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Hot Take

Should Fargo go back to vertical pairing?


  • Total voters
    25

CropDuster507

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2015
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This might be in the wrong time, but this has been kicking around in my head all day. Willie may be the Greatest Mind in Wrestling, but I'd humbly say that I'm the Greatest Mind in Wrestling Not Being Paid To Share It.

I was looking over Super 32 entries and came to a conclusion: It's time for Fargo to go back to vertical pairing. Hear me out...

These super tournaments are based on what? Being the toughest national competitions, with exclusive rewards/privileges tied to them... Super 32 is probably the toughest Folkstyle tournament right now. There are clubs that peak for Super 32, State, and Akron/Fargo (I'll get to Akron in a bit). Super 32 has built itself to these massive brackets and crazy depth in folkstyle. Now, the heavy hitters usually get a round or 2 before things get competitive (from my biased opinion), but obviously there's landmines in every bracket. You get the whole singlet in the finals and you win a belt which is ****ing sick. I've never been, because my club doesn't start training folk that quickly, but it seems awesome. It's probably the toughest folkstyle tournament, as far as depth and strength go.

Akron. Akron is another tournament I need to get to, but I religiously watch. Schools hate you taking time off at the end of the year. Regardless, these brackets get big too, and super damn tough in FS/GR. Now, here's more fire within the hot-take: I think you get a more concentrated strength and less filler in Regional/National FS/GR events because it takes a certain kind of wrestler to compete in late May/early June. Yes, you lose some folk-only guys, but I am of the opinion that there is less fluff on average in these types of brackets, but it also isn't quite as big as S32. The sickest part of Akron is that there's World Team spots on the line, and they do a Best of 3 in the finals. Those are probably the two things that make it stick out. S32 has depth/strength/belts... Akron has WTT/Bo3/Strength. Both tournaments are double-elimination, straight lines.

This is where I think Fargo needs to differentiate itself. Fargo has tough brackets. Fargo has huge brackets. Yes, the 1/4s, Semis, and Finals are dope. Fargo has the stage, spotlight, production, and stop signs (PS, BRING BACK THE INTERVIEWS!) But as far as competition, what sets Fargo apart? Even Flo has asserted that Akron has become the new big thing. We know who wins in separated line-bracketing tournaments. We have 2 that are bonkers. Make Fargo something a little different. It takes a different kind of kid to go through all those vertical matches. It makes every session kinda crazy because you don't know if that one match will be a finals on that side of the bracket. A kid can lose and battle back to win the damn thing. Shit is a GRINDER! That takes a different mental edge.

Maybe I'm way off, but this could be a better way to market Fargo, too. Yes, I get it, it is Fargo. It's a national pastime for me too, but setting itself different in the competitive standpoint would be a cool addition. And yes, I'm aware that it's growing well and maybe I'm fixing something that ain't broken. In fact, I know that's what I'm doing. But that's why this is a Hot Take, and that's why I'm the Greatest Mind in Wrestling Not Being Paid To Share It.
 
This might be in the wrong time, but this has been kicking around in my head all day. Willie may be the Greatest Mind in Wrestling, but I'd humbly say that I'm the Greatest Mind in Wrestling Not Being Paid To Share It.

I was looking over Super 32 entries and came to a conclusion: It's time for Fargo to go back to vertical pairing. Hear me out...

These super tournaments are based on what? Being the toughest national competitions, with exclusive rewards/privileges tied to them... Super 32 is probably the toughest Folkstyle tournament right now. There are clubs that peak for Super 32, State, and Akron/Fargo (I'll get to Akron in a bit). Super 32 has built itself to these massive brackets and crazy depth in folkstyle. Now, the heavy hitters usually get a round or 2 before things get competitive (from my biased opinion), but obviously there's landmines in every bracket. You get the whole singlet in the finals and you win a belt which is ****ing sick. I've never been, because my club doesn't start training folk that quickly, but it seems awesome. It's probably the toughest folkstyle tournament, as far as depth and strength go.

Akron. Akron is another tournament I need to get to, but I religiously watch. Schools hate you taking time off at the end of the year. Regardless, these brackets get big too, and super damn tough in FS/GR. Now, here's more fire within the hot-take: I think you get a more concentrated strength and less filler in Regional/National FS/GR events because it takes a certain kind of wrestler to compete in late May/early June. Yes, you lose some folk-only guys, but I am of the opinion that there is less fluff on average in these types of brackets, but it also isn't quite as big as S32. The sickest part of Akron is that there's World Team spots on the line, and they do a Best of 3 in the finals. Those are probably the two things that make it stick out. S32 has depth/strength/belts... Akron has WTT/Bo3/Strength. Both tournaments are double-elimination, straight lines.

This is where I think Fargo needs to differentiate itself. Fargo has tough brackets. Fargo has huge brackets. Yes, the 1/4s, Semis, and Finals are dope. Fargo has the stage, spotlight, production, and stop signs (PS, BRING BACK THE INTERVIEWS!) But as far as competition, what sets Fargo apart? Even Flo has asserted that Akron has become the new big thing. We know who wins in separated line-bracketing tournaments. We have 2 that are bonkers. Make Fargo something a little different. It takes a different kind of kid to go through all those vertical matches. It makes every session kinda crazy because you don't know if that one match will be a finals on that side of the bracket. A kid can lose and battle back to win the damn thing. Shit is a GRINDER! That takes a different mental edge.

Maybe I'm way off, but this could be a better way to market Fargo, too. Yes, I get it, it is Fargo. It's a national pastime for me too, but setting itself different in the competitive standpoint would be a cool addition. And yes, I'm aware that it's growing well and maybe I'm fixing something that ain't broken. In fact, I know that's what I'm doing. But that's why this is a Hot Take, and that's why I'm the Greatest Mind in Wrestling Not Being Paid To Share It.
Even if your idea was bonkers, which it isn't, what's important and impressive is the passion in your thoughts and consideration for the sport. Keep on brainstorming.
 
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Voted yes, just because I have no idea and you're so passionate about it.

I have no idea, and I'm a traditionalist by nature . . . but something tells me Crop wanted this.

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I voted yes because I didn’t know if the idiot was for the poll poster or taker, figured yes was the safe vote...
 
Basically, when you get down to the quarters, you're getting 7 dynamite matches between tough SOB's. Vertical pairing gives you more of those, and more chances to hit a landmine on your side of the bracket too. Some guys would wrestle a ridiculous amount of matches just to make the RR3. That's the fun of it. You don't know if it'll take 6 matches or 12 matches or 9... You just gotta show up and win. If you lose? You get to hope that guy loses and that you end up with more classification points. Techs and Falls and getting a point on the board matter.

Vertical Pairing is more fun.

Also, I got personal beef with the 3 individuals who chose incorrectly on the poll. I didn't think I could make it more obvious with my choice titles without just making them both a confirmation. As I tell some of my students/athletes: You have a right to your opinion and your ability to express it, it's just a shame that you have to be wrong at the same time.
 
Simple counter point: Should you be able to win a standard tournament with a loss? Vertical pairing is not a true double elimination. You’ve had instances where a wrestler with 2 losses makes a final. I loved the grind of vertical pairing and the options to get most of the matches we could see on a given side, but having covered Fargo in person the last 21 years ... line bracketing has made the event more viewer and media friendly and less reliant on odd pairing scenarios that few could master adequately enough to explain to someone next to you.

I loved it, but it was time for it to go away.
 
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Simple counter point: Should you be able to win a standard tournament with a loss? Vertical pairing is not a true double elimination. You’ve had instances where a wrestler with 2 losses makes a final. I loved the grind of vertical pairing and the options to get most of the matches we could see on a given side, but having covered Fargo in person the last 21 years ... line bracketing has made the event more viewer and media friendly and less reliant on odd pairing scenarios that few could master adequately enough to explain to someone next to you.

I loved it, but it was time for it to go away.

Oh, gawd. I voted and didn't even know what I was voting for. What's the best link we can use to best understand this branch of bracketology?

signed,
Yours in ignernce,
jp
 
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Oh, gawd. I voted and didn't even know what I was voting for. What's the best link we can use to best understand this branch of bracketology?

signed,
Yours in ignernce,
jp

I believe it's written on some scrolls or granite somewhere east of the Mediterranean. Not sure where exactly.
 
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This is my first year at Super 32. We brought 3 youngins out from Colorado. My son has done Tulsa, Reno Worlds, Freakshow etc. He is more nervous for this one than any of them. Should be fun!!!
 
Thanks, I'll look for them on my way to Tokyo next summer.
While JP was (probably) tongue in cheek ...

If anyone is considering going to the Olympics, airfare to Japan has been on sale for a while -- can find under $700 for one-stop flights from PHL for the Games. (Wrestling is near the end, Aug 2-8.)

That includes flights to Haneda (the airport just outside town) -- most international flights go to Narita, which is a 2-hr/$200 cab ride away.

Better yet, can also get under $700 for an open jaw flight into Osaka and out of Tokyo. Osaka is the nearest airport to the cultural capital Kyoto.

(Full disclosure: I'm not going to the Olympics, but Japan is a dream destination for my wife, so I've done a bunch of research and am watching airfare.)
 
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Simple counter point: Should you be able to win a standard tournament with a loss?
Yes definitely. Even the best guys get caught, and the vertical brackets allow that to get self corrected when the pinned gets beaten by someone else. Seems that the vertical bracket is more likely to get the best guy to the finals by correcting for flukes.
 
Yes definitely. Even the best guys get caught, and the vertical brackets allow that to get self corrected when the pinned gets beaten by someone else. Seems that the vertical bracket is more likely to get the best guy to the finals by correcting for flukes.

Nah, best guy gets caught, guess what, best guy wasn't the best guy at that moment. Vertical pairing might get the meanest or toughest guys to the finals, but not necessarily the best. There is at least one instance where a wrestler finished a tournament with THREE losses and was in 2nd place. That was enough for me. As much as I loved those killer round robins, trying to market RR1 and R8 in different weights to see who will place was unnerving as someone trying to report on the freaking tournament.

International wrestling hasn't had pools since 2004, so Fargo was a decade beyond the rest of the wrestling world in that regard. I liked it, but it's not a tournament format worth keeping.
 
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Vertical pairing might get the meanest or toughest guys to the finals, but not necessarily the best.
This argument only solidifies my stance on the subject.

All kidding aside, I'm sure it was a cluster#*$# to cover in that format, JB. I'm also sure a reason that it has grown like it has in the past couple of years is the death of vertical pairing and easier marketability. As a club coach, it is a real pain to explain VP at local opens during FS/GR season.

BUT, like any good millennial wrestling fan, I only care about what I WANT. GIVE ME VERTICAL PAIRING AT FARGO, OR GIVE ME DEATH!
 
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This argument only solidifies my stance on the subject.

All kidding aside, I'm sure it was a cluster#*$# to cover in that format, JB. I'm also sure a reason that it has grown like it has in the past couple of years is the death of vertical pairing and easier marketability. As a club coach, it is a real pain to explain VP at local opens during FS/GR season.

BUT, like any good millennial wrestling fan, I only care about what I WANT. GIVE ME VERTICAL PAIRING AT FARGO, OR GIVE ME DEATH!
Agree here. You can sell me on the marketing standpoint, but you will not convince me that line bracketing puts the right guy to the finals.

JB is basically arguing for the transitive property, which we all know doesn’t mean squat in wrestling. Just because B beat A, then C beat B, does not mean that C is better than A. We all know this to be true.
 
I’m not arguing for the transitive property, I’m pointing to a consistent format that’s been a standard in our sport for decades, save Fargo and the antiquated pool system that was abandoned internationally 15 years ago.

Maybe it’s a baseline purist “get off my lawn” mentality here, but a wrestling tournament champion should be undefeated, IMO.

But to be honest, I’m not against the format entirely, but its time has passed. I’m not going to die on this hill, but I don’t want my perspective misrepresented.

Some of the best matches I’d ever seen were those RR finals.
 
I’m not arguing for the transitive property, I’m pointing to a consistent format that’s been a standard in our sport for decades, save Fargo and the antiquated pool system that was abandoned internationally 15 years ago.

Maybe it’s a baseline purist “get off my lawn” mentality here, but a wrestling tournament champion should be undefeated, IMO.

But to be honest, I’m not against the format entirely, but its time has passed. I’m not going to die on this hill, but I don’t want my perspective misrepresented.

Some of the best matches I’d ever seen were those RR finals.
I can get with that. I don’t have a huge problem with line bracketing, but just want it to be clearly understood that vertical pairing is a better way of determining the correct finalist/better wrestler at that tournament.
 
I like it when there is a free for all, just like in the Star Wars stadium scene. :) #alsolightsabers
 
That's just like, your opinion, man.
No, it’s actually not opinion.

Let me ask you which method determines a truer champion? A single loss elimination tournament (ex:NCAA b-ball) or 3 best of 7 series (ex:NBA)? This is not an opinion that the best of 7 series results in a truer, more deserving champion.

While, the vertical pairing is not the same as a best of 7 series, it still provides a truer champion than just a single loss elimination. It controls (to an extent) for fluke losses.
 
No, it’s actually not opinion.

Let me ask you which method determines a truer champion? A single loss elimination tournament (ex:NCAA b-ball) or 3 best of 7 series (ex:NBA)? This is not an opinion that the best of 7 series results in a truer, more deserving champion.

While, the vertical pairing is not the same as a best of 7 series, it still provides a truer champion than just a single loss elimination. It controls (to an extent) for fluke losses.
Do any individual sports use Best of 7, or only team sports?
 
No, it’s actually not opinion.

Let me ask you which method determines a truer champion? A single loss elimination tournament (ex:NCAA b-ball) or 3 best of 7 series (ex:NBA)? This is not an opinion that the best of 7 series results in a truer, more deserving champion.

While, the vertical pairing is not the same as a best of 7 series, it still provides a truer champion than just a single loss elimination. It controls (to an extent) for fluke losses.
\\

YES, it is YOUR opinion. I have no problem with that, but you stating it as fact does NOT make it so, no matter what you think. Not disagreeing with your opinion, just pointing out that is just that and others think differently. Your analogy to team sports is IMHO completely faulty and irrelevant.
 
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No, it’s actually not opinion.

Let me ask you which method determines a truer champion? A single loss elimination tournament (ex:NCAA b-ball) or 3 best of 7 series (ex:NBA)? This is not an opinion that the best of 7 series results in a truer, more deserving champion.

While, the vertical pairing is not the same as a best of 7 series, it still provides a truer champion than just a single loss elimination. It controls (to an extent) for fluke losses.

So you hate upsets ... and puppies.

In all seriousness, the "truer champion" line is false justification. The very same format would allow a wrestler with losses to TWO DIFFERENT wrestlers to wrestle for a championship, placing ahead of TWO wrestlers who they lost to.

That's the giant flaw in the system. Win and keep moving on. That's sports. Wrestling needs less nuance. Again, not a hill I'm going to die on, but those are my main disagreements with vertical pairing. Wrestling needs to make things less complicated. Basketball's tournament is simple. Win and keep playing. Lose and you're done. That's sports.
 
Tennis scoring maybe? Golf has large sample sizes. Much tougher in a combat sport.
Golf you play the same guys for different times.

Tennis is a 3/5 sets.

Sorry guys, but this is not opinion. It is simple logic. The less competitions there are, the more likely it is that random chance occurrence alters the outcome. Vertical pairing lessons the impact of random chance. It is simply undeniable.
 
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