Defensive Pins

[AgSurfer]

Since this topic does not get brought up very often, I thought I would share a discussion that I had with two very experienced refs last weekend at the CA state tournament.

They told me they are very hesitant to call a defensive pin, and that is particularly true when it's a big match. One of them even said that he would have to see the wrestlers shoulders held flat for at least 3 seconds before making the call. They told me they are well aware of what the rule book says, but that's just not how most refs actually make the call.

Seems to me that if most refs are not willing to enforce the rule as it stands now, as a practical matter it might be better to change the rule to how they really apply it. Maybe the defensive pin should require a 3 count before slapping the mat. If that was the rule, the coaches and crowds would have absolutely no excuse for throwing a temper tantrum afterwards.

 

[dunkej01]

Since this topic does not get brought up very often, I thought I would share a discussion that I had with two very experienced refs last weekend at the CA state tournament.

They told me they are very hesitant to call a defensive pin, and that is particularly true when it's a big match. One of them even said that he would have to see the wrestlers shoulders held flat for at least 3 seconds before making the call. They told me they are well aware of what the rule book says, but that's just not how most refs actually make the call.

Seems to me that if most refs are not willing to enforce the rule as it stands now, as a practical matter it might be better to change the rule to how they really apply it. Maybe the defensive pin should require a 3 count before slapping the mat. If that was the rule, the coaches and crowds would have absolutely no excuse for throwing a temper tantrum afterwards.

Agree. Free lancing is good in certain sectors but not in officiating. If thats how the ref world wants to call it then that is how the rule should be written.

I never liked the Jordan rules but they made watching him fun.

 

[El-Jefe]

... and when refs won't call the new 3-sec pin until a 5 count, then what?

It's an excuse and an admission that refs are perfectly willing to break the rules in order to change the outcomes of matches into something they can feel good about. Never mind the feelings of the wrestlers who get jobbed by it.

Here's a crazy idea: if you won't enforce the primary rule of the sport, don't be a ref.

 

[PSUcup1]

That is a disgrace that an official would admit that

 

[nitlion6]

That is a disgrace that an official would admit that

I don't think it is a disgrace. It isn't how it should be, but it is refreshing when a few acknowledge the known secret.

When discussing wrestling officials, there are two things you can be certain of.
1. At times they will make a call based on their perception of how it should be.
2. The majority (close to unanimous) of fellow officials will be right there telling them good call, good job, that's how I would have called it.

 

[diggerpup]

But would the ref call a defensive pin if he had a still photo to look at ?

 

[nitlion6]

But would the ref call a defensive pin if he had a still photo to look at ?

I get the split second and limited value as a data point that a snapshot lends to the answer of the was he pinned question.
One one-thousand is not very long and if there was any hesitation in that position he would then be pinned and the point I believe is mistakenly dismissed is Hagarty never actually positioned himself to be ready to call the pin.

 

[CowboyUp61]

I get the split second and limited value as a data point that a snapshot lends to the answer of the was he pinned question.
One one-thousand is not very long and if there was any hesitation in that position he would then be pinned and the point I believe is mistakenly dismissed is Hagarty never actually positioned himself to be ready to call the pin.

Can agree the first time this could be the case, he was slow getting down. Otherwise, he was right there expecting the position.

 

[nitlion6]

Can agree the first time this could be the case, he was slow getting down. Otherwise, he was right there expecting the position.

I am going to have to watch again. I thought he spent more time looking from his knees, like he was keeping an eye on whether he thought there was 2 and able to react if Heil got stuck stuck. I could be mistaken.

I haven't watched it since that Monday or Tuesday afterwards. Mid 50s and too much other shyt to remember.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Since this topic does not get brought up very often, I thought I would share a discussion that I had with two very experienced refs last weekend at the CA state tournament.

They told me they are very hesitant to call a defensive pin, and that is particularly true when it's a big match. One of them even said that he would have to see the wrestlers shoulders held flat for at least 3 seconds before making the call. They told me they are well aware of what the rule book says, but that's just not how most refs actually make the call.

Seems to me that if most refs are not willing to enforce the rule as it stands now, as a practical matter it might be better to change the rule to how they really apply it. Maybe the defensive pin should require a 3 count before slapping the mat. If that was the rule, the coaches and crowds would have absolutely no excuse for throwing a temper tantrum afterwards.

What about a situation where it's a "neutral pin" and the only reason it was a "neutral situation" is because the official refused to award the TD despite the "control criteria" for the specific situation being met....as well as refusing to acknowledge the pin?

 

[NittanyLion84]

Defensive pins is just one of many rules, that the majority of Refs, stray far and wide from the rule book.

 

[21Guns]

The last time I saw it called in a final, either high school or college, of a major tournament, was in the PIAA finals in 2003. That's also the last time a state championship was decided on a defensive pin.

 

[Tweedbear]

In all sports officials seem to have different criteria for the end of games than during the game. This is not fair to the players.