful. I was very sad at the end of the final episode.

While many histories I've read of the war did a better job of dealing with specific aspects of the Vietnam War, I thought this was a very good overview of the war, with a number of personal histories on all sides of the war.

10 episodes is a long time to tell a story. That said, I think that most parties would feel that their specific aspect was not fully told. Other parties, like those that didn't flee to Canada but went to jail for refusal to serve, never were addressed in the documentary. The treatment of COs was also not dealt with in the show. Those are just two examples, but there are quite of few other aspects that I don't feel were fully or even partially dealt with.

The Vietnam War created so much conflict in America. It's no surprise that I'm left with many conflicting thoughts after viewing the documentary.

The war was, for many, the end of innocence. While our politicians were far from perfect, we felt they had good intentions. There was nobility in fighting socialism. And that a republic represented the people. We learned how that can be a veneer if we aren't careful.

While I am no fan of how the NFL players are protesting, we have to see how democracies can veer off course and when adjustments are necessary.

The real tragedy of vn, aside from the 50000 us lives, is how the government lied to justify the ongoing war. This created a horrible divide between govt and people that has never subsided. Funny that people have become so partisan because history shows neither party can be trusted.

On the other hand, perhaps the greatest value of vn is that very same lesson, distrust of government. Hard to say.

 

[troutrus]

The French are a bunch of pussies, and the USA has constantly had to clean up their mess. Irritating.

If it wasn't for the French, we'd be speaking with a British accent.

 

[junior1]

The war was, for many, the end of innocence. While our politicians were far from perfect, we felt they had good intentions. There was nobility in fighting socialism. And that a republic represented the people. We learned how that can be a veneer if we aren't careful.

While I am no fan of how the NFL players are protesting, we have to see how democracies can veer off course and when adjustments are necessary.

The real tragedy of vn, aside from the 50000 us lives, is how the government lied to justify the ongoing war. This created a horrible divide between govt and people that has never subsided. Funny that people have become so partisan because history shows neither party can be trusted.

On the other hand, perhaps the greatest value of vn is that very same lesson, distrust of government. Hard to say.

A lesson once again learned, but forgotten, is how big government, maybe with good intentions, fails to achieve basic objectives but devolves into the politics of self protection. In each of the three administrations, the Presidents knew what needed to be done, but made their decisions based on upcoming elections. The result was an extended conflict and the loss of more American lives. Everyone should understand this as debates continue in Washington over giving DC politicians more control over our lives.

 

[PSU77sh]

Got to watch most of it. Was taken aback last night with the guy who fled to Canada and gave up his American citizenship. He said that Canada is a great country but the most stupid thing he ever did was relinquish his American citizenship.

 

[TheBigUglies]

Very eye opening. I never really understood why all the protests before watching this. Holy Crap our leaders were jackasses. Some things never change.

We gave our soldiers guns that maybe worked? There was a bit in one of the earlier episodes that said the M16 would keep jamming in the middle of fighting. Some of the higher ups were more worried about budget then giving the soldiers what they needed. Some of those guys stories are heartbreaking. It was kind of neat to hear from soldiers on the other side as well.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Very eye opening. I never really understood why all the protests before watching this. Holy Crap our leaders were jackasses. Some things never change.

We gave our soldiers guns that maybe worked? There was a bit in one of the earlier episodes that said the M16 would keep jamming in the middle of fighting. Some of the higher ups were more worried about budget then giving the soldiers what they needed. Some of those guys stories are heartbreaking. It was kind of neat to hear from soldiers on the other side as well.

I may be mistaken but I believe the major problems were with the AR 15's. They are complicated weapons compared to the AK-47's which will shoot in horrible conditions. The M-16 was considered more reliable and since it was a 30 caliber bore it was more deadly with one shot over the 223 bore AR rifle. Many cases of AR jams in critical situations were recored during the Vietnam War. Owning an AR exemplifies the required cleanliness to operate that weapon reliably. You can imagine lugging it around a jungle and the mud and sand constantly infiltrating parts of the rifle creating possible friction and jamming potential. It's not that important but just a small adjustment to the story. One would have to be familiar with the armament used to fully understand the problems associated with use and the soldiers complaints and troubles in the field.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I may be mistaken but I believe the major problems were with the AR 15's. They are complicated weapons compared to the AK-47's which will shoot in horrible conditions. The M-16 was considered more reliable and since it was a 30 caliber bore it was more deadly with one shot over the 223 bore AR rifle. Many cases of AR jams in critical situations were recored during the Vietnam War. Owning an AR exemplifies the required cleanliness to operate that weapon reliably. You can imagine lugging it around a jungle and the mud and sand constantly infiltrating parts of the rifle creating possible friction and jamming potential. It's not that important but just a small adjustment to the story. One would have to be familiar with the armament used to fully understand the problems associated with use and the soldiers complaints and troubles in the field.

Great bit in David Hackworth's book About Face about talking to his men about the pieces of crap weapons they were carrying, then walking up to pile of mud, pulling out a muddy AK, and firing it with no issues.

I'm sure there were powerful congressmen with suppliers in their districts making sure their government contracts weren't impacted.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

One thing that wasn't a surprise was that the Mao/Stalin-its economic theories failed miserably.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I thought McNamara was a big influencer to go with the AR platform and away from the M-16 30 caliber round. The idea was that soldiers could carry far more ammo in the field but sadly it took several rounds to stop an enemy combatant with the 5.56 x 45 round vs the 7.62 x 51 round. The M-16 was far superior in kill ration and stopping power. It would have been my choice if my life was on the line. A previous poster noted that American soldiers would grab an AK-47 out of the mud and fire it. The AK was the superior weapon in a jungle war. Nothing stopped the AK from firing. An amazing weapon.

 

[07mantle]

You hear/read that frequently but this show already gave two instances of how JFK pursued policies he didnt really believe in, but thought they would enhance his re-election odds.
I suspect he would have kept enlarging the war just as LBJ did, (cause everything kinda made sense at the time)but w/o being able to enact the civil rights and poverty stuff LBJ did.
Not sure JFK really had any convictions.

A great book on the period and administrations is "Rememberng America" by Richard Goodwin...the guy from Quiz Show, who worked for all of them.

In actuality JFK had signed a presential order to start the drawdown of troops in Vietnam ...which LBJ rescinded only several days after the assassination of JFK ... as far as civil rights ...those were things that LBJ did his best to drag his feet on when JFK actually was trying to support and then after he became president ...found politically expedient to push and then get credit for. LBJ was the worst criminal to ever be president ...he would have been going to jail had he not 'ascended' to the presidency ...as part of probably the darkest moment in our countries history

as far as doing things to help in one's try to be reflected ...Nixon did the same in getting soldiers out of Vietnam ... nothing unusual in those political tactics

 

[Obliviax]

In actuality JFK had signed a presential order to start the drawdown of troops in Vietnam ...which LBJ rescinded only several days after the assassination of JFK ... as far as civil rights ...those were things that LBJ did his best to drag his feet on when JFK actually was trying to support and then after he became president ...found politically expedient to push and then get credit for. LBJ was the worst criminal to ever be president ...he would have been going to jail had he not 'ascended' to the presidency ...as part of probably the darkest moment in our countries history

as far as doing things to help in one's try to be reflected ...Nixon did the same in getting soldiers out of Vietnam ... nothing unusual in those political tactics

Johnson was a horrible president...horrible. I am not sure why history doesn't recognize that. LBJ did things that were politically expedient to keep himself in power. Some of the recordings of him saying things are shocking. Honestly, if you gave me the choice between Nixon and Johnson, I'd take Nixon every day of the week and twice on Sunday. At least with Nixon, you knew what you were dealing with.

 

[emrtmakesshiteup]

I may be mistaken but I believe the major problems were with the AR 15's. They are complicated weapons compared to the AK-47's which will shoot in horrible conditions. The M-16 was considered more reliable and since it was a 30 caliber bore it was more deadly with one shot over the 223 bore AR rifle. Many cases of AR jams in critical situations were recored during the Vietnam War. Owning an AR exemplifies the required cleanliness to operate that weapon reliably. You can imagine lugging it around a jungle and the mud and sand constantly infiltrating parts of the rifle creating possible friction and jamming potential. It's not that important but just a small adjustment to the story. One would have to be familiar with the armament used to fully understand the problems associated with use and the soldiers complaints and troubles in the field.

Some confusion here! The M16 was and is .223 caliber. Never, never, ever was 30 caliber. And I will tell you I never saw an M14 (30) carried by regular grunts either. My 16 never jammed even boot deep in mud during the monsoon season, although it was common for us to spray the barrel with insect repellant to cool it during fire fights. Was that necessary or just passed on down from grunt to grunt over the years?

 

[Carl Spackler]

Some confusion here! The M16 was and is .223 caliber. Never, never, ever was 30 caliber. And I will tell you I never saw an M14 (30) carried by regular grunts either. My 16 never jammed even boot deep in mud during the monsoon season, although it was common for us to spray the barrel with insect repellant to cool it during fire fights. Was that necessary or just passed on down from grunt to grunt over the years?

My mistake, thought the 16 was the old 30 cal. but it was reliable. The AR's were not.

 

[Art]

I thought McNamara was a big influencer to go with the AR platform and away from the M-16 30 caliber round. The idea was that soldiers could carry far more ammo in the field but sadly it took several rounds to stop an enemy combatant with the 5.56 x 45 round vs the 7.62 x 51 round. The M-16 was far superior in kill ration and stopping power. It would have been my choice if my life was on the line. A previous poster noted that American soldiers would grab an AK-47 out of the mud and fire it. The AK was the superior weapon in a jungle war. Nothing stopped the AK from firing. An amazing weapon.

I think you're confusing weapons. The M16 as deployed fired a 5.56 round. It replaced the M14 which fired a 7.62.

The AR15 was the Colt platform on which the M16 was based. It was only shipped to Vietnam in limited quantity on a trial basis. Most troops continued to carry the M14 until modifications were made to the AR15 to make it the M16. And it was, indeed, the M16 that was plagued with reliability issues.

 

[07mantle]

aside from being totally self absorbed with his political ambitions ... Johnson was involved in stealing elections ..with the direct assistance of powerful backers, implicated in several murders including his own sister ...not to mention many of those 58,00 soldiers who died in Vietnam, was fond of courting big companies who benefited from the war and would have gone to jail with his involvement in the Billy Sol Estes scandal involving fraud ... and would have not been on JFK's ticket for reelection. ?.and then there is the small detail of his complicency in the assassination and his subsequent cover up with The Warren Commission along with Hoover

Johnson was a horrible president...horrible. I am not sure why history doesn't recognize that. LBJ did things that were politically expedient to keep himself in power. Some of the recordings of him saying things are shocking. Honestly, if you gave me the choice between Nixon and Johnson, I'd take Nixon every day of the week and twice on Sunday. At least with Nixon, you knew what you were dealing with.

 

[cntblvitsbutter]

Almost forgot the most important thing I learned from the series, especially in these times. Nixon made a covert handshake deal with the NV to scuttle peace talks before the election because the expectations for peace were raising Humphrey's poll numbers. The evidence was so overwhelming that LBJ called it treason. In the end, Nixon won with only a .7% margin.

 

[cntblvitsbutter]

I think you're confusing weapons. The M16 as deployed fired a 5.56 round. It replaced the M14 which fired a 7.62.

The AR15 was the Colt platform on which the M16 was based. It was only shipped to Vietnam in limited quantity on a trial basis. Most troops continued to carry the M14 until modifications were made to the AR15 to make it the M16. And it was, indeed, the M16 that was plagued with reliability issues.

James Fallows in "National Defense" argues that it was the army's switch to ball powder that led to the '16's reliability problems.

 

[YogiMan71]

I watched the first 6 episodes then too many bad memories of friends lost or with long term PTSD and other issues started to re-surface and i decided to quit watching it.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I think you're confusing weapons. The M16 as deployed fired a 5.56 round. It replaced the M14 which fired a 7.62.

The AR15 was the Colt platform on which the M16 was based. It was only shipped to Vietnam in limited quantity on a trial basis. Most troops continued to carry the M14 until modifications were made to the AR15 to make it the M16. And it was, indeed, the M16 that was plagued with reliability issues.

Thanks Art, I was confused to the numbering and platform. Thought the AR the the most unreliable rifle and did not realize that the 14 and 16 were different calibers. I'd carry a 14 anyday as it could be utilized as a sniper rifle meaning it can "reach out and touch someone" as the old telephone commercial said. Firepower, dependability and stopping power are irreplaceable.

 

[psuflyguy]

A sincere and deeply respectful thank you to all of you for sharing your experiences and thoughts. I've found the series incredibly moving and thought provoking. A huge thank you to all who served.

 

[emrtmakesshiteup]

Thanks Art, I was confused to the numbering and platform. Thought the AR the the most unreliable rifle and did not realize that the 14 and 16 were different calibers. I'd carry a 14 anyday as it could be utilized as a sniper rifle meaning it can "reach out and touch someone" as the old telephone commercial said. Firepower, dependability and stopping power are irreplaceable.

There is no one to snipe in triple canopy jungle! It's all about the number of rounds delivered in x amount of time. I saw a lot of dead NVA just because of our areas of operation, yet in eight months I only had one opportunity to shoot at anyone. All infantry units have an artillery officer (Forward Observer) hump with them. Our company's FO had a yellow sticker on his M16 stock that read "New England Skeet Club." A soldier jumps out of a bunker, perhaps 25/30 yards in front of me. It had been heavily hit from the air and with artillery so it was kind of open. His AK had this really, really blond stock. I still can bring the scene up vividly! My eyes focused on it and it was enough for me to give pause. Is it the FO? It was all about how my father taught me to hunt safely. I really have great reaction times too. I still catch things I bump off a table and up until two years ago (my wife threatened me!) I could still hold my own against my brothers heavyweights with my quickness. Anyway, I'm glad I didn't kill him! Not saying my grazing fire didn't do any damage, I just don't know if I was responsible for specific casualties!
One other thing I'll share. If you live near mountainous terrain and have a topo map with a lot of ridges and contour lines, envision how difficult it is to know exactly where you are. In that war, as opposed to a later deployment, two artillery starburst rounds were shot. With your trusty little GI compass you then triangulated your position. Can you believe that? You can't tell me the rounds exploded exactly over a map point! Our distance form those points were estimates also. Of course the incoming was over compensated because of that reason and the FO would incrementally bring it in closer but it also many times enabled enemy to escape.

 

[Carl Spackler]

There is no one to snipe in triple canopy jungle! It's all about the number of rounds delivered in x amount of time. I saw a lot of dead NVA just because of our areas of operation, yet in eight months I only had one opportunity to shoot at anyone. All infantry units have an artillery officer (Forward Observer) hump with them. Our company's FO had a yellow sticker on his M16 stock that read "New England Skeet Club." A soldier jumps out of a bunker, perhaps 25/30 yards in front of me. It had been heavily hit from the air and with artillery so it was kind of open. His AK had this really, really blond stock. I still can bring the scene up vividly! My eyes focused on it and it was enough for me to give pause. Is it the FO? It was all about how my father taught me to hunt safely. I really have great reaction times too. I still catch things I bump off a table and up until two years ago (my wife threatened me!) I could still hold my own against my brothers heavyweights with my quickness. Anyway, I'm glad I didn't kill him! Not saying my grazing fire didn't do any damage, I just don't know if I was responsible for specific casualties!
One other thing I'll share. If you live near mountainous terrain and have a topo map with a lot of ridges and contour lines, envision how difficult it is to know exactly where you are. In that war, as opposed to a later deployment, two artillery starburst rounds were shot. With your trusty little GI compass you then triangulated your position. Can you believe that? You can't tell me the rounds exploded exactly over a map point! Our distance form those points were estimates also. Of course the incoming was over compensated because of that reason and the FO would incrementally bring it in closer but it also many times enabled enemy to escape.

First, I sorry you had to experience this, it had to be hell on earth with the constant tension of being targeted at any moment. Second, yes trying to read a topo with a compass and rounds whizzing around your head, wow. Plus I agree, how could an aircraft drop a pin point accurate round anywhere, pure luck. I can't imagine trying to use a topo in an aircraft to drop any armament accurately. Your reaction time must be off charts. I do think mine has improved over time and that makes no sense but I too can catch things dropped or moving far better than in my earlier years. I think it has to do with a calmness and a focus that I did not use very well in my earlier years. I really have noted that I can grab dropped pills, glasses, etc. where I'd have miss them in my 40's and even early 50's. Strange but true.

Your comment on the jungle and not seeing very far is well noted yet there were times and places where a longer opportunity was presented. Not in jungle warfare in any amount, yes. You had to have nerves of steel and wild reaction time to do what you did sir. My hat is off to you and thank you for your service. I remember the disrespect soldiers received coming home from Nam very well. A sad state of affairs in our country, you likely were drafted as man others and were forced to serve not that you did so unwillingly but yet it wasn't by choice for many. To be abused coming home is a sin. I was just young enough to miss the draft by my number was 64, a trip to Vietnam for sure had the draft still been rolling along. Glad you endured it all and are here to regale us with this story. I have friends who still have nightmares regarding their service, it lives with you for a long time.

 

[Go Lions]

A lot of interesting comments and observations. These documentaries can be very educational. Combat veterans don't talk much about their experiences because it is not something that people with normal lives can relate with easily. So if they talk at all, it is among themselves.
I served in Vietnam during 1968 including the TET Offensive. I commanded a Heavy Automatic Weapons unit (Dusters, Quad 50s) and later was the XO of a Field Artillery Battery doing air mobile "hip shoots" in support of infantry operations. For the last six
weeks I was the Battalion S2. This was as a Lieutenant commissioned from Penn State Army ROTC. The Penn State ROTC programs were highly regarded by the military back in the 1960s and I would imagine they have maintained that reputation.

Another excellent documentary series is the 10,000 Day War from the early 80s. I think it was a Canadian production. You can order it from Amazon.

For first hand accounts there are quite a few books that have been written by Vietnam veterans in the form of memoirs. Here is one by an Army crew chief who commanded a Duster in I Corp with the Marines.

https://vva.org/books-in-review/dusterman-by-joseph-m-belardo-sr/

He was in a Duster Battery commanded by Vin Tedesco who graduated from Penn State in 1964 and became a full Colonel in the Army artillery. Vin has been active at Penn State running for a BOT seat under the Alumni elections process.

https://trustees.psu.edu/vote/2012_Alumni/2012 Candidate Web Tedesco.pdf

Documentaries such as the current PBS series give great historical perspectives but for personal accounts the best way to get a third person account are these "memoirs" publications because they go into the details that never get discussed in person with friends and family. There are literally dozens of these kinds of publications and the ones I have read are always interesting.

Belardo's book is amazing. And Vin is awesome. Got to hear Joe and Vin talk and tell stories with my Dad (Bob Lauver) a few years back. Your stories need to be told. It's important for us "kids" to know a little bit about what our Dad's (and Mom's) experienced. We'll never understand the experience, but it helps us understand the person. This program is creating conversation.... Which is important.

 

[LionJim]

I have followed this thread carefully and am struck by the consistent level of respect shown in individual posts, especially given the volatility of the subject. Perhaps it is a byproduct of our respect for the sacrifice of both our troops and the people of Vietnam. I especially appreciate the perspectives of those who served during that terrible time. It is a reminder that no matter how much we have studied this tragedy from a distance, most of us cannot know what it was really like.

 

[Ct. Lion]

A lot of excellent thoughts and observations. I thought the parts of the series I viewed were educational and as balanced as possible. No 10 part series is going to cover every aspect of something as complicated as the Vietnam War. I wrote my Vietnam memoirs in 10 chapters for an author who is writing a book to be published this Fall by Amazon (The Boys of Battery B) and only skimmed my experiences so that I could cover all 12 months that I was there. Those 10 chapters of mine will be condensed further so that other memoirs can be included. You can see how even a dozen hours of a TV series can really only be an over-view and miss a lot of important details
.
Some other observations.

--The M16 issue has been covered mostly and my units did not use personal weapons much since we were artillery and functioned in crews but I did not see the malfunction issue over there. Cleaning personal weapons was a daily function and it makes a difference though that is tough to do when you are on an infantry operation and may need that weapon at any time. The M16 had superior fire power rates over the AK47 and though the bullet size is smaller (.223 v. .308) having fire power superiority keeps the enemy heads down and creates more casualties. The muzzle velocity of an M16 is significantly faster than a AK47 and does serious damage to a human so I would choose an M16 over the M14 or AK47. Just a personal choice issue.

--We learned that wars like Korea and Vietnam, on the door step of a country like China is not a winning combination since it precludes putting boots into the enemy territory and therefore, the war is nothing but a holding action. The next big wars were in the middle east and they were conducted with Shock and Awe, unencumbered by geographical proximity and terrain such that the military had far more options to execute a complete victory. Afghanistan, conversely, offers a tribal society with a sanctuary in Pakistan and is nothing more than a holding action. So we learn some things and adapt correctly yet still pick losing situations and get bogged down. At least we have stayed out of Africa for the most part.

--One quick artillery FO story to add to the FO conversation above in another post. On an operation with Australian Special Forces in the Dalat area where U.S. units did not usually go for some political reasons, I was challenged by the Australian Captain, who was the unit commander, to drop a smoke round on a hill on the other side of a small valley. So using my map and compass, which I would follow all day long as we moved through the jungle and forests, I plotted the coordinates and gave them to the Captain. He said I was wrong and he gave me his coordinates. He said my coordinates were where we were standing. So I shot a "high smoke" round which would give us an idea of where my coordinates were. The smoke round burst above us meaning that the high explosive round would land somewhere on the hill where we were standing. There was no GPS in those days and losing your bearings was easy to do. With a few adjustments I was back on track and we moved off.

 

[emrtmakesshiteup]

A lot of excellent thoughts and observations. I thought the parts of the series I viewed were educational and as balanced as possible. No 10 part series is going to cover every aspect of something as complicated as the Vietnam War. I wrote my Vietnam memoirs in 10 chapters for an author who is writing a book to be published this Fall by Amazon (The Boys of Battery B) and only skimmed my experiences so that I could cover all 12 months that I was there. Those 10 chapters of mine will be condensed further so that other memoirs can be included. You can see how even a dozen hours of a TV series can really only be an over-view and miss a lot of important details
.
Some other observations.

--The M16 issue has been covered mostly and my units did not use personal weapons much since we were artillery and functioned in crews but I did not see the malfunction issue over there. Cleaning personal weapons was a daily function and it makes a difference though that is tough to do when you are on an infantry operation and may need that weapon at any time. The M16 had superior fire power rates over the AK47 and though the bullet size is smaller (.223 v. .308) having fire power superiority keeps the enemy heads down and creates more casualties. The muzzle velocity of an M16 is significantly faster than a AK47 and does serious damage to a human so I would choose an M16 over the M14 or AK47. Just a personal choice issue.

--We learned that wars like Korea and Vietnam, on the door step of a country like China is not a winning combination since it precludes putting boots into the enemy territory and therefore, the war is nothing but a holding action. The next big wars were in the middle east and they were conducted with Shock and Awe, unencumbered by geographical proximity and terrain such that the military had far more options to execute a complete victory. Afghanistan, conversely, offers a tribal society with a sanctuary in Pakistan and is nothing more than a holding action. So we learn some things and adapt correctly yet still pick losing situations and get bogged down. At least we have stayed out of Africa for the most part.

--One quick artillery FO story to add to the FO conversation above in another post. On an operation with Australian Special Forces in the Dalat area where U.S. units did not usually go for some political reasons, I was challenged by the Australian Captain, who was the unit commander, to drop a smoke round on a hill on the other side of a small valley. So using my map and compass, which I would follow all day long as we moved through the jungle and forests, I plotted the coordinates and gave them to the Captain. He said I was wrong and he gave me his coordinates. He said my coordinates were where we were standing. So I shot a "high smoke" round which would give us an idea of where my coordinates were. The smoke round burst above us meaning that the high explosive round would land somewhere on the hill where we were standing. There was no GPS in those days and losing your bearings was easy to do. With a few adjustments I was back on track and we moved off.

I rest my case ("two artillery starburst rounds were shot. With your trusty little GI compass you then triangulated your position. Can you believe that?"), however, I didn't realize it was quite that bad, yikes! lol

 

[lein]

Submitted without comment

http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/...ointed-following-pbs-vietnam-war-documentary/

 

[Ct. Lion]

Lein, excellent find, thanks for posting.

“We cannot tell every story,” Burns said. “Even if it were 180 hours, people would say, ‘You left this out.’ What you want to do is tell a story in which this Gold Star mother had to stand in for lots of Gold Star mothers, and this Saigon civilian has to stand in for many Saigon civilians, and this ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) marine has to stand in for many, many ARVN marines. But we feel that we put our arms around everything.”

In defense of Burns, he is 100% correct, you can't tell every story in any documentary, or book, or lecture, etc. So you take his effort as a piece of the story, and though he feels that he put his arms around everything, it is impossible to do that too. You could have a PHD in the subject of the Vietnam War and still not put your arms around everything.
So you watch as many documentaries as possible, read as many books as you can, and read the personal accounts in veteran's memoirs.
And when you do, you start to realize that one person can not easily stand in for many because every Gold Star mother has her own story that is personalized and just as valid as the next. And the same is true for every individual that was involved in, or with, this war.

 

[Ct. Lion]

(Belardo's book is amazing. And Vin is awesome. Got to hear Joe and Vin talk and tell stories with my Dad (Bob Lauver) a few years back. Your stories need to be told. It's important for us "kids" to know a little bit about what our Dad's (and Mom's) experienced. We'll never understand the experience, but it helps us understand the person. This program is creating conversation.... Which is important.)

Go Lions, I know your Mom and Dad (Bob and Sue Lauver), I have met them at the National Dusters, Quads, Searchlights Association annual meetings. If you get a chance, join us one year and meet the guys in your Dad's crew.
In fact, in the link below, if you all scroll down a bit to a reference to the last Gold Star Mothers trip to Vietnam that was run by Bob and Sue Lauver you will get to see first hand exactly what the thoughts and feelings of a Gold Star mother are when she stands on the exact spot where her son died. No need for a surrogate explanation, just read the trip report and you will be there too.

http://www.ndqsa.com/

Our organization ran more Gold Star Mothers trips to Vietnam than any other U.S. organization. Your Dad, Bob Lauver, ran those trips. Bob Lauver is an American patriot and a Vietnam Veteran.

 

[NitNE73]

I avoided watching for awhile when the series first started as I didn't think I wanted to relive that period. I changed my mind and watched the first episode, and then couldn't stop myself from watching the rest.

I was reminded about a number of things that had been stored deep in the crevices of my 67-year-old brain and other things that I thought I knew were cleared up in the series. I had to watch it alone as I knew there would be some tears shed.

I hated that war with a passion. I had a low draft number in the first lottery and was able to get into the National Guard, thus avoiding the draft. My father, who I thought to be the most conservative man on earth when I was 19, suggested Canada to me as an option, and I thought at the time that he was egging me into an argument. Turns out that by 1970 he saw the corruption in the government of S Vietnam, and didn't think we should be there.

I still feel guilty about joining the Guard while a number of my friends fought and were wounded. I lost two close friends as a result of the war.

Hindsight gives us the ability to view history with 20/20 vision, and honest mistakes were made. I detested Nixon when he was president and was enraged when I saw that he interfered with Johnson's peace initiative prior to the 1968 election. He was a traitor to his country.

 

[Go Lions]

(Belardo's book is amazing. And Vin is awesome. Got to hear Joe and Vin talk and tell stories with my Dad (Bob Lauver) a few years back. Your stories need to be told. It's important for us "kids" to know a little bit about what our Dad's (and Mom's) experienced. We'll never understand the experience, but it helps us understand the person. This program is creating conversation.... Which is important.)

Go Lions, I know your Mom and Dad (Bob and Sue Lauver), I have met them at the National Dusters, Quads, Searchlights Association annual meetings. If you get a chance, join us one year and meet the guys in your Dad's crew.
In fact, in the link below, if you all scroll down a bit to a reference to the last Gold Star Mothers trip to Vietnam that was run by Bob and Sue Lauver you will get to see first hand exactly what the thoughts and feelings of a Gold Star mother are when she stands on the exact spot where her son died. No need for a surrogate explanation, just read the trip report and you will be there too.

http://www.ndqsa.com/

Our organization ran more Gold Star Mothers trips to Vietnam than any other U.S. organization. Your Dad, Bob Lauver, ran those trips. Bob Lauver is an American patriot and a Vietnam Veteran.

Thank you for this. I have been to 2 of the reunions, Savannah and Nashville and I will be at the next one as well! I look forward to meeting you in person!

The reunions have been very, very important to me. Not only because of my relationship with my Dad, but also because it just isn't talked about enough. The stories NEED to be told. And as the "kids," we NEED to hear them.

 

[Nitwit]

I avoided watching for awhile when the series first started as I didn't think I wanted to relive that period. I changed my mind and watched the first episode, and then couldn't stop myself from watching the rest.

I was reminded about a number of things that had been stored deep in the crevices of my 67-year-old brain and other things that I thought I knew were cleared up in the series. I had to watch it alone as I knew there would be some tears shed.

I hated that war with a passion. I had a low draft number in the first lottery and was able to get into the National Guard, thus avoiding the draft. My father, who I thought to be the most conservative man on earth when I was 19, suggested Canada to me as an option, and I thought at the time that he was egging me into an argument. Turns out that by 1970 he saw the corruption in the government of S Vietnam, and didn't think we should be there.

I still feel guilty about joining the Guard while a number of my friends fought and were wounded. I lost two close friends as a result of the war.

Hindsight gives us the ability to view history with 20/20 vision, and honest mistakes were made. I detested Nixon when he was president and was enraged when I saw that he interfered with Johnson's peace initiative prior to the 1968 election. He was a traitor to his country.

I was in your class and wound up in the reserves also. I never felt guilty about it. We were also at risk for being called up and invested 6 years of that nonsense in order to choose the safer but honorable route. The whole thing was a mess. We served in our own way in a manner which was legally available.

 

[junior1]

I avoided watching for awhile when the series first started as I didn't think I wanted to relive that period. I changed my mind and watched the first episode, and then couldn't stop myself from watching the rest.

I was reminded about a number of things that had been stored deep in the crevices of my 67-year-old brain and other things that I thought I knew were cleared up in the series. I had to watch it alone as I knew there would be some tears shed.

I hated that war with a passion. I had a low draft number in the first lottery and was able to get into the National Guard, thus avoiding the draft. My father, who I thought to be the most conservative man on earth when I was 19, suggested Canada to me as an option, and I thought at the time that he was egging me into an argument. Turns out that by 1970 he saw the corruption in the government of S Vietnam, and didn't think we should be there.

I still feel guilty about joining the Guard while a number of my friends fought and were wounded. I lost two close friends as a result of the war.

Hindsight gives us the ability to view history with 20/20 vision, and honest mistakes were made. I detested Nixon when he was president and was enraged when I saw that he interfered with Johnson's peace initiative prior to the 1968 election. He was a traitor to his country.

I served in Vietnam. You have no reason to feel guilty about joining the National Guard. The "rules" as to which individuals were eligible for the draft were insane...if you're married and have a child-deferred: if you have a sibling serving-deferred: college student-deferred: and on and on. You followed the rules as they existed at the time. The Guard is not a picnic-thank you for your service.

 

[Ct. Lion]

No one should ever feel guilty for serving in the Reserves or National Guard. Both have a very important role and the active military today relies on both more than ever.
Even in Vietnam many who served there were reservists. For instance, every ROTC officer was a reservist unless they were offered a permanent position such as Regular Army.
I did two years active duty, two years active reserve in a unit in Secaucus N.J., and two years in an inactive reserve status. Not much different than a standard reserve commitment.
I have never heard a Vietnam Vet make a derogatory comment about a member of the Reserves or National Guard.

 

[JosephNit]

My thinking on Vietnam changed over the years. Growing up in the 60’s I viewed the war as an important chapter in what Kennedy called our nation’s “long twilight struggle” against the global empire of totalitarian Communism that posed an existential threat to this country. In a way, I still think that.

However, as the years passed, I came to believe that the strategy, tactics, and objectives were tragically mistaken. Feeding 18-year old kids into a jungle meat grinder with no other mission than to survive for 365 days while killing as many of the enemy as possible is wrong both as a matter of policy and morality. MacArthur put it this way: In war there is no substitute for victory.

One opinion on Vietnam that hasn’t changed, and I say this having done a (non-combat) tour in the Marines in the late 70’s after college: Our guys fought as well there as any Americans ever have anywhere anytime. And those people on the home front who disrespected them, spat on them, or waved Vietcong flags in their faces were contemptible human beings.

Ultimately, this is a problem I had with parts of Burns’s documentary. Maybe I’m too sensitive to the issue, but it seemed to me that he downplayed the history of disrespect or drew some sort of moral equivalence between those who fought and those who spat. But there is not remotely any equivalence -- not then and not now.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Just watching this now and finished the Tet episode. Pretty infuriating even though I was only 7 when the war ended and didn’t lose anyone close to me.

Proud of those kids who fought bravely while being deceived and lied to by their leaders, but also disgusted hearing about some other My Lai type episodes committed by out of control units - Tiger Force chief among them. There’s no amount of trauma, etc that excuses wanton killing of innocent civilians - we have to be better than that. I can’t even fathom acting like a Japanese soldier during the Rape on Nanking or an SS officer in the Ukraine. Those guys should be prosecuted to this day.

On a side note, I’ve never fully appreciated the song ending that episode - Whiter Shade of Pale. What an incredible song.