Dake vs. Dieringer

[Ingraider]

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2019/July/02/Dake-v-Dieringer-in-Austin-on-August-17

USA Wrestling has announced that the Final X Special-Wrestle-off for the 79 kg position on the 2019 U.S. Senior World Team between 2018 World champion Kyle Dake (Ithaca, N.Y./Titan Mercury WC/Finger Lakes RTC) and 2019 World Team Trials Challenge Tournament champion Alex Dieringer (Stillwater, Okla./Titan Mercury WC/Cowboy RTC) will be held on Saturday, August 17 in Austin, Texas.

 

[86PSUPaul]

Time and venue yet to be decided. Just date and city.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Time and venue yet to be decided. Just date and city.

that way Flo doesn't have to travel. But I wonder if they will have to take a mat to Austin?

 

[bowandarrow]

Rooting against Dake whilst he wrestles domestic opponents is something I enjoy doing. Dieringer is getting a raw deal here, hope he wins.

 

[Gray52]

I’ll disagree with the raw deal. Athletes do it all the time... an injured baseball player does a little stint in AA ball before playing against real competition. If the date was set, I don’t think anyone should be telling Dake how to prepare for his Final X.
I can be convinced otherwise, however. I just haven’t heard a good argument yet, other than “it’s just not fair.”

 

[86PSUPaul]

I am just not sure how it is unfair? Does the later date affect Derringers training for the next stage if he was to win? Is it just because that gives Dake “too much” recovery time?

I don’t get it.

 

[LemonPie]

Finally a major event in my area! Gonna get Nickal/Woodley as well?

 

[tikk10]

I am just not sure how it is unfair? Does the later date affect Derringers training for the next stage if he was to win? Is it just because that gives Dake “too much” recovery time?

I don’t get it.

I think it's unfair because the later the process drags on, the more prejudiced Ringer is by it, who basically has to operate on a wholly separate training schedule from all other WT members. And while some of that prejudice is baked into the process that grants some deference including a delay to a returning World Champ, Dake's original doctor's note stating that he couldn't wrestle until mid August was clearly, in retrospect, given his evident ability to actually wrestle this coming weekend, not at all accurate, one might even say fraudulent.

 

[pish69]

I’ll disagree with the raw deal. Athletes do it all the time... an injured baseball player does a little stint in AA ball before playing against real competition. If the date was set, I don’t think anyone should be telling Dake how to prepare for his Final X.
I can be convinced otherwise, however. I just haven’t heard a good argument yet, other than “it’s just not fair.”

Agree 100%. That’s the perks of being a world champ. Too much crying going on by Flo about this. The guy was injured, working his way back and wants to make sure he at 100% before competing.

The idea is to get the best team out there

 

[dunkej01]

that way Flo doesn't have to travel. But I wonder if they will have to take a mat to Austin?

Willie runs D1 recruiting and now USA wrestling

#greatestmindinrassling
#dakeallday
#willthestreamwork

 

[bowandarrow]

I’ll disagree with the raw deal. Athletes do it all the time... an injured baseball player does a little stint in AA ball before playing against real competition. If the date was set, I don’t think anyone should be telling Dake how to prepare for his Final X.
I can be convinced otherwise, however. I just haven’t heard a good argument yet, other than “it’s just not fair.”

Solid analogy with minor league baseball, I will admit. If FLO is to be believed, Dake has been playing games all along. Delaying the wrestle off was fine to me, that was within the spirit of the law/rules/agreement. Going from can't wrestle until August to wrestling in July is disingenuous to me.

They wouldn't move the world series or even a random Tuesday game for an injury to Mike Trout. Injuries are a part of every sport.

 

[86PSUPaul]

I think it's unfair because the later the process drags on, the more prejudiced Ringer is by it, who basically has to operate on a wholly separate training schedule from all other WT members. And while some of that prejudice is baked into the process that grants some deference including a delay to a returning World Champ, Dake's original doctor's note stating that he couldn't wrestle until mid August was clearly, in retrospect, given his evident ability to actually wrestle this coming weekend, not at all accurate, one might even say fraudulent.

I just listened to Flo and found out about the tournament in Spain. It is fishy if his doctors note keeps changing but still see no real loss to Derringer.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Dake's been out for a long time from injury. He will be coming into this a bit rusty due to lack of all out competition, and can't even train all out with DT. I think it is totally fair, and enjoyable for all of us to watch.

What is unfair is DT on the sidelines as a world champ due to a fluke injury.

 

[RoarLions1]

Wrestle the best at his best. Win and go to the World Championships, lose and continue working hard for your next shot. Either way, the winner gets my cheers when they're on the world stage. Not sure I understand any of the angst.

 

[psumacw]

the flo guys kept saying how this is going to make usa wrestling change some of the procedures going forward and it makes me think that maybe that's what dake was trying to accomplish all along

 

[slushhead]

Wrestle the best at his best. Win and go to the World Championships, lose and continue working hard for your next shot. Either way, the winner gets my cheers when they're on the world stage. Not sure I understand any of the angst.

I know you know this, but let's just put it right out there -- a lot of PSU fans (self included) still begrudge Dake for his folkstyle style and his personality. It's a lot easier to root for a guy like Dieringer, and so anything that could be perceived as a slight or disadvantage to him in this situation will be scrutinized.

 

[dunkej01]

I know you know this, but let's just put it right out there -- a lot of PSU fans (self included) still begrudge Dake for his folkstyle style and his personality. It's a lot easier to root for a guy like Dieringer, and so anything that could be perceived as a slight or disadvantage to him in this situation will be scrutinized.

Dake is a polarizing wrestling personality. I also think he likes it that way.

 

[slushhead]

Dake is a polarizing wrestling personality. I also think he likes it that way.

I know nothing of polarizing personalities.

 

[86PSUPaul]

No angst on my part, but it is a strange timetable as follows
Produce doctor note saying can’t wrestle until August
Set match for right after that date
Start rolling in room prior to that date
Enter International competition a month prior to date
Says I will get new doctor note for new date if necessary (not sure if he actually said thIs, but heard he did)

But I do generally agree he should be able to at his best so we have our best and I really don’t think it effects Ringer.

 

[El-Jefe]

Dake is a polarizing wrestling personality. I also think he likes it that way.

 

[El-Jefe]

No angst on my part, but it is a strange timetable as follows
Produce doctor note saying can’t wrestle until August
Set match for right after that date
Start rolling in room prior to that date
Enter International competition a month prior to date
Says I will get new doctor note for new date if necessary (not sure if he actually said thIs, but heard he did)

But I do generally agree he should be able to at his best so we have our best and I really don’t think it effects Ringer.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

If Ringer is feeling like he is getting a raw deal,all he has to do is go out there and beat Dake, then place at Worlds and then he will have the very same perks that KD is taking advantage of.

 

[ss7]

If Ringer is feeling like he is getting a raw deal,all he has to do is go out there and beat Dake, then place at Worlds and then he will have the very same perks that KD is taking advantage of.

Except 79 kg is a non-Olympic weight. So unless Ringer just doesn't care about wrestling in the Olympics, he won't have those very same perks.

 

[CowboyUp61]

If Ringer is feeling like he is getting a raw deal,all he has to do is go out there and beat Dake, then place at Worlds and then he will have the very same perks that KD is taking advantage of.

Those last 5 words are the problem. He is taking advantage (gaming) of the system. And probably screwing it up for the future in the process.

Does anyone think that if he wasn't ready to wrestle, he would be going to Spain?

 

[bigbopper1985]

I'm really surprised at how many Penn State fans have a negative attitude toward Dake. After watching the Taylor/Dake documentary on Flo it definitely changed my opinion of Kyle. It seems as though David Taylor doesn't hold any animosity toward him. He was just Taylor's kryptonite. I think he would be our best representative for the olympics if he is healthy.

 

[El-Jefe]

TL;DR version of the thread below: the committee fthought Dake was manipulating the system, put in protections, and then backed off when Dake did exactly what they anticpated.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

STALLING!!!!

 

[tikk10]

I'm really surprised at how many Penn State fans have a negative attitude toward Dake. After watching the Taylor/Dake documentary on Flo it definitely changed my opinion of Kyle. It seems as though David Taylor doesn't hold any animosity toward him. He was just Taylor's kryptonite. I think he would be our best representative for the olympics if he is healthy.

I actually have a pretty positive view of Dake; after DT he was the one guy I wasn't going to miss. And I think he stands a better chance than Dieringer to medal, even if he's nursing an injury. But that's all entirely beside the point, because I also think he's unfairly gaming the system.

All these top-tier guys have strict training schedules and Dieringer shouldn't have to wait until Dake feels like wrestling, they should wrestle at the first opportunity Dake is cleared to wrestle. It's already an imposition on the challenger when the incumbent can't go at Final X, but the imposition goes from reasonable to unreasonable when the incumbent can dictate the process through obviously-suspect doctors' notes.

 

[RoarLions1]

Finally a major event in my area! Gonna get Nickal/Woodley as well?

Are you considering going? If so, a report would be nice .

 

[RoarLions1]

I'm really surprised at how many Penn State fans have a negative attitude toward Dake. After watching the Taylor/Dake documentary on Flo it definitely changed my opinion of Kyle. It seems as though David Taylor doesn't hold any animosity toward him. He was just Taylor's kryptonite. I think he would be our best representative for the olympics if he is healthy.

For many that I've talked with, I take it as fans being fans. He beat our guy is where it started, based solely on my conversations. I do get the opportunity to talk to lots of fans though, so sample size is big enough. From there, every perceived misstep was amplified.

 

[psumacw]

I actually have a pretty positive view of Dake; after DT he was the one guy I wasn't going to miss. And I think he stands a better chance than Dieringer to medal, even if he's nursing an injury. But that's all entirely beside the point, because I also think he's unfairly gaming the system.

All these top-tier guys have strict training schedules and Dieringer shouldn't have to wait until Dake feels like wrestling, they should wrestle at the first opportunity Dake is cleared to wrestle. It's already an imposition on the challenger when the incumbent can't go at Final X, but the imposition goes from reasonable to unreasonable when the incumbent can dictate the process through obviously-suspect doctors' notes.

the thing is, he's doing everything within the rules that were specified before the competition began and that everyone agreed to. the rules said if he's injured he can request a delay in the series, so he did. the wrestleoff could actually be later according to the rules. dake doesn't owe it to anyone to put himself in a worse position, he owes it to himself to get into the best position possible for him.

if the rules change for next year because of these actions, so be it, but there's not anything "unfair" about what he's doing.

 

[LemonPie]

Are you considering going? If so, a report would be nice .

I will be there!

 

[bowandarrow]

I'm really surprised at how many Penn State fans have a negative attitude toward Dake. After watching the Taylor/Dake documentary on Flo it definitely changed my opinion of Kyle. It seems as though David Taylor doesn't hold any animosity toward him. He was just Taylor's kryptonite. I think he would be our best representative for the olympics if he is healthy.

I'm more of a brunette guy.

 

[tikk10]

the thing is, he's doing everything within the rules that were specified before the competition began and that everyone agreed to. the rules said if he's injured he can request a delay in the series, so he did. the wrestleoff could actually be later according to the rules. dake doesn't owe it to anyone to put himself in a worse position, he owes it to himself to get into the best position possible for him.

if the rules change for next year because of these actions, so be it, but there's not anything "unfair" about what he's doing.

The term within the rules is doing some heavy lifting there, a judge might say, given that the rules presume the legitimacy of the required doctor's note, and the doctor's note(s) proffered by Dake are evidently dubious. Had the rules presumed to include fraudulent doctors' notes, the rules might have explicitly stated so.

 

[psumacw]

The term within the rules is doing some heavy lifting there, a judge might say, given that the rules presume the legitimacy of the required doctor's note, and the doctor's note(s) proffered by Dake are evidently dubious. Had the rules presumed to include fraudulent doctors' notes, the rules might have explicitly stated so.

the deferral rules state the note must be from a "USA Wrestling-approved medical doctor" so presumably this doctor has been vetted beforehand by the usa wrestling.

but i haven't seen the note(s) so my assumption, based on the granting of a deferred wrestleoff by the governing body, that all rules (as written) have been satisfied in dake's request. if you have a copy of the note(s) i would love to see it. that would clear up a lot of the speculation going on in threads like these.

 

[tikk10]

the deferral rules state the note must be from a "USA Wrestling-approved medical doctor" so presumably this doctor has been vetted beforehand by the usa wrestling.

but i haven't seen the note(s) so my assumption, based on the granting of a deferred wrestleoff by the governing body, that all rules (as written) have been satisfied in dake's request. if you have a copy of the note(s) i would love to see it. that would clear up a lot of the speculation going on in threads like these.

I'm going by what's been reported, which, given that it remains undisputed by anyone, I feel relatively comfortable relying on. And the USA Wrestling story.

On June 4, days prior to when he was scheduled to wrestle in Final X, Dake evidently produced a doctor's note supporting his contention that he had a "freak accident" that "required surgery," which note gave a date or time-frame of mid-August as the earliest he'd be healthy enough to wrestle again. Accordingly, Dieringer's camp agreed to hold the wrestle-off August 17.

Only four weeks later, and six weeks prior to the agreed-upon wrestle-off date, Dake is evidently healthy enough to wrestle in Europe this coming weekend. Dake reportedly provided a second doctor's note attesting to his health with respect to wrestling so soon.

Flo also reported that Dake has been working out with partners for weeks, which partners have been raving about how well he's looking. Taken together, serious doubts can be reasonably entertained as to the extent of Dake's injury, his candor re same, and the doctor whose note Dake provided as the basis for the mid-August estimate.

Now, it could be the case that Dake's doctor's initial mid-August assessment was made in good faith, after which time Dake recovered from surgery more that twice as fast as originally expected, after which time it was too late to move up the Dieringer wrestle-off... But it'd be a pretty extraordinary array of coincidences so I'll go with the Occam's Razor explanation that Dake is just carefully gaming and making a mockery of the system, at Dieringer's expense.

. Speaking as someone in close daily contact with bureaucratic systems, I'm

 

[RoarLions1]

Seems much of the rule, rule-making, and rule-changing was done on the fly. For one that believes we need rules to prevent total chaos, I'm not sure what to make of everything given a good bit is behind the scenes.

 

[El-Jefe]

For many that I've talked with, I take it as fans being fans. He beat our guy is where it started, based solely on my conversations. I do get the opportunity to talk to lots of fans though, so sample size is big enough. From there, every perceived misstep was amplified.

It started with the "I choose down" skit mocking Frank Molinaro.

 

[psumacw]

@tikk10

my assumption is that doctors are smart and that it's entirely possible that the note said something along the lines of "healthy enough to wrestle alex dieringer for the world team spot" and not just "healthy enough to wrestle". i also notice that the qualification and procedures document doesn't specify when the injury is supposed to have occurred. could have been 6 months ago for all we know and he's just using the extra time to get back to his peak, i don't know.

i agree with you that it's exploiting the system. i disagree that he's out of line to do that.

 

[IANit]

I'll go with the Occam's Razor explanation that Dake is just carefully gaming and making a mockery of the system

Is it any surprise? He'd rather go into a shell and stall his way to victory rather than wrestle if it means a win.