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Heavyweight question...

NittanyChris

NittanyChris

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2001
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So what was the reason we did not have a backup at Heavyweight this season? No offense to Jan Johnson, he may still be fine, but you have to admit plucking an LB off the football team was a true Hail Mary. Looking at our roster we are 2, 3 and even 4 deep at some weights, so why wasn't there a backup at HWT? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
 
We graduated 3 seniors last year, and the backup 97/hvy (Cassar) isn't on the team this semester. Also, at least one Heavy, I believe Colin Campbell, transferred out of the program a year or two back.
 
...it is really quite simple - and has been hashed and rehashed for a couple of months...
...Heavyweight is the one weight where it is hard to justify having more than one scholarship invested...
...at almost any other weight there is the flexibility of someone moving up or down a class and contributing...
...bot not so at Heavyweight...
...but thas jes my opinion...
 
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androcles said:
...it is really quite simple - and has been hashed and rehashed for a couple of months...
...Heavyweight is the one weight where it is hard to justify having more than one scholarship invested...
...at almost any other weight there is the flexibility of someone moving up or down a class and contributing...
...bot not so at Heavyweight...
...but thas jes my opinion...
Click to expand...

Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment; I believe we are still the favorites to win the title this year, though it's going to be very close.
If the lack of a credible back-up at HWT, does end up costing us the title, then one could make a very reasonable argument that it's easily justifiable to have a solid back-up at HWT every year.
 
We've had numerous threads on this topic. What Burnsie said, with the slight modification that Campbell got kicked out after 1 semester.

Throw in the fact that a LOT of prospects go for football instead -- see Jan Johnson, Brandon Smith, and Ryan Monk on the PSU football roster. See also last year's #1 national heavy, Michael Johnson, at Yale -- along with over half of the top prospects at 220/285. And this year's #1 heavy (whose name I won't attempt to spell!) going to UCLA next year.

Then you look at who's left, and then apply all the other issues: available scholarships, academics, who's willing to possibly sit behind Nevills ... Plus you look at the competition and realize that there are very, very few decent heavy backups.
 
NittanyChris said:
Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment; I believe we are still the favorites to win the title this year, though it's going to be very close.
If the lack of a credible back-up at HWT, does end up costing us the title, then one could make a very reasonable argument that it's easily justifiable to have a solid back-up at HWT every year.
Click to expand...
Completely unreasonable. Which starter would we like to not have, so that we can have a backup?

And remember, you're talking about a backup who's capable of scoring significant points at nationals. A Gingrich type that is extremely rare -- offhand the only schools with that level of backup are NC State, Stanford, Lehigh, Ohio State, maybe Arizona State, maybe Oklahoma. Just having a body isn't enough, because a body doesn't get points at nationals.
 
Good information, Jefe. Thanks.

Would you say that, despite the reasons you listed, in most seasons there is a back-up HWT? Or is there often only one HWT on the team?
 
Besides the reasons stated above and elsewhere, most "strong backups" willing to sit behind Nevills for however many years would be unlikely to help much at nationals. HWT isn't a class where any team could survive as many injuries as PSU has this season.
 
I think we are going to continue to struggle to get a backup HWT capable of scoring points at nationals for some time. Especially if we have the good fortune of landing Seth Nevills in the near future.

If we want a body, we might be able to get some of those. But they make zero difference in March.
 
NittanyChris said:
So what was the reason we did not have a backup at Heavyweight this season? No offense to Jan Johnson, he may still be fine, but you have to admit plucking an LB off the football team was a true Hail Mary. Looking at our roster we are 2, 3 and even 4 deep at some weights, so why wasn't there a backup at HWT? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Click to expand...
Cael said Nick is ahead in rehab and hoping to come back in the next few weeks...Maybe middle of January which would be huge for us....
 
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El-Jefe said:
We've had numerous threads on this topic. What Burnsie said, with the slight modification that Campbell got kicked out after 1 semester.

Throw in the fact that a LOT of prospects go for football instead -- see Jan Johnson, Brandon Smith, and Ryan Monk on the PSU football roster. See also last year's #1 national heavy, Michael Johnson, at Yale -- along with over half of the top prospects at 220/285. And this year's #1 heavy (whose name I won't attempt to spell!) going to UCLA next year.

Then you look at who's left, and then apply all the other issues: available scholarships, academics, who's willing to possibly sit behind Nevills ... Plus you look at the competition and realize that there are very, very few decent heavy backups.
Click to expand...
What, you don't wanna spell Osawaru Odighizuwa? ;) AKA Double O AKA Osa 2.0
 
CSauertiegPSU said:
What, you don't wanna spell Osawaru Odighizuwa? ;) AKA Double O AKA Osa 2.0
Click to expand...
I don't think El-jefe was up for that kind of challenge at 9:23 in the evening. The anxiety level that could cause might keep him up till 3:00 in the morning.
grinning-smiley-001.gif
 
PSU-Knocker said:
I don't think El-jefe was up for that kind of challenge at 9:23 in the evening. The anxiety level that could cause might keep him up till 3:00 in the morning.
grinning-smiley-001.gif
Click to expand...
Hah! Actually too hard to copy/paste on my phone, would've done it if on my laptop.
 
I think I can boil down the true impact.

1. We have lost a few points in duals by not having a backup HWT.
2. We wouldn't win any points at Nationals with a backup heavy. Lawson/Gingrich combo just doesn't happen often. And anyway, Lawson finished in 6th place, which gets you 6 points. Could not getting that 6 points matter? Yes it could, but in the recent tourney, OSU won by 18. If you saw Nevills getting us 6, and see Johnson getting us 0, then sit back and relax.
 
spyker said:
Cael said Nick is ahead in rehab and hoping to come back in the next few weeks...Maybe middle of January which would be huge for us....
Click to expand...
Since when????

I am sure there are folks who follow things closer than I do, but I've never heard that.
 
From where I'm sitting, there has been zero comments about Nick's "coming back". The coaches comments I've heard have been extremely measured and calculated. They are not saying Nick won't return, nor are they saying he will.

My read on their comments is frankly, they don't know, and it's in the hands of respected professionals (Dan Monthly, surgeon, etc.) if, or when the decision needs to be made. The absolute worst thing is to rush any decision.
 
Last edited:
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El-Jefe said:
I think we are going to continue to struggle to get a backup HWT capable of scoring points at nationals for some time. Especially if we have the good fortune of landing Seth Nevills in the near future.

If we want a body, we might be able to get some of those. But they make zero difference in March.
Click to expand...

At the NLO I was sitting by mat #10; one of the first matches on that mat was a HWT match featuring Thomas Haines of tOSU, who went on to win the HWT crown at the NLO. No mention of Haines at all here; we mentioned Hayes and Martin from tOSU; no mention of Haines. I still wonder was there anyway PSU could have kept him on the team; could use him now.
 
Lion-around said:
I still wonder was there anyway PSU could have kept him on the team; could use him now.
Click to expand...

Perhaps there was a way that PSU could have done something. However, keep in mind that it was Haines that elected to go elsewhere. PSU encouraged him to keep his verbal, and be a part of PSU's team.

I think part of the issue was that Haines verballed before it was legal for PSU to make him an offer. They had Haines in their pocket, so to speak, but they concluded that they liked Nevills more, and they offered him and he verballed to PSU. PSU didn't have a lot money to hand out, and I doubt they had money to give to two HS seniors that were at the same weight in the same recruiting class.

Haines (and his father) seemed rather stunned by what PSU chose to do, so they elected to look around, and ended up at Ohio State.

You never know how the future will work out.

At Ohio State, Haines redshirted as a true freshman, and got injured. As a RS fresh (currently), he could not beat Tav for the starting spot, so he's wrestling Opens. As a RS soph (next year), it looks even worse for Haines. Snyder has already said that when he returns from his Olympic RS that he will move from 197 (what he wrestled in college last year) to 285. I don't think anyone believes that Haines can beat Snyder.

At PSU, Haines would have redshirted as a true freshman (with LawDog and Gingrich battling for the spot last year). As a RS fresh, he would have been the starter due to Nevills injury. As a RS soph (next year), Haines and Nevills would have battled it out to start.
 
I'm
Tom McAndrew said:
Perhaps there was a way that PSU could have done something. However, keep in mind that it was Haines that elected to go elsewhere. PSU encouraged him to keep his verbal, and be a part of PSU's team.

I think part of the issue was that Haines verballed before it was legal for PSU to make him an offer. They had Haines in their pocket, so to speak, but they concluded that they liked Nevills more, and they offered him and he verballed to PSU. PSU didn't have a lot money to hand out, and I doubt they had money to give to two HS seniors that were in the same recruiting class.

Haines (and his father) seemed rather stunned by what PSU chose to do, so they elected to look around, and ended up at Ohio State.

You never know how the future will work out.

At Ohio State, Haines redshirted as a true freshman, and got injured. As a RS fresh (currently), he could not beat Tav for the starting spot, so he's wrestling Opens. As a RS soph (next year), it looks even worse for Haines. Snyder has already said that when he returns from his Olympic RS that he will move from 197 (what he wrestled in college last year) to 285. I don't think anyone believes that Haines can beat Snyder.

At PSU, Haines would have redshirted as a true freshman (with LawDog and Gingrich battling for the spot last year). As a RS fresh, he would have been the starter due to Nevills injury. As a RS soph (next year), Haines and Nevills would have battled it out to start.
Click to expand...
I'm
fine with not giving significant money to a backup HWT and I'm pretty sure he's getting good money for OSU. Also, I have a hunch we may not see Snyder in an OSU singlet again
 
Lion-around said:
At the NLO I was sitting by mat #10; one of the first matches on that mat was a HWT match featuring Thomas Haines of tOSU, who went on to win the HWT crown at the NLO. No mention of Haines at all here; we mentioned Hayes and Martin from tOSU; no mention of Haines. I still wonder was there anyway PSU could have kept him on the team; could use him now.
Click to expand...
Maybe that year Cael could've turned away Nolf or Nickal in order to have both heavies ...

Seriously, the answer is no. I would bet that no school in the 9.9 scholarship era has ever signed the #1 and #2 HWT prospects in the same year, for some pretty obvious reasons.
 
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El-Jefe said:
Maybe that year Cael could've turned away Nolf or Nickal in order to have both heavies ...

Seriously, the answer is no. I would bet that no school in the 9.9 scholarship era has ever signed the #1 and #2 HWT prospects in the same year, for some pretty obvious reasons.
Click to expand...


Your forgetting about the black and gold conspiracy that there is a HUGE pot of gold in the depths of Rec Hall. That if the trolls that guard this pot of gold wanted Haines we would have gotten him.

Its the intranet, so I believe what I read. Dont you guys?
 
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dunkej01 said:
Your forgetting about the black and gold conspiracy that there is a HUGE pot of gold in the depths of Rec Hall. That if the trolls that guard this pot of gold wanted Haines we would have gotten him.

Its the intranet, so I believe what I read. Dont you guys?
Click to expand...
Remember - we are envious of their program and fans.

Let me know the next time we have a long thread on a close WIN by a Hawkeye.

The funniest all-time posts were about David Taylor being a staller on top - that's trenchant analysis right there!
 
dunkej01 said:
Your forgetting about the black and gold conspiracy that there is a HUGE pot of gold in the depths of Rec Hall. That if the trolls that guard this pot of gold wanted Haines we would have gotten him.

Its the intranet, so I believe what I read. Dont you guys?
Click to expand...
Silly me, I forgot about all other trolls when Jammen last posted.

Golf clap to Fine Material, posting on HR that Zain has been stalling his way to a lot of pins this year.
 
El-Jefe said:
Silly me, I forgot about all other trolls when Jammen last posted.

Golf clap to Fine Material, posting on HR that Zain has been stalling his way to a lot of pins this year.
Click to expand...

HR Analysis Skills:

All-time great: Staller, not really that great
All-american, one of select few to beat all time great, title (at least finalist) favorite this year: Staller, pretty much cheating but refs won't call it
Two-time finalist, three top-three finishes: Staller


Guy with one career win at Nationals at a different weight: National Champ this year
Guy whose highest finish was six: Cult hero
 
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KidNittany said:
HR Analysis Skills:

All-time great: Staller, not really that great
All-american, one of select few to beat all time great, title (at least finalist) favorite this year: Staller, pretty much cheating but refs won't call it
Two-time finalist, three top-three finishes: Staller


Guy with one career win at Nationals at a different weight: National Champ this year
Guy whose highest finish was six: Cult hero
Click to expand...
Hand fighting and snarling for 6 out of 7 minutes = clearly not stalling
 
KidNittany said:
HR Analysis Skills:

All-time great: Staller, not really that great
All-american, one of select few to beat all time great, title (at least finalist) favorite this year: Staller, pretty much cheating but refs won't call it
Two-time finalist, three top-three finishes: Staller


Guy with one career win at Nationals at a different weight: National Champ this year
Guy whose highest finish was six: Cult hero
Click to expand...
Mike Evans is not impressed with your synopsis.
 
NittanyChris said:
Good information, Jefe. Thanks.

Would you say that, despite the reasons you listed, in most seasons there is a back-up HWT? Or is there often only one HWT on the team?
Click to expand...
Year-----# of hvy listed
2008/09-4
2009/10-2
2010/11-2
2011/12-2
2012/13-2
2013/14-3
2014/15-1? This roster is screwed up with Gingrich and Lawson missing, surprising since you have one of the top sites for records/stats.
 
El-Jefe said:
Maybe that year Cael could've turned away Nolf or Nickal in order to have both heavies ...

Seriously, the answer is no. I would bet that no school in the 9.9 scholarship era has ever signed the #1 and #2 HWT prospects in the same year, for some pretty obvious reasons.
Click to expand...


Or he could have simply kept Haines and not offered Nevils.
 
PSU-Knocker said:
.....and Haines not.
Click to expand...
Except Haines did get hurt, lost all of last year with a shoulder injury. Lost a year of development. Has been unable to beat Tavanello, and he has not exactly been lights-out against an uninspiring schedule so far ... including getting pinned by a lower-division wrestler at the MSU Open.
http://s400.trackwrestling.com/tw/s...6&twSessionId=iugiehoshcstvwg&teamId=28215107

I still like him long term, and maybe he'll get there this year, but he isn't there yet. And it's due to injury.
 
El-Jefe said:
Except Haines did get hurt, lost all of last year with a shoulder injury. Lost a year of development. Has been unable to beat Tavanello, and he has not exactly been lights-out against an uninspiring schedule so far ... including getting pinned by a lower-division wrestler at the MSU Open.
http://s400.trackwrestling.com/tw/s...6&twSessionId=iugiehoshcstvwg&teamId=28215107

I still like him long term, and maybe he'll get there this year, but he isn't there yet. And it's due to injury.
Click to expand...

Or it was the curse that the trolls put on him following the families rejection of the offer.....black magic at work kind of thing. Again, if it doesn't make sense just make something up and pass it off as fact. Seems to work for other boards.
 
dunkej01 said:
Or it was the curse that the trolls put on him following the families rejection of the offer.....black magic at work kind of thing. Again, if it doesn't make sense just make something up and pass it off as fact. Seems to work for other boards.
Click to expand...
With that kind of scratch, he could've had his West Halls dorm room outfitted with a custom-built tanning bed.
 
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