Comparing Weight Classes - 2017/18

[RoarLions1]

My belief is that winning an individual National Championship is an amazing feat, and one to be extremely proud of. Doesn't matter the caliber of competition, the "luck" in having higher seeds lose early in the Championship Bracket, or any other excuse. Small-minded people (my opinion) will make those excuses, at times, for a guy, just because they don't like him (what does that even mean?), or he wrestles for the evil empire (enter team of your choice here), which I also don't understand. After all, a National Champ just beat everyone that was in front of him, and the guy can't possibly do more than that, right?

In another thread "165", the discussion turned to whether 165, or some other weight class, is the toughest this year. The discussions in that thread were good, with a variety of views. My statement was that all the weight classes had intrigue, every one with it's own compelling story. Here's one way, not necessarily the right way, of adding to the discussion, by including an "AA Count", or how many All-American honors return within a weight class. Other facts are included too.

125
Two Champs return, in Cruz and Tomasello. Also, in total, 12 previous All-American honors return, or the 2nd highest of any weight class. Add Suriano, and it's arguable that 125 is the 2nd toughest weight class, by this metric.

133
No returning champs, and the fewest returning AA honors, at 4, and this weight class, by this measure, is relegated to the basement.

141
With a 2-timer, Heil, going for #3, and a total of 14 returning AA honors, this weight class, by this measure, is #1, outdistancing 125.

149
Another weight class with a 2-timer, Retherford, going for #3, and a total of 11 returning AA honors, tied for 3rd using this metric.

157
Believe it or not, 157 is tied for 3rd using this measure. With 11 returning AA honors, and the returning champ, Nolf, it shares this spot with 149.

165
With 2 returning champs, Joseph and IMar, and one of them a 2-timer going for #3, I understand the argument to make this class higher. By the numbers, it's still in the top half of the weight classes, coming in at #5 with 10 returning AA honors.

174
With a returning champ, Hall, and a total of 9 returning AA honors, 174 is tied for 6th.

184
184 is one of 3 weight classes with 2 returning National Champs. Still, the total of returning AA honors, at 6, and this weight class, by this measure, is not strong, coming in at #9.

197
With no returning champs, and 7 returning AA honors, 197 comes in at #8 overall.

285
The 4th weight class with a 2-timer, Snyder, going for #3, 285 is stronger than others might think, tying 174 for 6th on this list.

 

[PSUisawesome]

My belief is that winning an individual National Championship is an amazing feat, and one to be extremely proud of. Doesn't matter the caliber of competition, the "luck" in having higher seeds lose early in the Championship Bracket, or any other excuse. Small-minded people (my opinion) will make those excuses, at times, for a guy, just because they don't like him (what does that even mean?), or he wrestles for the evil empire (enter team of your choice here), which I also don't understand. After all, a National Champ just beat everyone that was in front of him, and the guy can't possibly do more than that, right?

In another thread "165", the discussion turned to whether 165, or some other weight class, is the toughest this year. The discussions in that thread were good, with a variety of views. My statement was that all the weight classes had intrigue, every one with it's own compelling story. Here's one way, not necessarily the right way, of adding to the discussion, by including an "AA Count", or how many All-American honors return within a weight class. Other facts are included too.

125
Two Champs return, in Cruz and Tomasello. Also, in total, 12 previous All-American honors return, or the 2nd highest of any weight class. Add Suriano, and it's arguable that 125 is the 2nd toughest weight class, by this metric.

133
No returning champs, and the fewest returning AA honors, at 4, and this weight class, by this measure, is relegated to the basement.

141
With a 2-timer, Heil, going for #3, and a total of 14 returning AA honors, this weight class, by this measure, is #1, outdistancing 125.

149
Another weight class with a 2-timer, Retherford, going for #3, and a total of 11 returning AA honors, tied for 3rd using this metric.

157
Believe it or not, 157 is tied for 3rd using this measure. With 11 returning AA honors, and the returning champ, Nolf, it shares this spot with 149.

165
With 2 returning champs, Joseph and IMar, and one of them a 2-timer going for #3, I understand the argument to make this class higher. By the numbers, it's still in the top half of the weight classes, coming in at #5 with 10 returning AA honors.

174
With a returning champ, Hall, and a total of 9 returning AA honors, 174 is tied for 6th.

184
184 is one of 3 weight classes with 2 returning National Champs. Still, the total of returning AA honors, at 6, and this weight class, by this measure, is not strong, coming in at #9.

197
With no returning champs, and 7 returning AA honors, 197 comes in at #8 overall.

285
The 4th weight class with a 2-timer, Snyder, going for #3, 285 is stronger than others might think, tying 174 for 6th on this list.

Wow thanks this will be a perspective I will draw on as the seasons unfolds. It will be interesting to see what actually takes place. Thanks

 

[NittanyChris]

Certainly the best any National Champ can do is beat whoever is put in front of him.

However, sometimes a Champ is faced with a higher percentage of top flight competition and by beating better P4P wrestlers, one Champ's achievement can be argued to be more impressive than a Champ who has faced lesser competition (even though this is not the fault of the Champ).

I don't think this is an unreasonable assertion at all.

Lastly, the manner in which a wrestler beats his competitors certainly is a criteria that should be considered when determining the greatness of a wrestler's accomplishment.

Zain and Heil can both finish their careers as 3x Champions. Are we to then assume that their careers have been equally impressive? I would argue, most certainly not.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Zain and Heil can both finish their careers as 3x Champions. Are we to then assume that their careers have been equally impressive? I would argue, most certainly not.

Not even the most diehard OSU fan would argue the point.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Certainly the best any National Champ can do is beat whoever is put in front of him.

However, sometimes a Champ is faced with a higher percentage of top flight competition and by beating better P4P wrestlers, one Champ's achievement can be argued to be more impressive than a Champ who has faced lesser competition (even though this is not the fault of the Champ).

I don't think this is an unreasonable assertion at all.

Lastly, the manner in which a wrestler beats his competitors certainly is a criteria that should be considered when determining the greatness of a wrestler's accomplishment.

Zain and Heil can both finish their careers as 3x Champions. Are we to then assume that their careers have been equally impressive? I would argue, most certainly not.

My belief is that winning an individual National Championship is an amazing feat, and one to be extremely proud of. Doesn't matter the caliber of competition, the "luck" in having higher seeds lose early in the Championship Bracket, or any other excuse. Small-minded people (my opinion) will make those excuses, at times, for a guy, just because they don't like him (what does that even mean?), or he wrestles for the evil empire (enter team of your choice here), which I also don't understand. After all, a National Champ just beat everyone that was in front of him, and the guy can't possibly do more than that, right?

In another thread "165", the discussion turned to whether 165, or some other weight class, is the toughest this year. The discussions in that thread were good, with a variety of views. My statement was that all the weight classes had intrigue, every one with it's own compelling story. Here's one way, not necessarily the right way, of adding to the discussion, by including an "AA Count", or how many All-American honors return within a weight class. Other facts are included too.

125
Two Champs return, in Cruz and Tomasello. Also, in total, 12 previous All-American honors return, or the 2nd highest of any weight class. Add Suriano, and it's arguable that 125 is the 2nd toughest weight class, by this metric.

133
No returning champs, and the fewest returning AA honors, at 4, and this weight class, by this measure, is relegated to the basement.

141
With a 2-timer, Heil, going for #3, and a total of 14 returning AA honors, this weight class, by this measure, is #1, outdistancing 125.

149
Another weight class with a 2-timer, Retherford, going for #3, and a total of 11 returning AA honors, tied for 3rd using this metric.

157
Believe it or not, 157 is tied for 3rd using this measure. With 11 returning AA honors, and the returning champ, Nolf, it shares this spot with 149.

165
With 2 returning champs, Joseph and IMar, and one of them a 2-timer going for #3, I understand the argument to make this class higher. By the numbers, it's still in the top half of the weight classes, coming in at #5 with 10 returning AA honors.

174
With a returning champ, Hall, and a total of 9 returning AA honors, 174 is tied for 6th.

184
184 is one of 3 weight classes with 2 returning National Champs. Still, the total of returning AA honors, at 6, and this weight class, by this measure, is not strong, coming in at #9.

197
With no returning champs, and 7 returning AA honors, 197 comes in at #8 overall.

285
The 4th weight class with a 2-timer, Snyder, going for #3, 285 is stronger than others might think, tying 174 for 6th on this list.

I'm in both camps. As someone who pulled for Mark last season only to see people try to minimize his achievement I think Roar is articulating a profound sporting ethos. The kid beat everyone put in front of him. He deserves the respect period. On the other hand the courage and artistry of a Zain also needs to be acknowledged.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I'm in both camps. As someone who pulled for Mark last season only to see people try to minimize his achievement I think Roar is articulating a profound sporting ethos. The kid beat everyone put in front of him. He deserves the respect period. On the other hand the courage and artistry of a Zain also needs to be acknowledged.

I may have missed it, but who minimized the achievement of a true freshman national champ last year? That would be ridiculous.

 

[Antaeus]

Certainly the best any National Champ can do is beat whoever is put in front of him.

However, sometimes a Champ is faced with a higher percentage of top flight competition and by beating better P4P wrestlers, one Champ's achievement can be argued to be more impressive than a Champ who has faced lesser competition (even though this is not the fault of the Champ).

I don't think this is an unreasonable assertion at all.

Lastly, the manner in which a wrestler beats his competitors certainly is a criteria that should be considered when determining the greatness of a wrestler's accomplishment.

Zain and Heil can both finish their careers as 3x Champions. Are we to then assume that their careers have been equally impressive? I would argue, most certainly not.

With access to the raw data, the best way might be to calculate a weighted average based upon the number of points generated in all previous NCAA championships by each individual in each weight class. Once you objectively established what the point generation strength was of each returning wrestler in each weight class, you could then subjectively factor in the newcomers based upon some agreed upon criteria that everyone thought to be fair.

Just a thought as to how encapsulate some of your comments into Roar’s great start of a awesome thread.

 

[RoarLions1]

Certainly the best any National Champ can do is beat whoever is put in front of him.

However, sometimes a Champ is faced with a higher percentage of top flight competition and by beating better P4P wrestlers, one Champ's achievement can be argued to be more impressive than a Champ who has faced lesser competition (even though this is not the fault of the Champ).

I don't think this is an unreasonable assertion at all.

Lastly, the manner in which a wrestler beats his competitors certainly is a criteria that should be considered when determining the greatness of a wrestler's accomplishment.

Zain and Heil can both finish their careers as 3x Champions. Are we to then assume that their careers have been equally impressive? I would argue, most certainly not.

Not sure where my analysis says anything about a "Champs achievement" being better than another's...that's an entirely different discussion. The exercise was simply another way to look at an entire weight class, and weigh it's strength, top-to-bottom, as compared to others. Nothing more, nothing less.