Historical examples of overcoming a defensive wrestling style?

[Dogwelder]

I would love some education about wrestling history.

What are some examples of an aggressive wrestler who gets stymied by a defensive wrestler and then (eventually) figures out how to overcome that wrestler?

The reason I ask is that, if I had to prepare to face a high-energy wrestler like Nolf, I'd look to see what Delgado, Dake, Martinez, et al. did. But if I (or Nolf) had to prepare to face a defensive wrestler like Delgado, to whose example would I look? (I know Mega and Taylor and Nolf already have overcome tons of defensive wrestlers, and are already experts, but I'm looking for examples in which someone at first is *losing* to a specific defensive wrestler, and then figures out how to win against that same defensive wrestler.)

 

[Dogwelder]

Okay. I remember one example. Mega did come back and beat Delgado the next year, in the regular season. How did he do it? Did he change his approach? Is there any lesson to be drawn from that success?

 

[moug]

Okay. I remember one example. Mega did come back and beat Delgado the next year, in the regular season. How did he do it? Did he change his approach? Is there any lesson to be drawn from that success?

I believe he stacked Delgado in a scramble situation IIRC

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I would love some education about wrestling history.

What are some examples of an aggressive wrestler who gets stymied by a defensive wrestler and then (eventually) figures out how to overcome that wrestler?

The reason I ask is that, if I had to prepare to face a high-energy wrestler like Nolf, I'd look to see what Delgado, Dake, Martinez, et al. did. But if I (or Nolf) had to prepare to face a defensive wrestler like Delgado, to whose example would I look? (I know Mega and Taylor and Nolf already have overcome tons of defensive wrestlers, and are already experts, but I'm looking for examples in which someone at first is *losing* to a specific defensive wrestler, and then figures out how to win against that same defensive wrestler.)

Well, the Numero Uno thing that is supposed to help an aggressive wrestler that is carrying 100% of the "attacks" of the match (and the other wrestler is wrestling 100% defensive and only looking to burn clock or counter, if anything) is THE OFFICIAL!!! The OFFICIAL is supposed to make sure that both wrestler's are WRESTLING AND ARE ATTEMPTING TO IMPROVE THEIR POSITION TOWARD SCORING AT ALL TIMES - if it becomes clear to the OFFICIAL that one wrestler is not carrying the burden of any of the offensive attacks, the OFFICIAL is supposed to verbally warn the offending wrestler of passivity and pending stall calls if he does not pick up his attacks to where they will match his opponents (e.g., 50% of the attacks). In this way, the attacking wrestler is rewarded for continuing his attacks, keeping his opponent on the defensive and THEREBY DRAWING STALL CALLS on his opponent.

In the case of this past weekend's B1G Tournament, the OFFICIATING was beyond abysmal in regards to PENALIZING AGGRESSIVENESS and REWARDING PASSIVITY - especially in regards to the all important 1st Period when the tone and tenor of the match is set not only by the wrestlers, but by the OFFICIAL AS WELL. Not once was a PSU wrestler rewarded for carrying 100% of the offensive attacks and shots from neutral during the 1st Period and throughout the remainder of the match in the finals -- this is DEFACTO rewarding the exact strategy of the "Passive" defense- / counter-only wrestler......again the DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE of how the ACTUAL WRESTLING RULES say the official was supposed to "call" the match at this weekend's b1g shiz-hole Tournament. Not only that, but the b1g Shiz-hole then promotes the bull$hit, violation of the rules, strategy as "outstanding wrestling" in naming I-Mar "Outstanding Wrestler" of the b1g Shiz-hole Tournament - go figure!

But to answer your question, there is very little a wrestler can do to force an opponent to ACTUALLY WRESTLE or face penalty as stipulated by the rulebook if the OFFICIAL makes it abundantly clear they aren't going to enforce one of the most FUNDAMENTAL RULES within the wrestling rulebook - REWARD THE ACTIVE AGGRESSIVE WRESTLER AND PENALIZE THE PASSIVE WRESTLER. By doing the diametric opposite of the RULEBOOK and allowing one wrestler to be exclusively passive offensively and pursue a defense- / counter-only strategy, the OFFICIAL is effectively REWARDING PASSIVITY in contravention of true wrestling rules and thwarting the active aggressive wrestler from winning the match by ACTUALLY WRESTLING AND SCORING! Again, there is very little a wrestler can do in regards to corrupt, bull$hit OFFICIATING that permits an awesome "defensive wrestler" (to use your parlance) to break the ACTUAL RULES OF WRESTLING with impunity. Your characterization of I-Mar without knowing the rules says everything about the "style" I-Mar used in the b1g Shiz-hole Tournament because being a "defensive wrestler" is a violation of wrestling's fundamental and long-standing "passivity rules" and is SUPPOSED TO BE PUNISHED VIA PENALTY, not rewarded via zero penalty calls, by the official -- the fact that you would describe I-Mar's style the way you did having no deep knowledge of wrestling or wrestling rules says everything my friend, love it!

 

[El-Jefe]

Jimmy Gulibon finally beat Mason Beckman at nationals last year.

I don't recall specifics, would have to rely on others to describe how he overcame Beckman.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Great question, I will be watching as well to see if some of our in house experts can remember a few good examples.

The only thing needed is a competent official who will enforce the "actual rules of wrestling" as being exclusively a "defensive wrestler" looking to "shorten the match" and nullify the most important period (the 1st Period via inactivity and BS tactics) is not permitted under the true rules of wrestling and such tactics are supposed to be penalized for "passivity". If an official is not going to do his job and require both wrestlers to actually wrestle or face passivity penalties, there is very little the "active, aggressive wrestler" can do - the OFFICIAL is supposed to reward the active, aggressive wrestler by penalizing the passive, defense- / counter-only wrestler, but the more active wrestler has no way of making the OFFICIAL actually do his job and enforce the passivity rules.

 

[El-Jefe]

I think we all get it and agree that the stalling rules need to be strictly enforced, but that is currently, not the world we are all having to live in.

Speaking of stalling being enforced ...

2013 Scuffle: Nelson 4-1
2014 Scuffle: Nelson 1-0
2014 national final: Gwiazdowski 4-2

Gwiz had improved, but the biggest difference was that he kept coming and coming and coming until the ref had no choice but to ding Nelson for the Stall Ride of Doom. And then Gwiz kept coming on feet.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Speaking of stalling being enforced ...

2013 Scuffle: Nelson 4-1
2014 Scuffle: Nelson 1-0
2014 national final: Gwiazdowski 4-2

Gwiz had improved, but the biggest difference was that he kept coming and coming and coming until the ref had no choice but to ding Nelson for the Stall Ride of Doom. And then Gwiz kept coming on feet.

Precisely! The Official is supposed to REWARD the aggressor in this situation - it is IN FACT the aggressor's continuous pressure (e.g., "chain wrestling") that is not allowing his opponent to do anything but play defense and look to counter, if anything. To the extent that the aggressor can keep up this level of intense pressure, the official is SUPPOSED TO continue to REWARD IT with additional calls against the wrestler being FORCED INTO PASSIVITY by the other wrestlers superior SKILL and AGGRESSION. If the NCAA were smart, they would go to the 3-Point TD off your own offensive move, eliminate the "Stall Warning" (let official use verbal instructions to "warn" the offender of pending calls) go directly to points and use Freestyle's "three strikes and your out" passivity rules (e.g., DQ after 3rd Stall Call).

 

[ptomaselli]

It seems like IMar successfully employed the leg grab technique perfected by Delgado against Nico a few years ago. Yes, another Illini wrestler from California. Coincidence? I think not.

I wonder what Nolf can do? Hopefully Cael and Casey are working on something back in the lab because yeah, the officiating isn't going to change in 2 weeks time.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Precisely! The Official is supposed to REWARD the aggressor in this situation - it is IN FACT the aggressor's continuous pressure (e.g., "chain wrestling") that is not allowing his opponent to do anything but play defense and look to counter, if anything. To the extent that the aggressor can keep up this level of intense pressure, the official is SUPPOSED TO continue to REWARD IT with additional calls against the wrestler being FORCED INTO PASSIVITY by the other wrestlers superior SKILL and AGGRESSION. If the NCAA were smart, they would go to the 3-Point TD off your own offensive move, eliminate the "Stall Warning" (let official use verbal instructions to "warn" the offender of pending calls) go directly to points and use Freestyle's "three strikes and your out" passivity rules (e.g., DQ after 3rd Stall Call).

In other words, let offending wrestlers know that you are serious about the rulebook and passivity rules! Over half the finalists in this weekend's b1g shiz-hole tournament would have been DQ'ed if they attempted to wrestle that passively through an entire Freestyle match!!! What does that tell you about the way the b1g shiz-hole and NCAA allow their tournaments to be called (or the b1g shiz-hole bestowing the "Outstanding Wrestler Award" for the entire tournament on I-Mar? )???

 

[ev_flores0331]

How is a whizzer better than diving for the far leg? You can't do much to improve your position when you throw in a whizzer. At least when you go for the far leg you have a shot at improving your position after a scramble, right?

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

How is a whizzer better than diving for the far leg? You can't do much to improve your position when you throw in a whizzer. At least when you go for the far leg you have a shot at improving your position after a scramble, right?

disagree with that.....if your wizzer breaks his grip on your leg, you have the superior position and your whizzer arm-bar can lead to multiple different combos resulting in a pacake position. Pretty much impossible to do anything with a reach over ankle grab if you don't break your opponent's hand-lock on your leg....best you can hope for is a stalemate.

 

[a_mshaffer]

style...
even our guys grab an ankle to prevent giving up points...
the ref's assume intent on stalling, unfortunately, that is why it happens so often in the later stages of the match against the wrestler winning at the time...

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

In other words, let offending wrestlers know that you are serious about the rulebook and passivity rules! Over half the finalists in this weekend's b1g shiz-hole tournament would have been DQ'ed if they attempted to wrestle that passively through an entire Freestyle match!!! What does that tell you about the way the b1g shiz-hole and NCAA allow their tournaments to be called (or the b1g shiz-hole bestowing the "Outstanding Wrestler Award" for the entire tournament on I-Mar? )???

Go watch the Spencer Lee video interview that is posted - was cracking up when he was talking about not looking forward to State's and a Folkstyle tournament because his opponent's simply turtle-up and it takes him "forever to get enough points to Tech Fall"....he then contrasted that to taking out world-class wrestlers in 40 seconds at World Jr's in Olympic Freestyle and then says TIC something along the lines of: "something tells me these Iranian guys I beat in 40 seconds at World's might be better wresters and able to beat these highschool folkstyle guys".... Didn't say it in a jerky way at all, but it was really pretty funny and amusing the way he said it and set it up. Sounded "about right" for a top freestyler in Pennsy and a lot like the guys I grew up wrestling with in Erie (and btw, Spencer's family is originally from Saegertown which is basically in the Erie area -- it's out just past Edinboro.).

 

[Stargellfan]

I would love some education about wrestling history.

What are some examples of an aggressive wrestler who gets stymied by a defensive wrestler and then (eventually) figures out how to overcome that wrestler?

The reason I ask is that, if I had to prepare to face a high-energy wrestler like Nolf, I'd look to see what Delgado, Dake, Martinez, et al. did. But if I (or Nolf) had to prepare to face a defensive wrestler like Delgado, to whose example would I look? (I know Mega and Taylor and Nolf already have overcome tons of defensive wrestlers, and are already experts, but I'm looking for examples in which someone at first is *losing* to a specific defensive wrestler, and then figures out how to win against that same defensive wrestler.)

To judge by the comments from Iowa fans, Megaludis is the biggest staller in the history of wrestling. I know that Nico is usually involved in tight low scoring affairs with the better wrestlers, but the way he is beat up on their board is laughable. In both matches he lost against the kid from OSU, the deciding takedown was a counter to a Megaludis shot. In the vast majority of Mega's matches he is very aggressive. He is more conservative against the really good kids,but who isn't?

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

To judge by the comments from Iowa fans, Megaludis is the biggest staller in the history of wrestling. I know that Nico is usually involved in tight low scoring affairs with the better wrestlers, but the way he is beat up on their board is laughable. In both matches he lost against the kid from OSU, the deciding takedown was a counter to a Megaludis shot. In the vast majority of Mega's matches he is very aggressive. He is more conservative against the really good kids,but who isn't?

Very absurd given that Mega has been the most active of the "elite wrestlers" @25 every year including this year. Comical for Iowa fans to be critical of Mega given that Mega was more active and the aggressor in his match against Gillman (ditto NaTo). How precisely could Nico get tons of shots off when Gilman was locking onto his head, doing nothing and refusing to let go??? Fans of Gilman accusing Nico of stalling, defense-only, shorten the match wrestling??? Priceless!!! Ditto NaTo in his match with Nico. Go back and take a look at the film - who was constantly moving forward in the matches? Nico, that's who. Nico was so persistently moving forward that Gilman and NaTo would immediately go into a head tie-up to slow NIco's forward progress down -- eventually, they would go OB or Official would call a stalemate at the edge to bring the action back to the center AND NICO would immediately move forward, Gilman/NaTo would back-up and eventually go back into a head clinch. You have to know absolutely nothing about wrestling to claim that Mega was the more "passive" defense-oriented wrestler in either of those matches - Gillman or NaTo!

 

[21Guns]

Ironically, Mark Perry beating Johnny Hendricks is an example. Perry was able to turn him somehow and get the points to win. You beat stallers on the mat, by scoring in unorthodox ways. You can't beat stallers by chasing them.

The irony of course is that Perry teaches stalling at Illinois, both by his wrestlers, and by waving phony red flags to give his wrestlers cheap lunger timeouts.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Gillman had the match won when he had Meg's one leg and had it high up in the air and had Mega hopping around but he had a brain fart got in a hurry and did not finish it match should have never gone overtiome.

I wish they would go back to the old days. After 2 minutes in first period if no score ref needs to warn one or both wrestlers for stalling make them wrestle today they allow to much hand fighting just my opinion. I know it has to hard for Mr. Allen who is in charge of big tens refs because when he was reffing no way did he allow this stalling bull shit. Just my opinion, and all teams have stallers lets be reaL OK .

 

[21Guns]

Gillman had the match won when he had Meg's one leg and had it high up in the air and had Mega hopping around but he had a brain fart got in a hurry and did not finish it match should have never gone overtiome.

I wish they would go back to the old days. After 2 minutes in first period if no score ref needs to warn one or both wrestlers for stalling make them wrestle today they allow to much hand fighting just my opinion. I know it has to hard for Mr. Allen who is in charge of big tens refs because when he was reffing no way did he allow this stalling bull shit. Just my opinion, and all teams have stallers lets be reaL OK .

You need to get over Gilman's loss to Nico: Gilman won't see Nico ever again unless he beats NaTo in the semi's. That needs to be your focus.

 

[NittanyLion84]

Gillman had the match won when he had Meg's one leg and had it high up in the air and had Mega hopping around but he had a brain fart got in a hurry and did not finish it match should have never gone overtiome.

I wish they would go back to the old days. After 2 minutes in first period if no score ref needs to warn one or both wrestlers for stalling make them wrestle today they allow to much hand fighting just my opinion. I know it has to hard for Mr. Allen who is in charge of big tens refs because when he was reffing no way did he allow this stalling bull shit. Just my opinion, and all teams have stallers lets be reaL OK .

Agreed, every team has wrestlers that are defensive and hesitant in employing their offense. PSU included, the problem I have are the coaches that teach this type of strategic wrestling, to save a few bonus points in a dual. The thing I like about Cael is he and his staff do not. Over the last few years PSU may have had a few wrestlers that were hesitant with their offense, for whatever reason, but they did not get that approach from Cael. My exhibit A would be Jan Johnson. Did he have a prayer of beating Snyder - No, but did he go out there and role up in a ball to save a few team points - No, in the third period he was still taking shots.

 

[minnhawkeye]

You need to get over Gilman's loss to Nico: Gilman won't see Nico ever again unless he beats NaTo in the semi's. That needs to be your focus.

Well I really believe Gillman has a better chance of beating NaTo than Nico. He has never beaten Nico but has beaten NaTo twice in folk style and also free style. I'm over the Nico just stated the fact Gilliman had the leg and should have finished it is his own fault he lost that match

Edit. You need to worry if Nico can win it all or be a bridesmaid again.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Agreed, every team has wrestlers that are defensive and hesitant in employing their offense. PSU included, the problem I have are the coaches that teach this type of strategic wrestling, to save a few bonus points in a dual. The thing I like about Cael is he and his staff do not. Over the last few years PSU may have had a few wrestlers that were hesitant with their offense, for whatever reason, but they did not get that approach from Cael. My exhibit A would be Jan Johnson. Did he have a prayer of beating Snyder - No, but did he go out there and role up in a ball to save a few team points - No, in the third period he was still taking shots.

Would say that Geno is our most "defensive oriented" wrestler, but his offense has definitely picked up -- sometimes he waits too long, but his neutral offense has gotten better. I think he has to "commit" himself to going all out from the opening whistle at NCAA's. He's got a good motor and reminds me a bit of JC earlier in his career - a little bulldog, but could become a tough out if he just improved his neutral offense, especially early, a little bit.

 

[21Guns]

Well I really believe Gillman has a better chance of beating NaTo than Nico. He has never beaten Nico but has beaten NaTo twice in folk style and also free style. I'm over the Nico just stated the fact Gilliman had the leg and should have finished it is his own fault he lost that match

Edit. You need to worry if Nico can win it all or be a bridesmaid again.

No, I don't need to worry about it. The job is to take it one match at a time and get to the semi's, then take out Dance, which we have done before. The finals are the finals, and losing two times in the finals is more than ok, especially when one of them came to McDonough, who AT THE TIME was the premier 125 pounder in the nation, and the other to Delgado, when he was grabbing ankles and getting away with it.

 

[grappler6]

Speaking of stalling being enforced ...

2013 Scuffle: Nelson 4-1
2014 Scuffle: Nelson 1-0
2014 national final: Gwiazdowski 4-2

Gwiz had improved, but the biggest difference was that he kept coming and coming and coming until the ref had no choice but to ding Nelson for the Stall Ride of Doom. And then Gwiz kept coming on feet.

I think Nelson hurting his ankle and having to give up choice after injury time effected that match much more than a stall call.

 

[psuflyguy]

Who's the last Iowa wrestler to finish his first three years in the top three, ala Nico? I'd also like to know the last Iowa wrestler to finish with as many career takedowns as Nico will have.

 

[21Guns]

I think Nelson hurting his ankle and having to give up choice after injury time effected that match much more than a stall call.

You mean you think Nelson "hurting his ankle" and having to give up choice after injury time, don't you?

 

[NoVa Lion]

Who's the last Iowa wrestler to finish his first three years in the top three, ala Nico? I'd also like to know the last Iowa wrestler to finish with as many career takedowns as Nico will have.

McDonough would answer BOTH of your questions.

 

[psuflyguy]

McDonough would answer BOTH of your questions.

I suspected it would be him. My only point was that no wrestler in the black and gold program currently is as accomplished or as active as Nico. I respect the Heck out of Iowa's legacy, but their current fans ripping on Nico as a staller is laughable.
McDonough was one of my favorite, or at least most respected Iowa wrestlers. I hated to see how his final year went. My favorite all time, Lincoln McIlravy. That was a hammer if ever there was one!

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I suspected it would be him. My only point was that no wrestler in the black and gold program currently is as accomplished or as active as Nico. I respect the Heck out of Iowa's legacy, but their current fans ripping on Nico as a staller is laughable.
McDonough was one of my favorite, or at least most respected Iowa wrestlers. I hated to see how his final year went. My favorite all time, Lincoln McIlravy. That was a hammer if ever there was one!

Agree with you, there are legit criticisms of Nico's style that may keep him from attaining his International & Olympic dreams - overall lack of power most notably - but not being active enough or being too passive is certainly not among them especially regarding attacks from neutral. What is most amusing is the fact that Mega has been the least "counter" or "defensive" oriented of the elite wrestlers at his weight in each of the last several years including this year.

 

[grappler6]

You mean you think Nelson "hurting his ankle" and having to give up choice after injury time, don't you?

Haha cuz faking an injury in that moment clearly played to his benefit.

 

[21Guns]

Haha cuz faking an injury in that moment clearly played to his benefit.

Sure as hell did....He was not getting out, and was headed to overtime with an empty gas tank. Fake the injury, hope Gwiz takes down, ride him out and win. Even with a neutral start, there was no way Nelson thought Gwiz had another single leg in him, much less the one Gwiz hit to win it.

 

[grappler6]

Sure as hell did....He was not getting out, and was headed to overtime with an empty gas tank. Fake the injury, hope Gwiz takes down, ride him out and win. Even with a neutral start, there was no way Nelson thought Gwiz had another single leg in him, much less the one Gwiz hit to win it.

you know little

 

[21Guns]

you know little

That's all you got? I just laid it out for you as it happened, and by the way I was THERE.

And you run out "You know little".

You lose: Make an argument or get off the thread.

 

[RoarLions1]

Listening to the few Iowa fans busting on Nico and having any reaction at all is a waste of time. No different than if the shoe is on the other foot. The kid's records speak for themselves.

 

[ev_flores0331]

The guys at Flowrestling must be following this thread, LOL

Here's a clip of Nolf diving for Edwin Cooper's ankle and coming out with the takedown

http://www.flowrestling.org/video/935482-dirty-flo-scramble-nolf-knows-funk

 

[grappler6]

That's all you got? I just laid it out for you as it happened, and by the way I was THERE.

And you run out "You know little".

You lose: Make an argument or get off the thread.

I was also there. Sitting 1 row behind Todd (Tony's dad) and 4 seats to his left. I was also talking with Tony, his family, Rich the trainer and coaches later that evening. Make whatever theory that helps you sleep. No need to make an argument against a completely false claim. I will again contest that you know little.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Sure as hell did....He was not getting out, and was headed to overtime with an empty gas tank. Fake the injury, hope Gwiz takes down, ride him out and win. Even with a neutral start, there was no way Nelson thought Gwiz had another single leg in him, much less the one Gwiz hit to win it.

Not true. Gwiz was up 2-1 and Nelson had riding time so even if Gwiz took down Nelson riding him out sends it to OT. It does NOT as you stated win the match for Nelson. Instead Gwiz took neutral and scored the winning takedown in the 3rd period. Basically you changed the facts to fit your conclusion.

 

[grappler6]

Not true. Gwiz was up 2-1 and Nelson had riding time so even if Gwiz took down Nelson riding him out sends it to OT. It does NOT as you stated win the match for Nelson. Instead Gwiz took neutral and scored the winning takedown in the 3rd period. Basically you changed the facts to fit your conclusion.

But he was THERE!

Haha

 

[Roar More]

Not true. Gwiz was up 2-1 and Nelson had riding time so even if Gwiz took down Nelson riding him out sends it to OT. It does NOT as you stated win the match for Nelson. Instead Gwiz took neutral and scored the winning takedown in the 3rd period. Basically you changed the facts to fit your conclusion.

Your first sentence makes no sense to me. If the score is basically tied and Gwiz takes Nelson down and rides him out, that sounds like a 4-2 or 4-1 Gwiz win,not OT.

 

[SpikingWhamos]

Your first sentence makes no sense to me. If the score is basically tied and Gwiz takes Nelson down and rides him out, that sounds like a 4-2 or 4-1 Gwiz win,not OT.

"Gwiz was up 2-1 and Nelson had riding time so even if [Gwiz chooses down after the injury timeout], Nelson riding him out sends it to OT"