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Butler vs. Shoop

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psuphillyfan14

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Sep 29, 2014
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I recall when Butler's defenses were getting thrashed all over the place, the Homers started using the "sanctions this, sanctions that" excuse to avoid criticism of Butler. Even though you saw defensive backs looking confused before each play, and Butler doing an angry monkey dance, it was apparently the sanctions that were the reason the D gave up so many points in the inexperienced Butler's only year as DC.

Fast forward 1 season, and Bob Shoop has turned the D into a top 10 unit. But what about the sanctions?

See, coaching matters. You can't just blindly blame sanctions for EVERYTHING.
 
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You really think the sanctions were a prize for PSU? Nobody is saying coaching is irrelevant, but the talent and youth along the OL hurt last year. No need for a new thread for you to say sanctions didn't impact PSU. They did and you can move on now as PSU is moving forward.
 
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LaJolla Lion said:
You really think the sanctions were a prize for PSU? Nobody is saying coaching is irrelevant, but the talent and youth along the OL hurt last year. No need for a new thread for you to say sanctions didn't impact PSU. They did and you can move on now as PSU is moving forward.
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I'm just pointing out that sanctions were used as an excuse for inept coaching when in fact, the problem was inept coaching. Now I never said Hand was inept, but if this line doesn't improve this year he needs to be given a tough look, which is difficult for some to swallow because he's a fan favorite. Donovan should already be on the hot seat, because I view him as the offensive version of Butler. And on top of that, he's a total a-hole (end of year interview throwing players under the bus confirms that).
 
Your comparing different years and personnel too. Shoop is awesome, but Butler was replacing 2 NFL LB's and possibly the best leader to ever play at PSU in Mauti. He was starting two walk on safeties too. That isn't an excuse, it's what occurred. Walk on manning both safety positions was in fact a direct result is sanctions in addition to poor recruiting. If your point is Shoop is a better DC, nobody is going to argue that. You are also trying to say the sanctions didn't really matter. You can't have it both ways as poor talent leads to poor play. Same with coaching. It's not black and white all of the time.
 
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LaJolla Lion said:
Your comparing different years and personnel too. Shoop is awesome, but Butler was replacing 2 NFL LB's and possibly the best leader to ever play at PSU in Mauti. He was starting two walk on safeties too. That isn't an excuse, it's what occurred. Walk on manning both safety positions was in fact a direct result is sanctions in addition to poor recruiting. If your point is Shoop is a better DC, nobody is going to argue that. You are also trying to say the sanctions didn't really matter. You can't have it both ways as poor talent leads to poor play. Same with coaching. It's not black and white all of the time.
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The LB's were not the problem with Butler. I also didn't know that Jordan Lucas was a walk on. He's had a pretty good career here, so I wouldn't consider him walk-on talent if that were the case. Where was Amos playing that year?

I'm not saying the sanctions don't sting. I'm just tired of them being blindly used as an excuse for EVERYTHING. There's the difference.
 
psuphillyfan14 said:
The LB's were not the problem with Butler. I also didn't know that Jordan Lucas was a walk on. He's had a pretty good career here, so I wouldn't consider him walk-on talent if that were the case. Where was Amos playing that year?

I'm not saying the sanctions don't sting. I'm just tired of them being blindly used as an excuse for EVERYTHING. There's the difference.
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The everything exists in your head.
 
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psuphillyfan14 said:
Derek Day starting at Running Back
Defense not being Butler's fault
John Donovan being competent (offenses ranked in the 80's at Vandy)
The wildcat calls (seriously, I've seen people say this)
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Look at the OL Hack's first year versus last year. Look at how they looked a little better when Diff was back last year. I know this current OL isn't going to dominate too. It's not to hard to figure out why.

Last years OG's were RS frosh or converted DT's. Call it an excuse, but that is who was out there. You took it from Hand to comparing Butler to Shoop. That is called moving the line and I know why you had to. Shoop is a better DC, but that has jack crap to do with Hand.
 
LaJolla Lion said:
Look at the OL Hack's first year versus last year. Look at how the looked a little better when Diff was back last year. I know this OL isn't going to dominate too. It's not to hard to figure out why. Last years OG's were RS frosh or converted DT's. Call it an excuse, but that is who was out there. You took it from Hand to comparing Butler to Shoop. That is called moving the line and I know why you had to.
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Yes, and that is why I gave him a pass on last year's performance. However, they have a year of experience under their belt. If these same problems persist, especially in the realm of looking lost and missing assignments, then I think it's time to take a tough look at Hand. As someone pointed out, the running game wasn't that great at Vandy in 2013. In fact their offense was ranked in the 80's, I believe all 3 years of Franklin's tenure.
 
psuphillyfan14 said:
Yes, and that is why I gave him a pass on last year's performance. However, they have a year of experience under their belt. If these same problems persist, especially in the realm of looking lost and missing assignments, then I think it's time to take a tough look at Hand. As someone pointed out, the running game wasn't that great at Vandy in 2013. In fact their offense was ranked in the 80's, I believe all 3 years of Franklin's tenure.
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Did you watch our LT position this spring game? Maybe he bulks up and adjusts over the summer, but I have my doubts. I would hope the OG play is better as they all have a year under their belt. The simple fact you're comparing Vandy to PSU is pretty telling. That there kind of tells you the sanctions did impact PSU in some fashion. You can gripe or question them all you want to, but you stated the sanctions were an excuse for everything which they are not. Maybe you should learn to choose your words better I guess.

Everyone on the offensive side has something to prove this year, but I just don't see this OL setting the tone again this year. Last years OL was green, learning new positions, and a new system. Compare that to Urschel (NFL), Gilliam(NFL), Smith (soon to be NFL), Howle (5th year guy), and Diff. You can't sit there with a straight face and say PSU was ready to reload and it had zero to do with the sanctions. I'm not sold on Hand, but I can also see the talent drop off and youth. I'm not sure PSU has a real solution at LT this year and that is such a huge concern. Maybe if we fire Hand now, it will be fixed?
 
LaJolla Lion said:
Did you watch our LT position this spring game? Maybe he bulks up and adjusts over the summer, but I have my doubts. I would hope the OG play is better as they all have a year under their belt. The simple fact you're comparing Vandy to PSU is pretty telling. That there kind of tells you the sanctions did impact PSU in some fashion. You can gripe or question them all you want to, but you stated the sanctions were an excuse for everything which they are not. Maybe you should learn to choose your words better I guess.

Everyone on the offensive side has something to prove this year, but I just don't see this OL setting the tone again this year. Last years OL was green, learning new positions, and a new system. Compare that to Urschel (NFL), Gilliam(NFL), Smith (soon to be NFL), Howle (5th year guy), and Diff. You can't sit there with a straight face and say PSU was ready to reload and it had zero to do with the sanctions. I'm not sold on Hand, but I can also see the talent drop off and youth. I'm not sure PSU has a real solution at LT this year and that is such a huge concern. Maybe if we fire Hand now, it will be fixed?
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ONCE AGAIN, I'm giving Hand a pass for last year! Sheesh! It's like you refuse to read that part. But if they stink and look lost and miss a sheet ton of assignments again, its time to take a tough look at Hand.
 
psuphillyfan14 said:
ONCE AGAIN, I'm giving Hand a pass for last year! Sheesh! It's like you refuse to read that part. But if they stink and look lost and miss a sheet ton of assignments again, its time to take a tough look at Hand.
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Ok you can look at him all you want to, but I don't think Franklin will. So basically the sanctions did play a part in last years OL performance which is all I was really saying. That isn't an excuse for everything, but it played a huge part with the OL last year. Think about the guys 3 years into this program like Hack. It's the first time he is coming into a season without a whole new offense. He should have some more freedom to check out of plays. I don't think this OL will be light years better, but they should be a little better. The OG's will be in their 3rd year which is kind of where you need to be physically to play at the 1a level IMO. There are always exceptions, but most frosh and RS frosh do not dominate along the OL. Palmer is 3 years out, but you can tell he didn't have the right S&C at the JC. Put the kerosene down and give the staff the time to actually get the cupboards replenished. The chanting for heads in April in the second year is a bit premature.
 
I'm not a big Butler fan but to be fair, he was playing some people in the secondary who did not have the speed necessary to compete at that level. He was changing schemes and there was adjustment for that. And the DL was struggling a bit that year -- great DTs but the DEs were banged up and not playing that well. And yes Mauti had graduated and Hull was hurt most of the year, so they were depleted/inexperienced at LB.
 
tboyer said:
I'm not a big Butler fan but to be fair, he was playing some people in the secondary who did not have the speed necessary to compete at that level. He was changing schemes and there was adjustment for that. And the DL was struggling a bit that year -- great DTs but the DEs were banged up and not playing that well. And yes Mauti had graduated and Hull was hurt most of the year, so they were depleted/inexperienced at LB.
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Were they not the same people in the secondary that Shoop had?

Barnes had a down year, but Daquan Jones played well enough to get to the NFL. Zettel and CJ had pretty good years too.
 
psuphillyfan14 said:
I recall when Butler's defenses were getting thrashed all over the place, the Homers started using the "sanctions this, sanctions that" excuse to avoid criticism of Butler. Even though you saw defensive backs looking confused before each play, and Butler doing an angry monkey dance, it was apparently the sanctions that were the reason the D gave up so many points in the inexperienced Butler's only year as DC.

Fast forward 1 season, and Bob Shoop has turned the D into a top 10 unit. But what about the sanctions?

See, coaching matters. You can't just blindly blame sanctions for EVERYTHING.
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Butler s problem was cover 4. Go back and watch. You may learn something
 
Howca
psuphillyfan14 said:
No, I don't have access to the game tape right now. So explain to me how Cover 4 is a sanctions problem and not a Butler problem. I'm all ears.[/QUOTE
How can you throw anybody under the bus if you haven't broken down the film???

I never
Said butlers pronlwas a sanction problem I said his problem was cover 4
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My memory must be different as I remember almost everyone calling for Butler's head just like Dononvan's this past year. I don't recall Butler receiving a pass. I do remember lots of criticism of corners playing off receivers and obviously the lb coach had some issues with him. Also criticized for being over the top emotionally.
 
A cover-4 scheme that doesn't work properly can absolutely be a talent issue - which, in our case, can't be divorced from the sanctions. Corners in a cover-4 could play off receivers, but need the quickness and awareness to react to quick hitter passes - corners also play off because they aren't athletic or fast enough to recover if a receiver beats them off the line. The key to a successful cover-4 defense is tremendous athleticism in the secondary; unlike a cover-3 like we had under Bradley, a cover-4 puts much more pressure on the cornerbacks because they don't have strong safety help underneath. Look at Pat Narduzzi's Michigan State defenses - they almost exclusively run a cover-4, and it's successful because they've been able to recruit and develop talented corners and safeties that turn into first round draft picks. Narduzzi took a solid 3 or 4 years for his MSU defense to get up to speed, and it was to recruit the type of players that you need in that defense (and, for that reason, Narduzzi's defense at Pitt this year probably won't be fantastic because they don't have the athletes yet).
I don't think anyone could argue that through inexperience, lack of depth, and lack of talent that Butler didn't have the horses needed to succeed with that kind of scheme, and I don't think one could argue that the latter two have the sanctions as a cause. At the same time, I don't blame Butler in the least for experimenting with a Cover-4, as it's really one of (if not) the most adaptable defensive schemes for the way college football offenses are structured today. It just didn't work out both because of a lack of personnel and depth as well as perhaps not enough time to fully install it which resulted in the confused looks that we would see last season.
 
Raffycorn said:
A cover-4 scheme that doesn't work properly can absolutely be a talent issue - which, in our case, can't be divorced from the sanctions. Corners in a cover-4 could play off receivers, but need the quickness and awareness to react to quick hitter passes - corners also play off because they aren't athletic or fast enough to recover if a receiver beats them off the line. The key to a successful cover-4 defense is tremendous athleticism in the secondary; unlike a cover-3 like we had under Bradley, a cover-4 puts much more pressure on the cornerbacks because they don't have strong safety help underneath. Look at Pat Narduzzi's Michigan State defenses - they almost exclusively run a cover-4, and it's successful because they've been able to recruit and develop talented corners and safeties that turn into first round draft picks. Narduzzi took a solid 3 or 4 years for his MSU defense to get up to speed, and it was to recruit the type of players that you need in that defense (and, for that reason, Narduzzi's defense at Pitt this year probably won't be fantastic because they don't have the athletes yet).
I don't think anyone could argue that through inexperience, lack of depth, and lack of talent that Butler didn't have the horses needed to succeed with that kind of scheme, and I don't think one could argue that the latter two have the sanctions as a cause. At the same time, I don't blame Butler in the least for experimenting with a Cover-4, as it's really one of (if not) the most adaptable defensive schemes for the way college football offenses are structured today. It just didn't work out both because of a lack of personnel and depth as well as perhaps not enough time to fully install it which resulted in the confused looks that we would see last season.
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Ok, so Butler employed a system that was equivalent to putting a square peg in a round hole. That's not on sanctions, that's on Butler being an arrogant idiot. Which makes my point.
 
psuphillyfan14 said:
Ok, so Butler employed a system that was equivalent to putting a square peg in a round hole. That's not on sanctions, that's on Butler being an arrogant idiot. Which makes my point.
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That's fine. My belief - although just my feeling, with no evidence or quotes - is that Butler's long-term goal was to adapt player personnel to the cover-4, and that 2013 was intended to be a year of growing pains as personnel adapts to the scheme and as more fitting personnel is recruited. Why not use a year where you already know you're depleted personnel-wise to implement a scheme that could pay off down the road due to the way college football is developing offensively? To be honest with you, I think that if Butler were still the Defensive Coordinator in 2014, we would have seen improvements due to a year of increased familiarity with the scheme especially in the defensive backfield.
 
Raffycorn said:
That's fine. My belief - although just my feeling, with no evidence or quotes - is that Butler's long-term goal was to adapt player personnel to the cover-4, and that 2013 was intended to be a year of growing pains as personnel adapts to the scheme and as more fitting personnel is recruited. Why not use a year where you already know you're depleted personnel-wise to implement a scheme that could pay off down the road due to the way college football is developing offensively? To be honest with you, I think that if Butler were still the Defensive Coordinator in 2014, we would have seen improvements due to a year of increased familiarity with the scheme especially in the defensive backfield.
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In 2014 we had an unfamiliar scheme on Defense and the results were tremendous.
 
psuphillyfan14 said:
I recall when Butler's defenses were getting thrashed all over the place, the Homers started using the "sanctions this, sanctions that" excuse to avoid criticism of Butler. Even though you saw defensive backs looking confused before each play, and Butler doing an angry monkey dance, it was apparently the sanctions that were the reason the D gave up so many points in the inexperienced Butler's only year as DC.

Fast forward 1 season, and Bob Shoop has turned the D into a top 10 unit. But what about the sanctions?

See, coaching matters. You can't just blindly blame sanctions for EVERYTHING.
Click to expand...
 
Ask Coach Hand about the sanctions. Do you believe sanctions compounded by injuries didn't impact the offensive line last season? Certainly Shoop seemed to be a vast improvement from Butler but don't minimize the sanctions.
 
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