Coaching up recruits

[ev_flores0331]

Just my thoughts as an impartial third party: give credit where credit's due. Just bringing in top recruits clearly doesn't guarantee success when success is measured by championships. Marstellar is just the latest example. Your coach has done a phenomenal job (news flash). And when I say "impartial," I mean that I root against you on general principle, lol

That said, have you guys noticed the correlation between the new kid in town and winning? Makes you wonder how a guy like DT would do at a place like Pittsburgh, right?

 

[slushhead]

I'll give some credit where it is due...This impending argument over hypothetical comparisons -- rather than being taken up here -- can simply be continued over there:

https://iowa.forums.rivals.com/threads/gable-sanderson-recruiting-comparison.165777/

 

[ev_flores0331]

LOL

I'll pass.

 

[RoarLions1]

Sorry, but I'll leave my thoughts here...probably won't go over well at HR, even if my thinking is reasonable.

I love what Dan Gable has done for wrestling. Have followed wrestling since 1974 as a college freshman, and throughout my life have met and talked with Dan several times. Awesome ambassador for our sport, and his accomplishments speak for themselves.

However, he was recruiting in a different era, and I personally find the comparisons one of apples to oranges. Looking to make this a bragging rights discussion (or argument, since some folks can't help themselves as they head into the dumpster fire), just to say "nanny, nanny, boo, boo...my coach is better than your coach" is ridiculous.

With all the high-schooler's travelling to regional and national tournaments (more now than ever), access by ranking agencies or individuals to videos, social media, etc., the rankings are more accurate, and frankly the talent level is such that "coaching up" a kid just isn't the same.

Again, I recognize what Dan did, his accomplishments were terrific, but trying to downplay, or even belittle what our coaching staff is doing is flat out misinformed.

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

Sorry, but I'll leave my thoughts here...probably won't go over well at HR, even if my thinking is reasonable.

I love what Dan Gable has done for wrestling. Have followed wrestling since 1974 as a college freshman, and throughout my life have met and talked with Dan several times. Awesome ambassador for our sport, and his accomplishments speak for themselves.

However, he was recruiting in a different era, and I personally find the comparisons one of apples to oranges. Looking to make this a bragging rights discussion (or argument, since some folks can't help themselves as they head into the dumpster fire), just to say "nanny, nanny, boo, boo...my coach is better than your coach" is ridiculous.

With all the high-schooler's travelling to regional and national tournaments (more now than ever), access by ranking agencies or individuals to videos, social media, etc., the rankings are more accurate, and frankly the talent level is such that "coaching up" a kid just isn't the same.

Again, I recognize what Dan did, his accomplishments were terrific, but trying to downplay, or even belittle what our coaching staff is doing is flat out misinformed.

I definitely recommend that you NOT take these thoughts to HR; they are far too rational for that forum.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

The two great Cyclones each bring something special. Gable was the "Forest Gump" of wrestling. He convinced people they could do anything, and they did. Talent was very present in his teams, and he was a master of seeing a guy and getting a vision of what that guy could become. His name is synonymous with wrestling. He needs nobody on any forum defending his honor. Great, great Cyclone!

Cael is an anomaly most of Cyclone Nation never fully understood. Quiet, artistic, polite, and relentless. The outer man never seemed to match the inner being. We were used to our dominate wrestlers being fierce at all times. Cael went about it so differently and made the sport look easy. He brought a cerebral, active style to the mat along with a big smile.

Gable accomplished things it would be hard to imagine anyone equaling. I believe no streak or run of success will be equal to Gable's, but if somebody does approach or surpass it will be Cael. Cael and Gable. Why compare you poor idiots in Iowa City when you produced neither? Maybe HR should worry about why only former Cyclones can coach great, while former hawks can only bring up the rear. Bad water?

 

[SRATH]

I recall David Taylor getting his ass handed to him as a freshman........then went to four straight finals. You take someone who is super driven to succeed and put them in an environment which breeds success.....and you are in the final four times with four team championships.

Both the raw material and the crucible are pretty rare.

 

[ev_flores0331]

Your coach has met some pretty unreasonable expectations, and if he can keep it up then he'll have earned his spot on the Mount Rushmore of wrestling coaches. I thought Tom Brands was the next Gable until Sanderson started kicking everyone's tail at your school.

I feel that the true test is longevity. Kinda like sales, when the new guy comes in chock full of enthusiasm and eventually comes back down to earth, you know? Most good salespeople have highs and lows, the great ones find the motivation to hit the highest expectations month in and month out. Or year in and year out, in this case.

 

[matter7172]

Can't coach? Look at the progression of Frank Molinaro at PSU. Look at the difference between Zain's true freshman year and his redshirt sophomore year. I don't need to go on here. Unless you are being deliberately thick, Cael's coaching ability is patently obvious. Of course, there are a lot of people who are being deliberately thick on HR.

 

[FineMaterial]

There are some reasonable people in the HR discussion, but per Roar's advice, it's best to stay away from a dumpster fire. Only bad things will happen.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

Jealousy can drive a man to say and do some things he will regret. HR is overrun with envy, and it is understandable. I hated all things PSU from the moment Cael left us, and it took me a couple of years to let rational thought overtake my jealous rage. Iowa has had so much success and suddenly it is gone. I, as a Clone fan, had already accepted not being dominate. I can't imagine how hard it is to see your dynasty crumble at the hands of a conference rival when lead by an in state rival. Cael's accomplishments have been down played in that group for years, so this is more same old/same old. Human emotion is a fickle thing.

 

[FineMaterial]

Jealousy can drive a man to say and do some things he will regret. HR is overrun with envy, and it is understandable. I hated all things PSU from the moment Cael left us, and it took me a couple of years to let rational thought overtake my jealous rage. Iowa has had so much success and suddenly it is gone. I, as a Clone fan, had already accepted not being dominate. I can't imagine how hard it is to see your dynasty crumble at the hands of a conference rival when lead by an in state rival. Cael's accomplishments have been down played in that group for years, so this is more same old/same old. Human emotion is a fickle thing.

The thing the worst of them do that pushes my buttons is telling me, a PA person who grew up in a wrestling area, that I am new to wrestling and don't know anything. And I need to follow Iowa to learn anything. A little fact for them: There is no wrestler in Iowa that has been part of a national championship team. Watch and learn guys.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Gable's success is unparalleled. There is no question about that. However, I personally think another aspect of what differentiated Iowa in the 80s / early 90s was their extreme level of conditioning. I saw many, many matches where an Iowa opponent had as much technique, strength, and will to win as Iowa did but could not keep up with the relentless pace. In the end, an Iowa wrestler would catch them and beat them. Happened to Kolat against Ironside in a classic dual.

I believe now that many many more schools have coaches who emphasize and demand top conditioning from their wrestlers and this reduces the number of matches anyone wins solely on conditioning. This isn't to say that you still don't see someone like Nolf gas somebody ... it just doesn't happen as often as it used to and I think this has leveled the playing field somewhat vs. the Gable years.

Again, nothing against Gable as he set the standard for coaching but the rest of the nation has caught up in terms of conditioning. Iowa can't win any longer by pushing people around, snapping them down, and basically working them over until they break. Unfortunately I believe Tom Brands has held onto this approach to defeating opponents for too long and it has hurt Iowa's success a bit recently.

 

[dunkej01]

Sorry, but I'll leave my thoughts here...probably won't go over well at HR, even if my thinking is reasonable.

I love what Dan Gable has done for wrestling. Have followed wrestling since 1974 as a college freshman, and throughout my life have met and talked with Dan several times. Awesome ambassador for our sport, and his accomplishments speak for themselves.

However, he was recruiting in a different era, and I personally find the comparisons one of apples to oranges. Looking to make this a bragging rights discussion (or argument, since some folks can't help themselves as they head into the dumpster fire), just to say "nanny, nanny, boo, boo...my coach is better than your coach" is ridiculous.

With all the high-schooler's travelling to regional and national tournaments (more now than ever), access by ranking agencies or individuals to videos, social media, etc., the rankings are more accurate, and frankly the talent level is such that "coaching up" a kid just isn't the same.

Again, I recognize what Dan did, his accomplishments were terrific, but trying to downplay, or even belittle what our coaching staff is doing is flat out misinformed.

The voice of continued reason, nicely said.

 

[WildTurk]

Haha! You boys ready for the season to start or what?!!

 

[tomsc]

Can't coach? Look at the progression of Frank Molinaro at PSU. Look at the difference between Zain's true freshman year and his redshirt sophomore year. I don't need to go on here. Unless you are being deliberately thick, Cael's coaching ability is patently obvious. Of course, there are a lot of people who are being deliberately thick on HR.

As we all know, there are a good number of examples of non-blue chip recruits who have developped very well in the Cael era: English and Conaway are 2 prime examples. But there are others as well: Pearsall's development after a horrible Fr year; Gingrich (who might well have been AA if it hadn't been for Lawson), Vollrath--he didn't get the chance to AA being on the bench, but he did have one of the few wins over Dieringer, etc etc. You can argue it the other way. It's hard to develop a lot of lower ranked guys, if you have so many topped ranked guys in the line-up! Is there really any coach out there that would say, "I prefer to get lower ranked guys so I can develop them"?

I would say, though, that even if the 2 eras are apple and oranges, Gable still sets the standard for college wrestling coaching success. That many national titles (I can't come up with the number at the moment) is unsurpassed at present. It's the standard that we all hope Cael & staff will one day pass!

 

[SRATH]

Folks with more wrestling experience may have a different perspective, but I think Cael's success has elevated everyone's game. Look at the field this year.......a bunch of contenders and an even larger contingent of teams who will be chasing top five. We have won 5 of the last 7 and may have our best team yet, and could finish outside the top three.

 

[RoarLions1]

EVOLVE, or fall behind. It's a different landscape, and a different world than 1978 - 1997. And again, absolutely no disrespect for Dan Gable.

There are parallels in other sports. John Wooden comes to mind.

 

[Brian LB-U]

Sorry, but I'll leave my thoughts here...probably won't go over well at HR, even if my thinking is reasonable.

I love what Dan Gable has done for wrestling. Have followed wrestling since 1974 as a college freshman, and throughout my life have met and talked with Dan several times. Awesome ambassador for our sport, and his accomplishments speak for themselves.

However, he was recruiting in a different era, and I personally find the comparisons one of apples to oranges. Looking to make this a bragging rights discussion (or argument, since some folks can't help themselves as they head into the dumpster fire), just to say "nanny, nanny, boo, boo...my coach is better than your coach" is ridiculous.

With all the high-schooler's travelling to regional and national tournaments (more now than ever), access by ranking agencies or individuals to videos, social media, etc., the rankings are more accurate, and frankly the talent level is such that "coaching up" a kid just isn't the same.

Again, I recognize what Dan did, his accomplishments were terrific, but trying to downplay, or even belittle what our coaching staff is doing is flat out misinformed.

Perfectly stated, as usual. Comparing what the legendary Dan Gable accomplished or how successfully he recruited (pre-Internet) from 1976-1997 to what Cael is doing today is silly.

Sanderson's job is to compete for championships and to help his wrestlers fullfill their potential both on the mat and in the classroom. What matters is how he doing relative to his peers, not somebody who is two generations removed from the sport. Cael's results to date speak for themselves, and he's only 37-years-old. God willing, he'll be leading the Penn State program for a very long time.

 

[RoarLions1]

Folks with more wrestling experience may have a different perspective, but I think Cael's success has elevated everyone's game. Look at the field this year.......a bunch of contenders and an even larger contingent of teams who will be chasing top five. We have won 5 of the last 6 and may have our best team yet, and could finish outside the top three.

FIFY

 

[CowboyUp61]

Folks with more wrestling experience may have a different perspective, but I think Cael's success has elevated everyone's game. Look at the field this year.......a bunch of contenders and an even larger contingent of teams who will be chasing top five. We have won 5 of the last 7 and may have our best team yet, and could finish outside the top three.

FIFY

I would say 6 of the last 85

 

[jtothemfp]

I would say 6 of the last 85

Ha! I'll allow it.

But only if you're a Poke fan who acknowledges that there was no official team scoring at the 1928, 1931 & 1933 NCAA Championships and, as such, Oklahoma State has only won 31 of 86 Championships

 

[CowboyUp61]

I know someone who kept score, and I will take their word.
It is a good thing for wrestling that there are so many high-level kids coming in everywhere. Of course, I am not going to touch the original argument-I am quite happy with our coach, both currently and for the last 89 years

Edit; I forgot my smiley face!.

 

[lockhavenlion3]

I know someone who kept score, and I will take their word.
It is a good thing for wrestling that there are so many high-level kids coming in everywhere. Of course, I am not going to touch the original argument-I am quite happy with our coach, both currently and for the last 89 years

Edit; I forgot my smiley face!.

ancient history.

 

[ev_flores0331]

Is it just me or do you guys see the link between new coaches that are fresh from competition, and initial success? Five titles in six years is more than just initial success, but I'm talking about how Gable, Smith, Brands, and Sanderson all won a title immediately after taking over?

It makes me think a guy like Taylor or Dake, guys really popular even outside their school fan bases, would be huge for a school like Pitt or Michigan State. At least in the short term...

Edit: yeah, I know Brands and Sanderson had gigs before they got to Iowa and Penn State, but I think we all agree they would have had the same success if they skipped the lower-tier pit stops.

 

[NoVa Lion]

I would say 6 of the last 85

So Smith has only won 3 of the last 85. Same thing for Brands. Hmmmmm. I'd call that hoisted on your own petard.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Folks with more wrestling experience may have a different perspective, but I think Cael's success has elevated everyone's game. Look at the field this year.......a bunch of contenders and an even larger contingent of teams who will be chasing top five. We have won 5 of the last 7 and may have our best team yet, and could finish outside the top three.

That is a very good point. Same thing has happened to the BIG when it comes to football and women's volleyball. Prior to PSU joining the BIG for football the BIG was tOSU, Michigan and the little 8. Women's volleyball was pretty average in the BIG. Even wrestling was no where near where it is now.

 

[El-Jefe]

Makes you wonder how a guy like DT would do at a place like Pittsburgh, right?

David Taylor would not have gone to a place like Pitt.

 

[ev_flores0331]

David Taylor would not have gone to a place like Pitt.

Are we both talking about DT coaching?

 

[nitlion6]

He was talking competing.
Coaching? If the Pitt athletic department had any interest in achieving wrestling success they would place someone on Taylor's doorstep with a strong alum backed checkbook and nag him until he said yes. Pitt being Pitt, they will choose to continue to suck or with a better hire than they currently have strive for something above below average before they accept a Penn State alum as a coach.

 

[nitlion6]

That is a very good point. Same thing has happened to the BIG when it comes to football and women's volleyball. Prior to PSU joining the BIG for football the BIG was tOSU, Michigan and the little 8. Women's volleyball was pretty average in the BIG. Even wrestling was no where near where it is now.

NOVA,
When talking football with any nonPSUer from the B1G I just point out. 1969 to 1992 no championships and a 7-18 Rose Bowl record. Prior to Penn State's entry into the conference the Big-10 had become a football joke. Joey taught the idiots how to play at that level, so instead of talking shit i appreciate it when they just say thank-you.

John Smith has won 5 of the past 85 championships.

 

[CowboyUp61]

So Smith has only won 3 of the last 85. Same thing for Brands. Hmmmmm. I'd call that hoisted on your own petard.

C'mon NoVa, you can count better than that.

 

[nitlion6]

Is it just me or do you guys see the link between new coaches that are fresh from competition, and initial success? Five titles in six years is more than just initial success, but I'm talking about how Gable, Smith, Brands, and Sanderson all won a title immediately after taking over?

It makes me think a guy like Taylor or Dake, guys really popular even outside their school fan bases, would be huge for a school like Pitt or Michigan State. At least in the short term...

Edit: yeah, I know Brands and Sanderson had gigs before they got to Iowa and Penn State, but I think we all agree they would have had the same success if they skipped the lower-tier pit stops.

Personally, no way I can bring myself to refer to Iowa State as a lower-tier pit stop.

 

[nitlion6]

I did post of the HR site that Dan Gable's record speaks for itself and his wrestling greatness, as competitor, coach or ambassador is without question or challenge. Actually, to question Gable's greatness would basically paint oneself as a wrestling imbecile.

Cael's record speaks for itself also. Whether as a competitor, a coach or ambassador to attempt to deny Cael's wrestling greatness is to paint oneself as a wrestling - well you know, if the shoe fits.

 

[Azchief32]

Can't coach? Look at the progression of Frank Molinaro at PSU. Look at the difference between Zain's true freshman year and his redshirt sophomore year. I don't need to go on here. Unless you are being deliberately thick, Cael's coaching ability is patently obvious. Of course, there are a lot of people who being deliberately thick on HR.

Molinaro and Zain are probably not good examples of "coaching up." Frank was an AA before Cael stepped on campus. Zain beat an eventual 4 timer but had two losses to him plus one to Port his true freshman year to finish 4th. About the best one can say is that Zain made the leap from very, very good to dominate.

And no, very few are being "thick" on HR. Nobody is denying what Cael has done (or at least very few). IMO, it is a debate about development vs recruiting...both components of coaching in college wrestling. Have to be both to some degree.

 

[ev_flores0331]

Personally, no way I can bring myself to refer to Iowa State as a lower-tier pit stop.

Yeah, that was poorly worded on my part.

I have no idea which AD's prioritize wrestling but at a big school with decent backing I think a big name like Taylor or Dake would really rock and roll. I mean, being able to go with a world-class wrestler day in and day out? That's clearly played a part in the initial success of Smith, Brands, and Sanderson, right?

 

[nitlion6]

Molinaro and Zain are probably not good examples of "coaching up." Frank was an AA before Cael stepped on campus. Zain beat an eventual 4 timer but had two losses to him plus one to Port his true freshman year to finish 4th. About the best one can say is that Zain made the leap from very, very good to dominate.

And no, very few are being "thick" on HR. Nobody is denying what Cael has done (or at least very few). IMO, it is a debate about development vs recruiting...both components of coaching in college wrestling. Have to be both to some degree.

Ah Chief,
Come on now. The whole conversation is a typical my daddy can beat your daddy up conversation. It's barely disguised as a development versus recruiting thread. It is our hall of fame retired head coach was better than those guys' future hall of fame coach is thread.
Just another, differently colored effort to rationalize the thought Iowa wrestling is still the greatest.

 

[dicemen99]

Molinaro and Zain are probably not good examples of "coaching up." Frank was an AA before Cael stepped on campus. Zain beat an eventual 4 timer but had two losses to him plus one to Port his true freshman year to finish 4th. About the best one can say is that Zain made the leap from very, very good to dominate.

And no, very few are being "thick" on HR. Nobody is denying what Cael has done (or at least very few). IMO, it is a debate about development vs recruiting...both components of coaching in college wrestling. Have to be both to some degree.

I posted over there, but would be interested to hear your thoughts on my take that development of college wrestlers is a whole different animal in 2016 than it was in 1980.

 

[El-Jefe]

Are we both talking about DT coaching?

No, I misinterpreted to mean as a wrestler, though nitlion6 mostly captured my thoughts.

Pitt doesn't have an Olympic RTC. Do they even have any graduates training in residence? Point is, that program needs a structural upgrade. Someone who has never been an assistant, who has no experience in overcoming admin bureaucracy and gladhanding alumni, Is ill-equipped to realize that program's potential.

There's a reason Pitt finished last in the ACC last year. Pitt has enough local talent to field a better team than that, but (except Duke) the other schools have all built better programs with better foundations. And that's just within the ACC.

 

[El-Jefe]

Yeah, that was poorly worded on my part.

I have no idea which AD's prioritize wrestling but at a big school with decent backing I think a big name like Taylor or Dake would really rock and roll. I mean, being able to go with a world-class wrestler day in and day out? That's clearly played a part in the initial success of Smith, Brands, and Sanderson, right?

After they spent time coaching, as an assistant at a top 10 type program and/or head coach somewhere, sure.

Being the CEO of a top program involves a whole lot more than being a splashy name in some recruit's living room plus being a good youth clinic coach.