Good Thread

[Azchief32]

MinneHawk started a good off season thread over on HR about the best overall teams...thought you guys might want to put in your nickels worth.

https://iowa.forums.rivals.com/threads/interesting-read-during-this-slow-time.140413/

 

[Pennstate1985]

I felt dirty defending the Hawkeyes in that thread. Bathed in tomato juice to remove the stink.

 

[Pennstate1985]

It is hard for me to say that the 2012 PSU team was better than the 2001 Minny team because the 2012 PSU team lost to Minny that year, and the 01 Minny team was better than the 12 Minny team.

To be honest, I'd rather root for a team with five guys in the finals than a team with 10 AA's who don't see the finals. Wrestling is about getting to the top of the podium, not near the top.

 

[Azchief32]

Meh, the tourney is the only one that counts IMO

 

[tomsc]

With as many good wrestlers and NCAA champs as PSU has had in the past 6 years, it's amazing that we wouldn't have a top 5 team. We've had plenty of top firepower (all right, not yet 5 champs in 1 year!), but not quite enough other AA's to make a top 5 all time NCAA team. I think PSU is positioning itself to make a push for the all-time elite with the combination of lots of top firepower and great depth with many other AA's. Time will tell.

 

[RoarLions1]

These are always fun discussions. Let's compare teams from different era's (in this case, 1928 through 2016, or 89 years), with different number of weight classes (7 in 1928, increased several times to today's 10), different point schemes (3 wrestlers "placed" in 1928, gradually increased to 8 today and Placement scoring was 5-3-1 (in 1928), changing no fewer than 9 times, to today's 16-12-10-9-7-6-4-3), etc., etc., etc.

Still fun though, as the off-season can get a little slow...and reading the different fan base comments and perspective is interesting.

So guess I'll add a couple cents worth of comments;
The top-3 teams in the TOM article are the 3 at the top of the list all-time for winning margin at NCAA's; 1986 Iowa won by 73.75 Points, 1997 Iowa by 56.5, and 2005 Oklahoma State 70. Hard to argue with that if the measure is NCAA Championship performance, though #2 and #3 should be switched.

The 1941 Oklahoma State team's dominance (different era) wasn't nearly as clear, as the 1942, 1948, 1949, 1954, 1955, and 1956 Cowboy teams all had a greater margin of victory. Again, hard to compare era's, but the data doesn't suggest this team is even the best of its time.

And the 2001 Minny team, while novel with 10 AA's, only won by 13 Points, while their 2002 Championship Team won by 22.5. Does that mean the 2002 team was more dominant? And where-oh-where do they really place ALL-TIME?

The top-17 places all-time, just by winning margin, are owned by Iowa (12 of them), and Oklahoma State (5 of them). Penn State's 2012 team is 25th, while the 2 best Minnesota wins are way down the list (winning margin of 22.5 Points places them 29th in 2002 , and winning margin of 13 Points places them 48th in 2001).

I am going with the 1939 Cowboy team as the greatest ever!! Calculating the winning margin %, so we can compare different era's, this team had 175% more points than their nearest competitor (33 points to 12 points). In comparison, the 1986 Hawks only had 88% more points than 2nd Place (158 to 84.25)!!

Sorry all...can't help myself .

 

[Pennstate1985]

Nice methodology Roar in trying to evaluate teams across eras.

The 2001 Minny team did something no one else has done and are a nice trivia question, but they are not top 10 on my list.

 

[KidNittany]

These are always fun discussions. Let's compare teams from different era's (in this case, 1928 through 2016, or 89 years), with different number of weight classes (7 in 1928, increased several times to today's 10), different point schemes (3 wrestlers "placed" in 1928, gradually increased to 8 today and Placement scoring was 5-3-1 (in 1928), changing no fewer than 9 times, to today's 16-12-10-9-7-6-4-3), etc., etc., etc.

Still fun though, as the off-season can get a little slow...and reading the different fan base comments and perspective is interesting.

So guess I'll add a couple cents worth of comments;
The top-3 teams in the TOM article are the 3 at the top of the list all-time for winning margin at NCAA's; 1986 Iowa won by 73.75 Points, 1997 Iowa by 56.5, and 2005 Oklahoma State 70. Hard to argue with that if the measure is NCAA Championship performance, though #2 and #3 should be switched.

The 1941 Oklahoma State team's dominance (different era) wasn't nearly as clear, as the 1942, 1948, 1949, 1954, 1955, and 1956 Cowboy teams all had a greater margin of victory. Again, hard to compare era's, but the data doesn't suggest this team is even the best of its time.

And the 2001 Minny team, while novel with 10 AA's, only won by 13 Points, while their 2002 Championship Team won by 22.5. Does that mean the 2002 team was more dominant? And where-oh-where do they really place ALL-TIME?

The top-17 places all-time, just by winning margin, are owned by Iowa (12 of them), and Oklahoma State (5 of them). Penn State's 2012 team is 25th, while the 2 best Minnesota wins are way down the list (winning margin of 22.5 Points places them 29th in 2002 , and winning margin of 13 Points places them 48th in 2001).

I am going with the 1939 Cowboy team as the greatest ever!! Calculating the winning margin %, so we can compare different era's, this team had 175% more points than their nearest competitor (33 points to 12 points). In comparison, the 1986 Hawks only had 88% more points than 2nd Place (158 to 84.25)!!

Sorry all...can't help myself .

In terms of team competition, it's so much more competitve now that it's like comparing apples to grapeseeds. I can't really take the dust bowl teams seriously.

These discussions are always difficult since the criteria for "who the best team is" is so subjective. I'll put the 2012 PSU team up there though, considering we're in a super competitive era. 143 points in really impressive, most since 05 (speaking of really freakin' good teams, that Okie State squad).

IMO one of the Iowa teams probably has the best claims, in terms of combination of overall line-up strength and star power. One of the 83, 86, 97 squads. Probably 83

 

[OkieSpladle]

These are always fun discussions. Let's compare teams from different era's (in this case, 1928 through 2016, or 89 years), with different number of weight classes (7 in 1928, increased several times to today's 10), different point schemes (3 wrestlers "placed" in 1928, gradually increased to 8 today and Placement scoring was 5-3-1 (in 1928), changing no fewer than 9 times, to today's 16-12-10-9-7-6-4-3), etc., etc., etc.

Still fun though, as the off-season can get a little slow...and reading the different fan base comments and perspective is interesting.

So guess I'll add a couple cents worth of comments;
The top-3 teams in the TOM article are the 3 at the top of the list all-time for winning margin at NCAA's; 1986 Iowa won by 73.75 Points, 1997 Iowa by 56.5, and 2005 Oklahoma State 70. Hard to argue with that if the measure is NCAA Championship performance, though #2 and #3 should be switched.

The 1941 Oklahoma State team's dominance (different era) wasn't nearly as clear, as the 1942, 1948, 1949, 1954, 1955, and 1956 Cowboy teams all had a greater margin of victory. Again, hard to compare era's, but the data doesn't suggest this team is even the best of its time.

And the 2001 Minny team, while novel with 10 AA's, only won by 13 Points, while their 2002 Championship Team won by 22.5. Does that mean the 2002 team was more dominant? And where-oh-where do they really place ALL-TIME?

The top-17 places all-time, just by winning margin, are owned by Iowa (12 of them), and Oklahoma State (5 of them). Penn State's 2012 team is 25th, while the 2 best Minnesota wins are way down the list (winning margin of 22.5 Points places them 29th in 2002 , and winning margin of 13 Points places them 48th in 2001).

I am going with the 1939 Cowboy team as the greatest ever!! Calculating the winning margin %, so we can compare different era's, this team had 175% more points than their nearest competitor (33 points to 12 points). In comparison, the 1986 Hawks only had 88% more points than 2nd Place (158 to 84.25)!!

Sorry all...can't help myself .

Great post.

The best teams of all-time is many different things to different people. I would wager that if I wrote this article again in a different mood, my list may even change. Probably the best methodology to determine the best NCAA tournament performance is to figure out how many points a team could possibly score and then see what percentage of that they achieved.

The difficulty with using margin of victory is that you can't do much about other team's score. Sure, you can knock them down a spot here and there but, largely, they can come back and finish close to where they would have before regardless of what your own team does. The 2005 Oklahoma State team finished in front of Michigan who had 83 points. That total in 2013 would have been 4th. In 2012, it would have been fifth. I don't think that Michigan team would have scored significantly better in 2012 or 2013, there just wasn't a great second banana in 2005.

Going by pure numbers, 2001 Minnesota is out of place here, but they did something no one else has ever done so that gets them a bonus in my book. Am I taking them over all but 4 teams head-to-head? Probably not.

 

[CowboyUp61]

I am going with the 1939 Cowboy team as the greatest ever!! Calculating the winning margin %, so we can compare different era's, this team had 175% more points than their nearest competitor (33 points to 12 points). In comparison, the 1986 Hawks only had 88% more points than 2nd Place (158 to 84.25)!!

Sorry all...can't help myself .

Good Choice-although I never had the pleasure of watching that team.

 

[RoarLions1]

Here's another couple of interesting facts, though I can only go back 60 years;

1956-57: 395 NCAA Member institutions, 186 had wrestling ("Divisions" not yet created)
1961-62: 536 NCAA Member institutions, 234 had wrestling
1966-67: 577 NCAA Member institutions, 332 had wrestling
1971-72: 663 NCAA Member institutions, 393 had wrestling
1976-77: 722 NCAA Member institutions, 379 had wrestling (Divisions I, II and III created in 1973)
1981-82: 753 NCAA Member institutions, 363 had wrestling (DI: 276 Members, 146 had wrestling)
1986-87: 792 NCAA Member institutions, 300 had wrestling (DI: 291 Members, 124 had wrestling)
1991-92: 847 NCAA Member institutions, 275 had wrestling (DI: 298 Members, 110 had wrestling)
1996-97: 994 NCAA Member institutions, 248 had wrestling (DI: 307 Members, 97 had wrestling)
2001-02: 1036 NCAA Member institutions, 231 had wrestling (DI: 324 Members, 87 had wrestling)
2006-07: 1062 NCAA Member institutions, 228 had wrestling (DI: 327 Members, 88 had wrestling)
2011-12: 1096 NCAA Member institutions, 219 had wrestling (DI: 340 Members, 77 had wrestling)

Note: The NCAA created 3 divisions in 1973. The info above is a summation of all D1, D2, and D3 programs, even after the split, with the right side (in parentheses) showing the DI-only portion.

Today's wrestlers are more talented and better prepared for college than at any time in history. Still, it's all relative, and the wrestlers of yesteryear were competing in the same climate as others of their day. It is a complicating factor when discussing "all-time great teams".

One thing that has changed is something I'll call TALENT COMPRESSION. Just looking at DI only, with 146 teams in 1982, and only 77 today, it's a huge change. I know y'all will spin that several different ways...have at it!!

 

[jammenz]

Winning margin of victory ignores several relevant factors. Should not the quality of a team's dual season be factored in? And how about the quality of competition they faced? Winning a title against Joe Fish may boost a team's margin of victory (which is what you think is so important), but it pales in comparison to the wrestler who loses a close bout against one of the sports all-time greats.

For instance the 1965 Cyclones (1,1,3,3,3,3,4,5) edged Okie St (1,4,1,4,2,1,2) by just one point. Of course the margin of victory may have been greater if they didn't have to contend with the likes of Caruso, Behm, Fehrs, Hicks, Nance, etc in their brackets.

It is also interesting to note that two sources have now listed the 2001 Gophers in their top team list: The NCAA and TheOpenMat.

 

[dicemen99]

Winning margin of victory ignores several relevant factors. Should not the quality of a team's dual season be factored in? And how about the quality of competition they faced? Winning a title against Joe Fish may boost a team's margin of victory (which is what you think is so important), but it pales in comparison to the wrestler who loses a close bout against one of the sports all-time greats.

For instance the 1965 Cyclones (1,1,3,3,3,3,4,5) edged Okie St (1,4,1,4,2,1,2) by just one point. Of course the margin of victory may have been greater if they didn't have to contend with the likes of Caruso, Behm, Fehrs, Hicks, Nance, etc in their brackets.

It is also interesting to note that two sources have now listed the 2001 Gophers in their top team list: The NCAA and TheOpenMat.

I would agree with jammies here - winning margin of victory would be one of several factors I would include, but should not be the sole one. Good example made with the 65' Iowa State team. I also think that the team's overall season - which would include duals and other tournaments - should be relevant. The fact that the 2012 PSU team lost a dual meet should exclude them from the discussion of greatest teams of all time IMO.

I also would have put 2001 Minny at #5 because of the 10 AAs, but they also lost a dual meet. They got spanked at home by OK State 25-12. So, I am including jammies criteria of dual season when rating my top 5 teams which will not include 2001 Minnesota or 2012 PSU.

 

[RoarLions1]

Winning margin of victory ignores several relevant factors. Should not the quality of a team's dual season be factored in? And how about the quality of competition they faced? Winning a title against Joe Fish may boost a team's margin of victory (which is what you think is so important), but it pales in comparison to the wrestler who loses a close bout against one of the sports all-time greats.

For instance the 1965 Cyclones (1,1,3,3,3,3,4,5) edged Okie St (1,4,1,4,2,1,2) by just one point. Of course the margin of victory may have been greater if they didn't have to contend with the likes of Caruso, Behm, Fehrs, Hicks, Nance, etc in their brackets.

It is also interesting to note that two sources have now listed the 2001 Gophers in their top team list: The NCAA and TheOpenMat.

I agree with him too, dice, it's only one factor. Since jammenz brought up 1965, thought I'd share more info. Must sort the Placements in order to show comparison with the 2001 Minny team that went 3, 8, 8, 6, 4, 4, 4, 5, 3, 3. In 1965, only the top-6 Placements were scored (10, 7, 5, 3, 2, 1), so scoring is apples-to-oranges to todays model. Still, we can look at Placements (not points).

1965 Cyclones vs Minny (Placements sorted 1-8 for comparison)
1 vs 3 (each team's highest finish)
1 vs 3 (each team's next highest finish, and on down the list)
3 vs 3
3 vs 4
3 vs 4
3 vs 4
4 vs 5
5 vs 6
?? vs 8
?? vs 8

1965 Cowboys vs Minny (Placements sorted 1-8 for comparison)
1 vs 3 (each team's highest finish)
1 vs 3 (each team's next highest finish, and on down the list)
1 vs 3
2 vs 4
2 vs 4
4 vs 4
4 vs 5
?? vs 6
?? vs 8
?? vs 8

Just showing a comparison between different scoring era's. In this context, the Cyclones and the Cowboys finished higher in 6 of the 10 weight classes. Don't have the full brackets in front of me (for Advancement and Bonus Points). By comparison, the 1986 Hawks went 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 5.

 

[El-Jefe]

So, how many more points should we give to Jason Nolf for losing a tight finals match to a 4x champ? And to Morgan McIntosh for a tight finals loss to a 3x champ and Olympian?

 

[dunkej01]

The Minny 10 AA team..... I believe this was a deal JammenX made with the devil so he would always have something to hang his hat on. The devil did him dirty in the end im afraid.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

I think the X scandal is putting him over the edge. I've built up a tolerance over the years and have been able to ignore much of what he has to say but lately that's become more difficult, especially with his use of selective facts and distortions. He's like Jammen on steroids - Jammen Lesner?

 

[jammenz]

The Minny 10 AA team..... I believe this was a deal JammenX made with the devil so he would always have something to hang his hat on. The devil did him dirty in the end im afraid.

You know that I don't believe in devils, gods, or ghosts. And who is JammenX?

 

[jammenz]

You know that I don't believe in devils, gods, or ghosts. And who is JammenX?

Oh, I get it. Should be JammenLSD.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Having a conversation with yourself and even quoting, yikes!

 

[jschrantz]

Oh, I get it. Should be JammenLSD.

Safe to assume the board punching bag is coming undone.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

You know that I don't believe in devils, gods, or ghosts. And who is JammenX?

But do you believe in jinxes? (I couldn't find a pic of the 2014 shirt)

 

[El-Jefe]

You know that I don't believe in devils, gods, or ghosts. And who is JammenX?

JammenXXX is something nobody wants to see.

 

[dunkej01]

But do you believe in jinxes? (I couldn't find a pic of the 2014 shirt)

That pic was taken 3 phones ago. CP sent it over twitter so maybe someone can find it.

 

[El-Jefe]

 

[dunkej01]

Your the best!!!