I am still sick about Bo's loss. I couldn't fall asleep thinking about it.
Bo's Loss
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Looked totally crushed walking off the raised mat -- head down, despondent. I saw Cael literally run after him and put an arm around him. Must have been concerned.
Yes. Very tough knowing your better but it happens. Bo will be fine. He will learn when to go after more points and when to just stay in good position and get the win. He will be a 3 time National Champion !
Bo started to cheer up at the after party last night. Nolf looked to be in worse shape. Kinda glad they can go through it together. The N's will all look to rebound next year together!
Good post. I can't get over the Bo loss either and can't imagine how the kid feels.
Knowing you are better and dominated someone 3 times and then to make a couple mistakes and lose on the biggest stage has to be heartbreaking for him.
As for Nolf, I've heard he's one of those kids that hates to lose and as someone above said he's taking it worse. I love hearing that even though in reality from my comfortable chair, he wrestled his ass off and just lost to someone who is the same level (or maybe a tad better). It's not like we didn't expect a close bout which could go either way.
I don't know either of these boys personally and just hope they take time, get over it and come back with chips on their shoulders next year.
I would hate to be one of their opponents next year!
Best of luck to both. And if anyone on this board does know these boys, I hope they let them know we all love watching them compete and are proud they are representing the program and keep their chins up!
Knowing you are better and dominated someone 3 times and then to make a couple mistakes and lose on the biggest stage has to be heartbreaking for him.
As for Nolf, I've heard he's one of those kids that hates to lose and as someone above said he's taking it worse. I love hearing that even though in reality from my comfortable chair, he wrestled his ass off and just lost to someone who is the same level (or maybe a tad better). It's not like we didn't expect a close bout which could go either way.
I don't know either of these boys personally and just hope they take time, get over it and come back with chips on their shoulders next year.
I would hate to be one of their opponents next year!
Best of luck to both. And if anyone on this board does know these boys, I hope they let them know we all love watching them compete and are proud they are representing the program and keep their chins up!
Yea, Nickal was hurting bad which is to be expected. A loss is a loss and they all hurt but when you know your better than what you performed and it's for all the marbles, well it makes it much harder to swallow. Nolf was devastated as well. He was very upset with himself after the first loss to Imar. In an interview following the loss to Imar he said he was hurt because he wanted to go undefeated through his collegiant career and he failed to do so. He said he accepted the loss and said it will be his only loss and that his next goal was to be a 4-timer. He's not going to achieve that and to have the same guy be the reason your two biggest goals were taken is crushing...I have no doubt Cael and their teammates will watch them and counsel/support as needed. It's part of life and it happens to us all (failure in some form). It's how you respond to adversity is what defines who you are. They will respond nicely & both become 3-timers.
I feel for both of these young men, but I have a sneaky feeling none of us have heard the last of them. They were huge parts of the greater whole (team title) and that really makes it more manageable when dealing with the loss. They both brought a lot of fan enjoyment to the sport this year, and are great examples of how everyone should aspire to wrestle.
To use an overworked expression.... NEXT YEAR!!! The three N's will raise the roof at Rec Hall and far beyond. They have DT, Frank and Cael for the best near term loss council I can think of. I'm not worried.
Bo could very well end up one day pointing to that loss as a turning point to an amazing career not just collegiately but internationally as well. Cael recruits strong willed kids who have it together "upstairs". Bo and Jason will be just fine.
I hope DT can continue to help be a leader. He has said over and over his goal was to be an undefeated 4-timer like Cael. His dreams were double crushed in the blink of an eye on the big stage. Now he has a chance to put his arm around 2 young men and walk them down the road. Nico also lost in the finals as a freshman (& sophomore ). Zain knows what it is like to beat someone then lose the next 2 times to them. Great room of guys and coaches, they are in good hands.
As one who has always hated to lose, I can imagine how they feel.
I can also see a silver lining in all this though. The class 2014, the 3-Ns and Rasheed, all came in with high expectations. Two have enjoyed a lot of success, the other two have dealt with a lot of disappointment.
I could see where this could be used as a common bond. Regroup, set new goals, come back stronger and better.
I can also see a silver lining in all this though. The class 2014, the 3-Ns and Rasheed, all came in with high expectations. Two have enjoyed a lot of success, the other two have dealt with a lot of disappointment.
I could see where this could be used as a common bond. Regroup, set new goals, come back stronger and better.
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The list of Collegiate wrestlers who have lost at least one match in their career: Everyone, except Cael.
The list of great wrestlers who have won national championships, but were pinned in the finals: Taylor and Snyder.
The list of undefeated wrestlers who were defeated in their FINAL collegiate bout: Dan Gable.
Wade Schalles: Did not win 4 national championships.
Dan Gable: Did not win 4 national championships.
Lee Kemp: Did not win 4 national championships.
Kyle Dake: DID win 4 national championships, but was beaten twice in his career.
Everyone goes through it, the lucky ones have it happen at the earliest possible point in their career, where they can learn the most from it.
Bo and Jason will be just fine.
The list of great wrestlers who have won national championships, but were pinned in the finals: Taylor and Snyder.
The list of undefeated wrestlers who were defeated in their FINAL collegiate bout: Dan Gable.
Wade Schalles: Did not win 4 national championships.
Dan Gable: Did not win 4 national championships.
Lee Kemp: Did not win 4 national championships.
Kyle Dake: DID win 4 national championships, but was beaten twice in his career.
Everyone goes through it, the lucky ones have it happen at the earliest possible point in their career, where they can learn the most from it.
Bo and Jason will be just fine.
I love watching Bo wrestle but I thought he was done putting himself on his back after the Nate Jackson match earlier in the season. I am shocked he did it at MSG in the finals. Part of being a freshman and maybe not respecting Martin enough since he dominated him last time.
Great kid
Great kid
Whole lotta psychoanalysis over losing his grip on an ankle. Meaning: sometimes the reason for a loss is the simplest, most obvious reason. Don't always have to go looking for other reasons.
Long-term he'll be fine. He's been wrestling long enough that this is not his first big loss, and he has great teammates and some bald guy who maybe someday will learn to coach.
Long-term he'll be fine. He's been wrestling long enough that this is not his first big loss, and he has great teammates and some bald guy who maybe someday will learn to coach.
If I had to hazard a guess, it's a combination of impatience, but more significantly, a lack of offensive skills, funny as that sounds. He's got to go big, and has been successful at it, but it's masked a deficiency. For instance, I don't think he has a go-to single or double.
I thought it was interesting that Cael described both N's as still a little "raw" in the post-meet press conference. Interesting way to describe your frosh runner-ups. On the flip-side, world watch out when they've been coached up properly.
I thought Bo was hitting the ankle pick a lot at the beginning of the year and kind of went away from it.
Well, one way to "setup" the ankle pick is "threaten the throw" and get your opponent so concerned about the upper body, they can't react quick enough when you surprise them with a change levels and go pick or kick sweep the ankle. I've seen both Nolf and Bo hit that ankle kick-sweep and it is a thing of beauty when opponent not expecting it as they fall directly to their back.
I've seen Bo hit some nice, nice singles and high crotches this season. But also have trouble finishing them against better opponents (e.g. Jackson when he was behind). I bet he focuses lots of time this off season on improving his finishes.
Regardless, I like his style and hope he doesn't change one thing about his aggressiveness.
Regardless, I like his style and hope he doesn't change one thing about his aggressiveness.
The loss will only make him work harder, be more hungry, and wrestle smarter next year. He had a pretty close match with the OSU kid in February at the BJC, which I attended. I was not surprised at his loss after watching him wrestle back then. I was also not surprised at Morgan's loss as he seemed to get tired in the 3rd period, both when I attended the OSU match and when I watched the NCAA Finals.
You thought Morgan got tired in the OHIO STATE MATCH? When he got about 72 takedowns in the third to lock up the tech fall?
Really, 72 take downs? That feat alone would make him tired, don't you think?
Obviously an exaggeration, but he did get 3 in the last 30 seconds, (edit: 5 in the last 40 seconds according to the PSWC). To suggest he got tired in this one is ridiculous
http://www.flowrestling.org/video/905567-197-m-morgan-mcintosh-psu-vs-josh-fox-ohio-state
This is life. It's real, and it felt bad (still stings a little, I'm sure). It's past however, and I'm beyond sure that the coaches have been talking to these guys, and are making it a positive. Some of you may not understand that, but if you listen, and understand what Coach means by "the process", these two, and in fact all the wrestlers, learn from every match, regardless of the result.
Before someone misreads the paragraph above as from some heartless fan, I'm not... trust me. I was with Bo and Morgan shortly after they spoke at the social, and both seemed fine. I was heartbroken for them, so I didn't look back, instead we talked about the future. They'll be fine, and while I could not find Jason, I'm sure he will be as well.
Before someone misreads the paragraph above as from some heartless fan, I'm not... trust me. I was with Bo and Morgan shortly after they spoke at the social, and both seemed fine. I was heartbroken for them, so I didn't look back, instead we talked about the future. They'll be fine, and while I could not find Jason, I'm sure he will be as well.
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That's like the Randy Lewis story about wrestling Tommy Brands in practice on a Saturday morning after a late night out drinking.
Lewis kept taking Brands down, but Brands kept coming.
Finally, Lewis was too tired to continue and Brands cussed him out: "That's bullshit Lewis. We don't quit at Iowa"
And Lewis answered: "You'd be tired too, Brands, if you took someone down 100 times in one practice."
And Brands couldn't quite keep from cracking up, but he said "F*** you, Lewis".
I was the score keeper for Kyle Dake's last lost. I couldn't believe it as I was circling Kevin LeValley's name as the winner on the official NCAA score sheet. It was at the 2011 EIWA finals at Bucknell.
It is really strange when you think about it, how did 4 guys beat Dake? I noticed that I think 3 of them were EIWA guys? Maybe the thing about Dake is familiarity, but then DT would have gotten him by now....I can't quite figure out how that guy lost four times.
It's very strange when you look at it. If David Taylor could barely find a way through his defense and was ridden by Dake... how did, EIWA guys beat him? With LeValley, it was with his length and his defense. Dake couldn't get through Kevin's defense and KL turned it into a low scoring affair where anyone could win at the end. It was Kyles only nemesis. Not scoring enough in big matches where it could bite him in the end. Not too often... but lose to guys who on paper didn't have the skills Kyle Dake had.
and that was EXACTLY the strategy St John had against him in his third championship match...St John just lacked a finishing move, but he was able to keep it close with hands to Dake's face non stop.
These guys have lofty goals and I love that. But, the reality is that NCAA wrestling is insanely difficult. Even the best of the best have fallen short of accomplishing what Bo and Jason wanted to do. World Champion Kyle Snyder was pinned in the finals last year. David Taylor was pinned in his first finals, too. Those two were shocking results. David Taylor lost a second NCAA final and he's still regarded as one of the bet PSU wrestlers of all time and certainly one of the most dominating NCAA wrestlers of all time.
Bo beats Martin 3 out of 4 times. He's just better. The one time he slipped up was in the finals and that's a tough pill to swallow when you know you're better but the other guy got the one win that counts the most.
As far as Jason goes, Martinez is a super stud. The separation between him and Jason is basically zero. There is absolutely no shame in losing to Martinez. None. I have no doubt that Jason will be back in the finals next year and if Martinez moves to 165lbs nobody will even touch Jason at 157lbs next year. If Martinez stays at 157lbs then Jason will have his shot at redemption.
Bo beats Martin 3 out of 4 times. He's just better. The one time he slipped up was in the finals and that's a tough pill to swallow when you know you're better but the other guy got the one win that counts the most.
As far as Jason goes, Martinez is a super stud. The separation between him and Jason is basically zero. There is absolutely no shame in losing to Martinez. None. I have no doubt that Jason will be back in the finals next year and if Martinez moves to 165lbs nobody will even touch Jason at 157lbs next year. If Martinez stays at 157lbs then Jason will have his shot at redemption.
Wonder if Nolf works on strength in the off season, then comes back with a strategy of riding more, to wear out IMar, while gaining a riding time advantage.
The OT difference of 22 seconds wasn't much in their second match.
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Just a thought.
Outstanding wrestler who will further commit to various improvements, as he adds another year of training.
I think many fans are putting far more emphasis on winning a specific "folkstyle match" than the coaches do OR than the coaches tell their wrestlers to put on any specific match. It is pretty simple what Cael means by "the process" - he wants his wrestlers to leave the program far better "true wrestlers" than when they came to the program. Given that most of these elite guys have goals and the potential to attain much higher ambitions than "NCAA Folkstyle Championships", it is within this rubric that Cael is saying that a loss, even in the NCAA finals, is really no big deal as long as the loss occurred while the wrestler is constantly improving toward their ultimate goal (which is generally not "folkstyle championships", it is generally the desire to win International Freestyle Championships which are much more coveted and harder to come by) AND "wrestling the right way" TOWARDS THAT GOAL.
Right about at the "elite" high school and NCAA level (e.g., "World Juniors"), the "styles", tactics, moves and strategies that will lead to success in "folkstyle" versus "International Freestyle" begin to diverge quite significantly. I alluded to it in the Jimmy Carr thread, and Spencer Lee flat-out said the same thing in an interview that was posted on here, but often times these guys who are "elite" wrestlers in "International Freestyle" at the Junior level ("Junior Olympics", U.S. World Junior Team, etc...) do not like even wrestling folkstyle, because there is a lot of "gimmicky" bull$hit in "folk" that can make you a very difficult to beat folkstyle wrestler that would have ZERO chance of success in "elite" Freestyle matches, especially in major International Tournaments - quite the opposite actually, many of these "gimmicky" folkstyle tactics would get you DQ'ed if you weren't "tech'ed" first (Tech Fall in Freestyle is only a 10 point differential and points are awarded on the first stall call and there is no "count" [2 or 4] for NF points - if your opponent exposes your back even momentarily, you're giving up points; hence, Spencer Lee's comments about "rolling an elite competitor through 3 times and the match is over via Tech Fall, while it takes forever to takeout vastly inferior competitors via Tech Fall in the PIAA State Tournament". Additionally, stalls - "passivity" in Free - are called much quicker and more freely - for instance, backing up and refusing to engage your opponent who is pursuing you will almost always draw an immediate stall call. You can also be dinged in Freestyle for "fleeing a hold" in neutral - for instance, rather than breaking a tie while remaining in contact using your hands, if you just simply break contact and run away... - 1 point penalty).
Anyway, I know for a fact that Nate Carr didn't even want to wrestle "folkstyle" anymore late in high school, because he was becoming so successful on the "International Freestyle" circuit - ditto his brother, Jimmy, from a decade earlier. I know this for a FACT because I was told these things by Nate Carr himself. One of the reasons Jimmy Carr was not a dominant "folkstyle" wrestler in college (he still was an AA) despite making the U.S. International Team at the age of 16 and competing in the Olympics at the age of 17 was because he really didn't care about folkstyle and ONLY wrestled NCAA because, at the time, it was the only way you could continue to wrestle via "sponsorship" (back in the early 1970s, there were no "Freestyle Wrestling Clubs" and the U.S. did not sponsor and support a "permanent" International Team - you qualified for the U.S. International Team annually, but you had to wrestle with a "team" in the interim for workout purposes. On top of not really caring that much about "folkstyle", Jimmy also had a wife and kids by the time he started his NCAA Folkstyle career.
So again, many of these kids have much higher ambitions than "NCAA Championships" and their "skills" and "styles" are being molded toward their HIGHEST AMBITION, International Freestyle Medals, especially the Olympics and Worlds -- it would be doing these kids a disservice to "mold" their styles and skills toward prioritizing "NCAA Folkstyle Championships", this would simply hinder their development toward their higher ambition and in a very real way, cut their International Careers short up-to-and-including never having an International Career at the "elite" level.
Folk has a "risk-reward" dynamic element to it that typically favors a wrestler with extremely good defensive skills and "countering style" combined with the skill of somebody who can stay on top of their opponent no matter what in the top mat position (e.g., "riding") - even if they are doing nothing except riding and never come close to actually turning their opponent. In International Free, it is illegal to wrestle exclusively defensively and "counter only", especially if you are backing-up while your opponent is pursuing you and you won't even engage in a "tie" (typically you can get away with backing up for some period of time in Free if you at least engage your opponent in a "head-tie" of some sort - but backing up while "un-engaged" AND being pursued by your opponent is a BIG no-no in Free and will get you dinged quickly for passivity). Additionally, Free has no component where there is a reward for meaningless "riding" (e.g., riding simply for the sake of riding and accumulating "riding time") - there is a reward for the ability to break you opponent down and turn them (e.g., expose their back) or the ability to just plain turn them from directly from neutral (e.g., both the TD and the turn right from neutral) from the top position.
This is true regarding Bo's match with Martin - and Cael has said as much. Cael said that "as long as he's wrestling the "right way" the loss is acceptable and just part of "the process". Bo clearly "out-wrestled" Martin again in the finals; all of Martin's points were off of Bo's aggression and attacks where Bo was close to finishing, but made a very slight mistake in execution on the finish. If you watch the tape again, you will see that Martin constantly does an Ali "rope-a-dope" in neutral running away from Bo while Bo is pursuing him around attempting to engage (bouncing around almost like a boxer "boobing and weaving") - these maneuvers would have almost certainly been penalized in Free as they are not permitted. In Free this is not consider "good defense" (there is no such thing in Free - wrestling exclusively defensively looking only to counter is penalized in Free for "passivity"). Refusal to engage or "fleeing a hold" when breaking a "tie-up" (yes, there is a penalty in Free called "fleeing a hold") is penalized via multiple passivity penalities inlcuding the general catch-all penalty labeled just "passivity" which the official can apply to any action or series of actions that he believes demonstrates a lack of aggression and attacks or demonstrates clear "passivity".
Cael can address some of the mistakes Bo made, but none of Bo's mistakes have anything to do with being "too aggressive" or not being "defensive enough" (e.g., making poor risk-reward decisions) - Cael wants his wrestlers to wrestle toward their "ultimate goal" - wrestle all matches, folk and free, in the manner that would win a match regardless of whether you were wrestling folk or free.
IOW aggressive, attacking and looking to take the other man out either via scoring or Fall (e.g., a "style" oriented ultimately toward succeeding at the elite level of Freestyle, which will work for the elite level of Folkstyle as well, which is the NCAA, but can also be successfully thwarted by gimmicky maneuvers oriented exclusively to winning in folk - actually things which would often be penalized in Free, are rewarded in folk. If you lose due to the vagaries of folkstyle, and an opponent who is going to specifically use a "gimmicky" style oriented exclusively toward prioritizing "folkstyle championships", well that's an acceptable loss as long as you were wrestling the "right way" withing the overall "process" - just accept it and move forward and keep advancing your style such that your aggressive style will "overwhelm" the bull$hit gimmicks the next time even if it means chasing him around the mat until the ref does his job and REWARDS THE AGGRESSOR / ATTACKER and penalizes the runner / counter-only wrestler making zero attacks.
BTW, if Bo has a little better tank, he still wins that match imho because on the last throw, he throws Martin to his back at the edge, but was unable to hold him there because he was clearly completely out of energy, Martin was therefore able to "roll" Bo and even then Martin was just fortunate that his feet barely stayed in-bounds after the roll-through (otherwise they would have been OB and back to center). Bo seemed to run out of gas in his Semi against Jackson as well, so I'm not convinced that Bo might not have been feeling a little under the weather - or maybe he was just a little run down from a grueling tournament. Either way doesn't matter what the reason, any of these things are easily remedied by either time or Cael & Co. But only a fool or unknowlegable wrestling fan really believes Martin "out-wrestled" Bo in the true sense of what that means OR that Martin would likely beat Bo next time they meet. Bo looked wildly dangerous out there as usual and was a threat to take Martin out with one "well-hit" move (just like he took him out at B1Gs), while Martin looked like he couldn't score on Bo if his life depended on it without Bo making a slight error on finishing his moves (e.g., "countering" if you really want to call it that - Martin has nothing to "counter" if Bo is just slightly better and more precise on the execution of his move, especially on the "finish").
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A discussion with my daughter helped me sort out Bo's loss a bit. I took her to a match and she knows that Bo is my co-favorite wrestler on the team depending on what day you ask me.
She just said sorry, I saw your guy lost. I went on to explain that he'd beaten a very good wrestler 3 times in a couple months and the odds finally caught up to him. I further explained that Bo has a killer instinct and isn't looking to win 4-3, he's looking to show guys the rafters. He's putting on a show. Do I wish he'd played it safer just this once and maybe won by a point? Hell yes. But then I added, if he wrestled that way he probably wouldn't have so quickly become a fan favorite.
I think most of us want to see these guys accomplish their goals because we're proud of they way they represent Penn State. I'm disappointed FOR Bo, not in him. I'm sure that's the prevailing feeling around here.
She just said sorry, I saw your guy lost. I went on to explain that he'd beaten a very good wrestler 3 times in a couple months and the odds finally caught up to him. I further explained that Bo has a killer instinct and isn't looking to win 4-3, he's looking to show guys the rafters. He's putting on a show. Do I wish he'd played it safer just this once and maybe won by a point? Hell yes. But then I added, if he wrestled that way he probably wouldn't have so quickly become a fan favorite.
I think most of us want to see these guys accomplish their goals because we're proud of they way they represent Penn State. I'm disappointed FOR Bo, not in him. I'm sure that's the prevailing feeling around here.
