Bo named B1G Wrestler of the Week
- Thread starter Tom McAndrew
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amazing he gets that much credit for 39 seconds of work, against an obviously inferior opponent!
And for pinning himselfamazing he gets that much credit for 39 seconds of work, against an obviously inferior opponent!
amazing he gets that much credit for 39 seconds of work, against an obviously inferior opponent!
And for taking the Surrender Cobra off the endangered species list.
Funny seeing so many people trying to convince themselves Bo pinned himself (not here so much but seeing it in lots of comments on Flo and elsewhere). Watching the replay it's clear that at one point his shoulders are flat, but for far less than a second, and his being there at all is not by Brooks' doing.
My interpretation of the rule has always been that, though the offensive wrestler can effectively pin himself, there needs to be some causal connection between the defensive wrestler and the pin. Here's the rule:
Since the rules don't define what it means by "held," I'm willing to interpret "held" broadly enough based on past practice to mean that very little need be done by the defensive wrestler to cause the offensive wrestler to "pin himself." But not so broad as to be deprived of all meaning. I interpret "held" to mean simply that the defensive wrestler had the intent to pin the offensive wrestler, usually indicated by some positional awareness, like, say, backing into the offensive wrestler in a crab ride.
Brooks's only intent there was to look less ridiculous as soon as possible, he had no awareness of where Bo's shoulders were. But again, to the extent Bo was ever flat it was for far less than even a half second.
My interpretation of the rule has always been that, though the offensive wrestler can effectively pin himself, there needs to be some causal connection between the defensive wrestler and the pin. Here's the rule:
Any part of both shoulders or part of both scapulae (For pinning area, see Illustration No. 2.) of either wrestler held in contact with the mat for one second constitutes a fall. The one-second count (one-thousand-one) shall be a silent count by the referee and shall start only after the referee is in position to observe that a fall is imminent, after which the shoulders or scapulae area must be held in continuous contact with the mat for one second before a fall is awarded.
Since the rules don't define what it means by "held," I'm willing to interpret "held" broadly enough based on past practice to mean that very little need be done by the defensive wrestler to cause the offensive wrestler to "pin himself." But not so broad as to be deprived of all meaning. I interpret "held" to mean simply that the defensive wrestler had the intent to pin the offensive wrestler, usually indicated by some positional awareness, like, say, backing into the offensive wrestler in a crab ride.
Brooks's only intent there was to look less ridiculous as soon as possible, he had no awareness of where Bo's shoulders were. But again, to the extent Bo was ever flat it was for far less than even a half second.
Funny, I don't see anybody saying Jimmy decked Carton.
Funny, I don't see anybody saying Jimmy decked Carton.
Well clearly the official missed this call. How could it be interpreted any other way?
Lol. Well played Jefe.Funny, I don't see anybody saying Jimmy decked Carton.
"Held" is broad, but I have never considered the opponents intent in the defensive pin. It can be a factor but a wrestler can, has and does pin themselves all by themselves.
IF the ref had been out of position, Bo COULD have been called. But the nature of the move has the red positioned correctly and he certainly wasn't going to see Bo from there while looking squarely at Brooks.
I recall Jake Strayer managing to pin himself without much help from his opponent.....seems like in the Big Tens or something. Hazy recollection. Do I remember this correctly?
Bottom line. People would do well to enjoy the fruits of crazy wrestling. Brooks was effing deep on that ankle and it went pear shaped fast. It wasn't fun when DT dropped his head low on the deep ankle with Bubba Jenkins. And for Brooks it wasn't fun.
They will meet again if Brooks can get by Dudley. If it happens, the match will be better because Brooks is certainly better than a 39 second pin.
I think an interesting point with Bo was the initial concern about strength that some speculated. I think it was a legitimate concern moving up a weight. But by pinning Brooks and Gravina, and having little issues with Dudley, all considered strong guys, that discussion has rightfully faded. He is a machine right now. Can't wait to see the Martin rematch.
Nice analysis! Have you ever considered the profession of law? You'd probably be good at it.
Thanks and yeah, I've considered the profession of law [to be a huge mistake while I'm practicing it every day].Nice analysis! Have you ever considered the profession of law? You'd probably be good at it.
Nice analysis! Have you ever considered the profession of law? You'd probably be good at it.
Damn! That's exactly what I was going to say. Does your emoticon mean you are joking or, possibly, that you actually know that tikk is, in fact an attorney? It's not just the analysis, but the style of writing as well, that makes me wonder if tikk has some lawyer in him. In particular, this sentence: "But not so broad as to be deprived of all meaning. " reeks of legalese. Hell, an appellate judge could pen that phrase.
There's a video of a Lehigh wrestler "pinning himself" floating around, used as evidence that the call in the Bo / Sam match should have gone the other way. His name is on the tip of my tongue, their 184 or 197 pounder a couple years back?? There are differences, but folks will grab anything to make a case. Imo, it was a different situation altogether.
Ha! I knew it -- just didn't see this post until I had already given my opinion on the subject. 30+ years and counting for me.
...if any Lehigh fan wants to look at an "uncalled" pin just refer him to the 1973 EIWA finals where Bob Medina had Tom Sculley stacked up on his shoulders and Pascal Perri just looked the other way and claimed he never saw it! ...there are several shots of that pin floating around...
Yeah, I knew. I still remember when he explained something about intellectual property super clearly. I shoulda saved that one to show my kids, "this is how you explain something."
Edit: I just printed Tikk's post from this thread to show my kids. They are young debaters, and wrestlers, and the economy of the post is what I'll point out for them. And the "I am willing to concede this far, but not crazy far" amiable, country-lawyer style.
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For those seriously arguing Bo pinned himself:
We now live in an age of "alternative facts"....The HR should trademark it in a hurry. With their trade rights maybe they can afford the group counselling that is about to befall the site for the next 2 years.
Well, there is "strong", and then there is "Dean strong".
Let's hope it plays out to PSU's favor on March 18th, whether strength is a determinant or not.
Funny, I don't see anybody saying Jimmy decked Carton.
El-Jefe pointing out the absurdity of using still pictures to prove a wrestling point despite the fact that wrestling is dynamic and not static, and also pointing out the absurdity of looking at a wrestling match with tunnel vision.
If I recall correctly, the pic El-Jefe has is when Copher hit a granby. If Jimmy had stuffed the roll, and held Copher there for a good bit, he might have gotten the pin, though from the position Jimmy was in the chances of him holding Copher there are probably slim and none.
In the broader sense, which I believe Cowbell was getting at, a ref looks at the big picture. Depending on the positioning, and how the offensive wrestler turns the defensive wrestler, there are many times where the offensive wrestler has some or all of their back/shoulders on the mat when have locked up a cradle and are trying to pin their opponent. And when was the last time you saw a defensive pin of a guy that was applying a cradle?
There are a lot of situations where the defensive wrestler is trying to get a reversal, but the offensive wrestler is still technically in control. The positioning of the two is such that the offensive wrestler is on their back. The instructions that refs are given for such situations is basically that you wait until the individual on their back shows concern about their situation. When they start trying to get off their back, and the defensive wrestler is keeping them from doing so, then it's a reversal, and swipes can be given. I'm giving specifics here, but you could rephrase it as refs should use common sense.
The same thinking/approach would apply with the Nickal - Brooks match. Brooks was on his back, with his feet in the air, and trying to get away. In putting Brooks into that situation, Bo did place his back on the mat. I doubt you could find one competent D1 college wrestling ref that would focus on that, and call a defensive pin on Bo. To do so they'd have to ignore the fact that the defensive wrestlers was in near fall criteria and close to getting pinned, and fighting to get out of the situation.
While the rules are written in a rather cut and dried manner, the situations they cover are not always so clear cut.
To further highlight absurdity: that pic came from an Iowa paper. (One of the post-match articles Tom linked.)
Humor me folks...is Fall criteria among the least understood of all wrestling rules? Seems when a guy gets to 45 degrees (more or less), lots of Rec Hall fans are screaming for an immediate fall call. Colorful language included too. Refs got it tough...
For those seriously arguing Bo pinned himself:
They may be arguing the point. They may even be seriously arguing the point. But I doubt that anyone truly believes that Bo pinned himself in that situation. They may want to believe it; they may think there is a "technical" argument in their favor. But I don't think any rational and knowledgeable (I'll omit the requirement of being objective) wrestling fan really thinks Bo was pinned in that match. Feel free to lecture me on the irrationality of posters on HR 'cause I don't visit there, but Hawkeye fans who frequent our board actually seem pretty level-headed.
It's universally misunderstood. And, the younger the kids, the worse it is. I also think that people overestimate their eyesight. People in the furthest seats away have a better view than the ref does, apparently.
I know one thing: It SEEMS like the fall call comes a little bit earlier in TODAY'S sport, than in the wrestling of yesteryear. Now, that might be the way it is, but it also may just seem that way. I actually believe the fall call is being officiated the correct way, in today's sport, compared to decades ago, when it seemed as if referees were pinning their palms underneath wrestlers shoulder blades just to justify the non fall call. Today, if a wrestler is pinned, they no longer hesitate to make the call. Now, there are missed fall calls every year, and will continue to be, but it just seems as if it was a lot more difficult to get the fall call in the past.
Let's try something else for a second that might help. Let's say BO DID have his shoulders to the mat for over a second.
In that scenario the rules do explicitly say a near fall count can only start when the referee is IN POSITION to see the near fall. He cannot assume a near fall from out of position. The same is effectively true for the pin. He cannot assume Brooks is pinned.
The ref PROPERLY went to view Brooks shoulders as Bo rolled him to his shoulders. That put him out of position to see Bo. Assuming BO HIMSELF did "held" his own shoulders to the mat, the ref was out of position to see it simply because Bo was now the aggressor. We see this ALL the time with defensive pins. The ref is not in position to see it.
In the end, BROOKS was pinned because the ref was in fact properly positioned to see it.
Assuming Bo was on his blades for more than a second AND the ref was IN POSITION to see it, he would have been correct to call the pin even though Brooks had Zero influence on the pin.
In this case though, as bad as it seems EVEN IF Bo's shoulders were down for a minute, the ref was doing his job properly. He noticed what Bo was doing with the Spladle and made sure he was in the CORRECT position to see the pin. And in that position, Bo's shoulders were not of interest.
We, including me, criticize the refs when they are not seeing the FLOW of the match. Not understanding the wrestlers they are in charge. Example would be Andrew Alton and Montel Marion. AA was young, but a massive thrower. The ref, with a little homework, would know there are considerable direction changes with throwers and they need to be up to the task to MOVE To get into position. For Alton that day...the ref was somewhere in the south stands when AA gripped the front headlock into the cement. He had time to move but he didn't.
This ref for Bo moved and positioned correctly. It sucks for Hawk fans that he would not be able to assess a defensive pin. I get it. I understand. But this time, give the ref credit. He was where we ALL would want him to be.
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My HS team was big on the spladle, and our biggest pet peeve was officials that failed to recognize the move when it was being executed. They would almost invariably be examining the wrong guy's shoulders for the fall, thinking he was still defending against a takedown. In the meantime, the kid stuck in the spladle was turning blue, trying to beg for a mat slap, if only he could find his voice.
Kinda like the ref in the infamous Nick Simmons freestyle spladle, when Simmons had to tell the ref to check the other guy's shoulders ...
Just looked at the junior world trials again, and watched Gabe Dean stall against Bo for the final minute of the match, after getting two pushouts. Can't help but think the match in March will be a bit different. Of course, freestyle vs folk, so...
we had a kid do it in a regional match and stuck the kid with his backside to the crowd, on the edge of the mat near the crowd, and on the mat nearest the crowd. An embarrassing moment for the young lad as he was stuck there for over a minute.
Given everything I've read in this thread, it's clear that Bo deserves the Wrestler of the Week award. Nobody else had two pins in one match.
Credit for the correct answer on Nolf, and for giving it a go. Again, this is a TOUGH ONE to get correct. You have to go back, but not TOO far back....
Just so we have the same definition of "defensive": do you mean from bottom position?
Because, if not: Cenzo, with the nearside cradle counter to Kemerer's shot in OT. "Defensive" in the sense that Kemerer took the shot and Cenzo rolled thru it.
To add more detail on Nolf's match (for those who didn't see it): it was both the most Jason Nolf thing and the most disappointing match of states that year -- and, yes, it was possible to be both. Barnes was undefeated, a good HS wrestler, and a pinner. He had rolled through to the finals. Nolf pinned him on a 1st period scramble -- actually, the 3rd scramble of the match. Nolf shot all 3x. Each time, Barnes funked into a stalemate. After the 2nd stalemate, Jason told the ref to watch for a neutral stack, and, sure enough he did what he said he was going to do.
