Add Gundy and Fickell to the list of once hot commodities whose stock crumbled

[Jerry]

It's a pretty long list actually. Guys who had a few good years, or maybe only one or two, and became much sought after only to have the bloom come off the rose in fairly short order. Going back a few years, I could easily come up with 15 names whose success was short-lived or turned out to be busts relatively quickly.

This thought occurred to me after sifting through the comments of the Oklahoma State and Wisconsin fan bases this afternoon when I saw the names of their two coaches trending on Twitter. Brutal.

In fairness to Gundy, he's no flash in the pan. In fact, he's sort of like Kirk Ferentz. Never won a national championship or came close to it but compiled a long record of success. So maybe it's not fair to group Gundy and Fickell together. I mean, when you think about it, you could put Franklin in the same category as Gundy and Ferentz. Good but not breaking through.

Regardless, the truth is that there are few saviors out there. Saban...Meyer...I'm trying to think of another name on the contemporary coaching scene who deserves the adjective "elite," but it's not coming to me. I mean, you could get lucky and find a diamond in the rough but it's a crapshoot and the odds are heavily against it.

 

[bcspsu]

It's a pretty long list actually. Guys who had a few good years, or maybe only one or two, and became much sought after only to have the bloom come off the rose in fairly short order. Going back a few years, I could easily come up with 15 names whose success was short-lived or turned out to be busts relatively quickly.

This thought occurred to me after sifting through the comments of the Oklahoma State and Wisconsin fan bases this afternoon when I saw the names of their two coaches trending on Twitter. Brutal.

In fairness to Gundy, he's no flash in the pan. In fact, he's sort of like Kirk Ferentz. Never won a national championship or came close to it but compiled a long record of success. So maybe it's not fair to group Gundy and Fickell together. I mean, when you think about it, you could put Franklin in the same category as Gundy and Ferentz. Good but not breaking through.

Regardless, the truth is that there are few saviors out there. Saban...Meyer...I'm trying to think of another name on the contemporary coaching scene who deserves the adjective "elite," but it's not coming to me. I mean, you could get lucky and find a diamond in the rough but it's a crapshoot and the odds are heavily against it.

Wisconsin appears to be a program that’s about to fall like Nebraska did and, like Nebraska, it will be very hard for them to recover.

 

[m.knox]

Read the article linked below re: Wisconsin.

I thought Fickell would do more.......................


https://www.si.com/college/wisconsi...-understand-wisconsin-s-identity-01jchbcnma2b

In Year 2 of the Luke Fickell era, the Wisconsin football team has had an up-and-down season, resulting in a 5-4 record. Former Badgers head coach and athletic director Barry Alvarez is struggling to find what the team's current identity is.

"I can't answer that," Alvarez responded when asked what the team's current identity is. "I'd like to see it myself. When I took the job I said, one thing we're going to do — I looked at the type of players I felt that we could consistently recruit, and you look around the state, I'd have a summer camp and you'd have 500 kids there and 300 of them are linemen."

 

[Safety Blitz]

I don’t think Gundy was ever going anywhere. He’s still a God on the Okla State campus. It will probably take a stretch of poor seasons for fans to completely turn on him.
I, too, expected more from Fickell. Figured he would be moving up the ladder after 3-5 years. He’s trending in the wrong direction and better get things turned around very soon.
I’ll be interested to see what Alabama does on the field the next couple years. I was a bit surprised with the DeBoer hiring. And Saban would be a real tough act to follow.

 

[tboyer]

Wisconsin's success was always kind of gravity-defying. They never recruited at a very high level but they could develop home-grown o-linemen (their lines were always among the biggest in college football) and their OL program attracted just enough skill players (mainly running backs) and a few start on D.

The program's downfall actually started with a run of what was seen at the time as good recruiting. Chryst, a gifted offensive coach, attracted some national QB recruits, among the highest ranked recruits Wisconsin had ever attracted. Wisconsin was going to throw the ball more. But I think 2 of these highly ranked QB recruits turned out to be busts, and meanwhile Chryst kind of neglected the O-line program, which eroded the foundation.

I don't know if Wisky can come back in the way Alvarez wants. Now, gigantic offensive lines are now pretty commonplace in college football. In fact, both Wisconsin and Iowa seem to be struggling right now in the new recruiting/portal environment. Top players are a year or two away from the NFL so what they want is state of the art position coaching and experience in sophisticated schemes. Not clear the Wisky or Iowa formula of developing players over 4-5 years can succeed now.

 

[Jerry]

It's a pretty long list actually. Guys who had a few good years, or maybe only one or two, and became much sought after only to have the bloom come off the rose in fairly short order. Going back a few years, I could easily come up with 15 names whose success was short-lived or turned out to be busts relatively quickly.

This thought occurred to me after sifting through the comments of the Oklahoma State and Wisconsin fan bases this afternoon when I saw the names of their two coaches trending on Twitter. Brutal.

In fairness to Gundy, he's no flash in the pan. In fact, he's sort of like Kirk Ferentz. Never won a national championship or came close to it but compiled a long record of success. So maybe it's not fair to group Gundy and Fickell together. I mean, when you think about it, you could put Franklin in the same category as Gundy and Ferentz. Good but not breaking through.

Regardless, the truth is that there are few saviors out there. Saban...Meyer...I'm trying to think of another name on the contemporary coaching scene who deserves the adjective "elite," but it's not coming to me. I mean, you could get lucky and find a diamond in the rough but it's a crapshoot and the odds are heavily against it.

And then there's Kirby Smart who a couple years ago was hailed as a coaching ace. I've seen Georgia play a couple times this year, including tonight, and they've looked totally unprepared.

Maybe they'll snap out of it in the 2nd half but at the moment they don't look like playoff material. Oh wait, I forgot, it's the SEC. It just means more.

 

[OKLionFan]

I can’t agree with you on Gundy Jerry. Until this year Gundy had led the Cowboys to a bowl 18 seasons in a row. Perhaps more impressive than that, he's won 12 of those games. That ties him for the sixth-most bowl wins in college football history and puts him second among active head coaches behind only Mack Brown (14 wins). His career record is 169-88, and he has arguably done more for Oklahoma State football than anyone else not named Boone Pickens.

 

[m.knox]

At this point, one has to wonder if Ferentz isn't on the list. The half time reporting was not kind to him whatsoever.

 

[OKLionFan]

Also regarding Grundy, during the game against Colorado they mentioned that he has lost 14 starters to injuries this year. Think what that would do to any program.

 

[MacNit2.0]

It's a pretty long list actually. Guys who had a few good years, or maybe only one or two, and became much sought after only to have the bloom come off the rose in fairly short order. Going back a few years, I could easily come up with 15 names whose success was short-lived or turned out to be busts relatively quickly.

This thought occurred to me after sifting through the comments of the Oklahoma State and Wisconsin fan bases this afternoon when I saw the names of their two coaches trending on Twitter. Brutal.

In fairness to Gundy, he's no flash in the pan. In fact, he's sort of like Kirk Ferentz. Never won a national championship or came close to it but compiled a long record of success. So maybe it's not fair to group Gundy and Fickell together. I mean, when you think about it, you could put Franklin in the same category as Gundy and Ferentz. Good but not breaking through.

Regardless, the truth is that there are few saviors out there. Saban...Meyer...I'm trying to think of another name on the contemporary coaching scene who deserves the adjective "elite," but it's not coming to me. I mean, you could get lucky and find a diamond in the rough but it's a crapshoot and the odds are heavily against it.

Are either “men?”

 

[NewEra 2014]

Also regarding Grundy, during the game against Colorado they mentioned that he has lost 14 starters to injuries this year. Think what that would do to any program.

I was at that CU- OSU game, and OSU quit really early in that game. I have never seen anything like that from one of Gundy’s teams before.

 

[LandoComando]

And then there's Kirby Smart who a couple years ago was hailed as a coaching ace. I've seen Georgia play a couple times this year, including tonight, and they've looked totally unprepared.

Maybe they'll snap out of it in the 2nd half but at the moment they don't look like playoff material. Oh wait, I forgot, it's the SEC. It just means more.

LOL--Kirby's the best in the business--they do play down to competition and struggle with Bama but his track record speaks for itself
And...eventually...they found a way tonight. Just like we do.

 

[hawk224]

Wisconsin's success was always kind of gravity-defying. They never recruited at a very high level but they could develop home-grown o-linemen (their lines were always among the biggest in college football) and their OL program attracted just enough skill players (mainly running backs) and a few starts on D.

The program's downfall actually started with a run of what was seen at the time as good recruiting. Chryst, a gifted offensive coach, attracted some national QB recruits, among the highest ranked recruits Wisconsin had ever attracted. Wisconsin was going to throw the ball more. But I think 2 of these highly ranked QB recruits turned out to be busts, and meanwhile Chryst kind of neglected the O-line program, which eroded the foundation.

I don't know if Wisky can come back in the way Alvarez wants. Now, gigantic offensive lines are now pretty commonplace in college football. In fact, both Wisconsin and Iowa seem to be struggling right now in the new recruiting/portal environment. Top players are a year or two away from the NFL so what they want is state of the art position coaching and experience in sophisticated schemes. Not clear the Wisky or Iowa formula of developing players over 4-5 years can succeed now.

Not much has changed at Iowa in the new environment. We never got a lot of top players before, and we’re not going to get a lot going forward. The main way NIL could hurt developmental teams is if our best players started transferring, and at least so far at Iowa, that hasn’t been the case. IMO Fickell’s air raid was always going to be very tough to implement at Wisconsin. When Kirk retires in the not too distant future, Iowa is going to have to be very careful who they hire. You can win at Iowa, Wisconsin, etc but not the same way you would at other schools

 

[blair10]

Wisconsin appears to be a program that’s about to fall like Nebraska did and, like Nebraska, it will be very hard for them to recover.

Actually, Wisconsin and Nebraska are not comparable because Wisconsin has never been on top. Nebraska has won 5 National Titles and Wisconsin has zero.

 

[Jerry]

I can’t agree with you on Gundy Jerry. Until this year Gundy had led the Cowboys to a bowl 18 seasons in a row. Perhaps more impressive than that, he's won 12 of those games. That ties him for the sixth-most bowl wins in college football history and puts him second among active head coaches behind only Mack Brown (14 wins). His career record is 169-88, and he has arguably done more for Oklahoma State football than anyone else not named Boone Pickens.

Right, I noted Gundy's record of success in the OP and made a distinction between him and Fickell.

The common denominator that struck me yesterday was fan reaction both to yesterday's game and the seasons of both teams.. Not a lot of love for Gundy regardless of past success.

You mentioned Mack Brown. Look what happened to him: thanks for everything...don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I guess the larger point goes back to Franklin. He takes heat here for a bad game...a bad half...a bad quarter. And some people have often expressed the thought that others could do better. I mean, if we lose a first-round playoff game, you'll hear it again.

But the reality is there are rarely quick fixes when it comes to coaches and even the ones with established records of success wear out their welcome eventually. Meanwhile, there are a lot of flashes in the pan, guys like Fickell, but they don't even make it to "eventually."

 

[blair10]

Right, I noted Gundy's record of success in the OP and made a distinction between him and Fickell.

The common denominator that struck me yesterday was fan reaction both to yesterday's game and the seasons of both teams.. Not a lot of love for Gundy regardless of past success.

You mentioned Mack Brown. Look what happened to him: thanks for everything...don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I guess the larger point goes back to Franklin. He takes heat here for a bad game...a bad half...a bad quarter. And some people have often expressed the thought that others could do better. I mean, if we lose a first-round playoff game, you'll hear it again.

But the reality is there are rarely quick fixes when it comes to coaches and even the ones with established records of success wear out their welcome eventually. Meanwhile, there are a lot of flashes in the pan, guys like Fickell, but they don't even make it to "eventually."

Are you saying Franklin shouldn’t take heat for losing 90% of the time against a peer B1G competitor, having a losing bowl record, and having a very poor record against the better teams?

 

[Jerry]

Are you saying Franklin shouldn’t take heat for losing 90% of the time against a peer B1G competitor, having a losing bowl record, and having a very poor record against the better teams?

No, in fact I've dispensed some heat in his direction for that and other things in recent years.

He's paid a lot of money to do a certain job. Criticism, fair or unfair, comes with the territory.

But I do think a balance should be struck between being a cheerleader on the one extreme and a nay-sayer on the other.

In any case, my point is that people who believe there's an easy or obvious coaching fix waiting in the wings are kidding themselves. Dump Franklin and you could easily end up with a guy like Fickell who looked like a solid hire...until he didn't.

 

[blair10]

No, in fact I've dispensed some heat in his direction for that and other things in recent years.

He's paid a lot of money to do a certain job. Criticism, fair or unfair, comes with the territory.

But I do think a balance should be struck between being a cheerleader on the one extreme and a nay-sayer on the other.

In any case, my point is that people who believe there's an easy or obvious coaching fix waiting in the wings are kidding themselves. Dump Franklin and you could easily end up with a guy like Fickell who looked like a solid hire...until he didn't.

I agree with everything you have stated except the last paragraph. You can’t go through life afraid of making a change because something bad might happen. There is a reason B1G Athletic Directors are compensated so well. It is their job to take appropriate risks while in pursuit of better options. The inference that only Franklin can do a good job at Penn State is bad logic in my opinion. No coach is indispensable. Penn State will be just fine if Franklin moves to another opportunity.

 

[Jerry]

I agree with everything you have stated except the last paragraph. You can’t go through life afraid of making a change because something bad might happen. There is a reason B1G Athletic Directors are compensated so well. It is their job to take appropriate risks while in pursuit of better options. The inference that only Franklin can do a good job at Penn State is bad logic in my opinion. No coach is indispensable. Penn State will be just fine if Franklin moves to another opportunity.

I agree with you that no coach is indispensable. I'll go further than that. Unless a guy is a legend with lifetime tenure like Paterno or Bryant or a small handful of coaches in that category who are institutions at their schools -- I guess Ferentz is another example -- there typically comes a time when even a good coach reaches a certain ceiling. Things start to get stale. It's just not quite working anymore. At that point, you move on or get pushed on.

 

[lazydave841]

Also regarding Grundy, during the game against Colorado they mentioned that he has lost 14 starters to injuries this year. Think what that would do to any program.

14 you say? That considerably more than us.

 

[PSUSignore]

The teams that have been benefitting from being in the Big 10 West are getting some wake up calls. These teams have had a massive advantage for years. The jig is up, welcome to the real world.

 

[voltz99]

A lot of psu fans wanted fickel a couple years ago

 

[voltz99]

Are you saying Franklin shouldn’t take heat for losing 90% of the time against a peer B1G competitor, having a losing bowl record, and having a very poor record against the better teams?

Might want to check your math.

10-1.

Ps. Who had a losing record vs osu, um, and iowa from 95-2011?

 

[IANit]

I don’t think Gundy was ever going anywhere. He’s still a God on the Okla State campus. It will probably take a stretch of poor seasons for fans to completely turn on him.
I, too, expected more from Fickell. Figured he would be moving up the ladder after 3-5 years. He’s trending in the wrong direction and better get things turned around very soon.
I’ll be interested to see what Alabama does on the field the next couple years. I was a bit surprised with the DeBoer hiring. And Saban would be a real tough act to follow.

I think DeBoer will be fine. He has a history of learning from his mistakes and coming back better the next year. He had zero SEC experience, so this has hall been new to him. Fickell doesn't have that excuse. The Wisconsin games that are concerning if I'm Fickell's boss are the bad Iowa, Nebraska and Minnesota losses. He needs to win most of those consistently or he'll be looking for a new job.

 

[blair10]

Might want to check your math.

10-1.

Ps. Who had a losing record vs osu, um, and iowa from 95-2011?

Say what? 10 losses out of 11 games equals .9090 or 90.90 percent.

 

[tboyer]

Not much has changed at Iowa in the new environment. We never got a lot of top players before, and we’re not going to get a lot going forward. The main way NIL could hurt developmental teams is if our best players started transferring, and at least so far at Iowa, that hasn’t been the case. IMO Fickell’s air raid was always going to be very tough to implement at Wisconsin. When Kirk retires in the not too distant future, Iowa is going to have to be very careful who they hire. You can win at Iowa, Wisconsin, etc but not the same way you would at other schools

True. The way college football is evolving, skill players are relatively plentiful, but athletic big guys are in very short supply. Being competitive at the line of scrimmage is basically the whole game. Iowa has stayed competitive at the LOS under Ferentz; Wisconsin kind of lost their mojo on the OL and that undermined everything. Paterno tried to win the B1G with speed and finesse teams and didn't work because PSU's strength program was outdated and they just weren't strong enough up front. Franklin's entire tenure at PSU has seen a gradual upgrade of size, athleticism and depth on the OL and DL. It takes time.