Mel Gibson making a WW2 movie about Kamikazes

[Obliviax]

looks like it hasn't started production yet so will be a couple of years. Gibson made "Hacksaw Ridge". I really liked the movie but it was overdone, in some parts. To me, this is consistent with Gibson directed movies.

The name for the movie is "Destroyer". Destroyer is based on the nonfiction book Hell From the Heavens: The Epic Story of the USS Laffey and World War II’s Greatest Kamikaze Attack by John Wukovits. Rosalind Ross, who worked on the TV series Matador and is Gibson’s longtime girlfriend, wrote the script.

 

[Nitt1300]

Gibson seems obsessed with violence, this is not a handicap when talking about this particular subject. I hope they cover the fact that there were two USS Laffeys that fought in WWII (DD459 and DD724) The first one went down fighting against overwhelming odds to save the landing force at Guadalcanal.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

How people out there still work with him is beyond me.

 

[Obliviax]

Gibson seems obsessed with violence, this is not a handicap when talking about this particular subject. I hope they cover the fact that there were two USS Laffeys that fought in WWII (DD459 and DD724) The first one went down fighting against overwhelming odds to save the landing force at Guadalcanal.

if by "violence" you mean history, then I agree.

My 13 year old daughter is being inundated with the holocaust right now in school. They watched Schindler's list, read a book (boy in the striped pajamas) and went to see a play about Anne Frank. It is alarming this is being taught to 13 year olds but, on the other hand, why not?

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Of course, 1940's were a different time and a different paradigm. What that generation went through and the sacrifices they made we can only imagine. I think movies are probably the best way. I recall listening to the bullets whistling past my head while watching Private Ryan. As an avid war movie buff, it was a new experience and, I think, took me one step closer to the realities.

Just one reporter's opinion.

 

[Nitt1300]

 

[Art]

Sounds like the movie will focus on the experience of the 724 boat during the battle of Okinawa (the 459, with the same namesake, was sunk during the Battle of Guadalcanal in 1942), which survived despite being hit by four bombs and six kamikaze strikes.

 

[Ranger Dan]

I think I read or saw something on the history channel that while the kamikazes were dangerous, they really didn't have a great deal of impact as opposed to having a well trained pilot in a well armed plane for the remainder of the war.

As an interesting tidbit, my father was stationed in Japan in the 1950's. I wasn't born yet, but was told that my family had a cleaning lady who's husband or father had been a pilot during WWII. I'll have to double check with my older sister to see what she remembers, but as I remember the story, this guy was a kamikaze pilot. Maybe that's just too many John Wayne movies growing up though.

 

[Art]

I think I read or saw something on the history channel that while the kamikazes were dangerous, they really didn't have a great deal of impact as opposed to having a well trained pilot in a well armed plane for the remainder of the war.

As an interesting tidbit, my father was stationed in Japan in the 1950's. I wasn't born yet, but was told that my family had a cleaning lady who's husband or father had been a pilot during WWII. I'll have to double check with my older sister to see what she remembers, but as I remember the story, this guy was a kamikaze pilot. Maybe that's just too many John Wayne movies growing up though.

The Japanese resorted to kamikaze tactics because, by the end of the war, they had a shortage of well-trained pilots.

 

[BobPSU92]

I think the film is going to crash and burn.

 

[Obliviax]

The Japanese resorted to kamikaze tactics because, by the end of the war, they had a shortage of well-trained pilots.

I believe that is accurate. The Japanese sent a bunch of untrained and green pilots in the Marianas. It became known as the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. That is when they really started with the Kamikaze thing. In the end, it was a simple act of desperation to save the homeland. They sunk about 60 ships but at great cost.

 

[Cletus11]

heard a quote once about Kamikazi's that i thought was pretty thought provoking.....something along the lines of, "we were fighting to live while the Japanese kamikazi pilots were fighting to die"

 

[Obliviax]

heard a quote once about Kamikazi's that i thought was pretty thought provoking.....something along the lines of, "we were fighting to live while the Japanese kamikazi pilots were fighting to die"

Its a great quote...and true. The Japanese knew, at that time, their inability to hold the islands approaching the mainland meant their cities were going to be leveled like the great cities in Europe. Yet, it was probably worse. The Japanese monarchy was considered religion. (a great reason for the separation of church and state) Hence the birth of the kamakaze due to the responsibility to defend the homeland. And this is what makes me scratch my head when people complain about the US using a nuke. Those two nukes probably saved more American AND Japanese lives and by a wide margin.

 

[aalion]

I just finished reading Neptunes Inferno but James Hornfischer which tells teh Guadalcanal story from the Navy perspective. Little known fact - more sailors than soldiers died in the battle for the island.

It is a great example of the need for air, sea, and ground support and coordination required in all of the Pacific battles. Needed all 3 to land, fight, resupply, etc. Ground forces had a priority to capture, build, protect air bases, to allow for air superiority over the ships who were needed for resupply and/or to stop the enemy ships from resupplying, etc.

 

[Lion Lineage]

Its a great quote...and true. The Japanese knew, at that time, their inability to hold the islands approaching the mainland meant their cities were going to be leveled like the great cities in Europe. Yet, it was probably worse. The Japanese monarchy was considered religion. (a great reason for the separation of church and state) Hence the birth of the kamakaze due to the responsibility to defend the homeland. And this is what makes me scratch my head when people complain about the US using a nuke. Those two nukes probably saved more American AND Japanese lives and by a wide margin.

Agreed. Although a lot of people can’t wrap their minds around that because of the use of atomic bombs. It somehow makes it more morally objectionable than say the firebombing of Dresden, a city that had no military value.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/aug/30/local/me-12456

 

[mikeinpenna]

I believe that is accurate. The Japanese sent a bunch of untrained and green pilots in the Marianas. It became known as the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot. That is when they really started with the Kamikaze thing. In the end, it was a simple act of desperation to save the homeland. They sunk about 60 ships but at great cost.

They also possessed little in the way of fuel at that point. Use less on a one-way trip...

 

[Obliviax]

Agreed. Although a lot of people can’t wrap their minds around that because of the use of atomic bombs. It somehow makes it more morally objectionable than say the firebombing of Dresden, a city that had no military value.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/aug/30/local/me-12456

Agree....The man who hired me out of college flew some of those missions as lead nav for the 100th bomb group. Being a student of war, and watching its progression, he believed that Sherman's March (civil war) was inflection point in war. Because Dresden didn't have "military value", it still had important war value. The key, like football, is to remove the opponents will to win. In that regard, leveling Dresden was to get the Germans to give up, at that point in the war. We saw this play out at the end of WW1 when so many govts were overthrown at the end.

But the point is well made....war isn't pretty and war, in the 1940's, was kill or be killed. It wasn't for the press or PR. You killed them before they killed you in any form necessary. It was just the way it was.

 

[ILLINOISLION]

if by "violence" you mean history, then I agree.

My 13 year old daughter is being inundated with the holocaust right now in school. They watched Schindler's list, read a book (boy in the striped pajamas) and went to see a play about Anne Frank. It is alarming this is being taught to 13 year olds but, on the other hand, why not?

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Of course, 1940's were a different time and a different paradigm. What that generation went through and the sacrifices they made we can only imagine. I think movies are probably the best way. I recall listening to the bullets whistling past my head while watching Private Ryan. As an avid war movie buff, it was a new experience and, I think, took me one step closer to the realities.

Just one reporter's opinion.

View embedded media

Obli - Private Ryan had the same effect on me, I actually felt like I was dodging the bullets as I watched it.

Had a similar feeling as I watched “Glory”, which I thought was a very good movie. The one battle scene as the ranks of the blue and grey lined up in the woods and fired at each other, well, you could feel the fear as the bullets hit their fellow soldiers while they almost-panically tried to reload and fire before they, too, were killed.

 

[Lyons212]

Its a great quote...and true. The Japanese knew, at that time, their inability to hold the islands approaching the mainland meant their cities were going to be leveled like the great cities in Europe. Yet, it was probably worse. The Japanese monarchy was considered religion. (a great reason for the separation of church and state) Hence the birth of the kamakaze due to the responsibility to defend the homeland. And this is what makes me scratch my head when people complain about the US using a nuke. Those two nukes probably saved more American AND Japanese lives and by a wide margin.

The two atomic bombs definitely saved many more lives than they took. The leader (Fuchida?) of the air attack on Peal Harbor agreed as well. He said Japan never would have surrendered without the atomic bombs. The Japanese people would have fought to the last, they were being armed with pikes.

 

[ILLINOISLION]

The two atomic bombs definitely saved many more lives than they took. The leader (Fuchida?) of the air attack on Peal Harbor agreed as well. He said Japan never would have surrendered without the atomic bombs. The Japanese people would have fought to the last, they were being armed with pikes.

I’ve seen figures totaling in the multi-millions if the USA had had to invade Japan. With the casualties severe on both sides.

Kudos to Truman on one of the hardest decisions any President ever had to make.

 

[19333lion]

if by "violence" you mean history, then I agree.

My 13 year old daughter is being inundated with the holocaust right now in school. They watched Schindler's list, read a book (boy in the striped pajamas) and went to see a play about Anne Frank. It is alarming this is being taught to 13 year olds but, on the other hand, why not?

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Of course, 1940's were a different time and a different paradigm. What that generation went through and the sacrifices they made we can only imagine. I think movies are probably the best way. I recall listening to the bullets whistling past my head while watching Private Ryan. As an avid war movie buff, it was a new experience and, I think, took me one step closer to the realities.

Just one reporter's opinion.

View embedded media

I think that 13 is too young for Schindler's List. However, I think it should be required viewing for all high school seniors. The text by Thomas Keneally is exceptionally well written. I've read it twice and would recommend it to anyone whether they've seen the movie or not. Speaking of not learning from history, Adolf Hitler, on the eve of the invasion of Poland, chided one of his military commanders for worrying about world opinion by stating: “Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” We cannot forget.

 

[Cletus11]

The US (and allies) would have just conventional bombed every major Japanese city to ashes which would have killed way more than two atomic bombs. Assuming the Japanese did not surrender, which every sign and historian agrees with, would have meant a land invasion of Japan which would have been devastating. I also think what is not taken into account in the land war aspect is that most of China and Southeast Asia that the Japanese had taken over were seething with revenge as Japan was brutal to them. And you don't think those countries would have done the same and worse back to Japan in a land offensive. The pillage and war atrocities would have been too many too count if a land invasion of Japan occurred.

 

[Obliviax]

Obli - Private Ryan had the same effect on me, I actually felt like I was dodging the bullets as I watched it.

Had a similar feeling as I watched “Glory”, which I thought was a very good movie. The one battle scene as the ranks of the blue and grey lined up in the woods and fired at each other, well, you could feel the fear as the bullets hit their fellow soldiers while they almost-panically tried to reload and fire before they, too, were killed.

Interesting....A challenge is to understand the paradigm. Its like trying to understand what being a fish is like. It is just totally 100% different.

For "Glory", it strikes me that the Civil War was such an inflection point. Many still wanted to fight wars like the British in the Revolutionary War. The noble way! Many adopted the American Indian way of hiding behind trees, camo and using more gorilla-like tactics. Then you had Sherman's march which was, the first that I can tell, an Army just ripping the civilian population to erode support. Other interesting points: emerging technology, flanking maneuvers, medicine....just crazy. Then, talk about the great trench wars and WW1. I mean, there was a month in WW1 when the germans perfected a way to allow their plane mounted guns to synch with the propellers (to fire between the blades) that led to a massive advantage for a month (called Bloody April, 1917) by the Germans.

I'd really have loved to taken a class on war strategy, technology and tactics over the last three centuries.

 

[Obliviax]

The US (and allies) would have just conventional bombed every major Japanese city to ashes which would have killed way more than two atomic bombs. Assuming the Japanese did not surrender, which every sign and historian agrees with, would have meant a land invasion of Japan which would have been devastating. I also think what is not taken into account in the land war aspect is that most of China and Southeast Asia that the Japanese had taken over were seething with revenge as Japan was brutal to them. And you don't think those countries would have done the same and worse back to Japan in a land offensive. The pillage and war atrocities would have been too many too count if a land invasion of Japan occurred.

totally agree. The Japanese had no idea that we had pretty much exhausted our supply of nukes. The weapon was so horrific, they thought we were going to make a parking lot of the entire country within months. So total surrender was palatable. A conventional ground war would have taken a year or probably more.

 

[Obliviax]

I think that 13 is too young for Schindler's List. However, I think it should be required viewing for all high school seniors. The text by Thomas Keneally is exceptionally well written. I've read it twice and would recommend it to anyone whether they've seen the movie or not. Speaking of not learning from history, Adolf Hitler, on the eve of the invasion of Poland, chided one of his military commanders for worrying about world opinion by stating: “Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” We cannot forget.

her assignment, tonight, is to come up with three items she can take with her if the Gestapo showed up. I guess they were allowed to take up to 20 lbs of stuff in a bag. So, at age 13, what would you take? She came up with a stuffed animal, a note pad and a blanket.

I watch this stuff on TV insatiabley...My wife laughs and asks if I going to turn on "the hitler channel" after she goes to bed.

 

[Nitt1300]

I will definitely go to see this movie. I spent three years on a destroyer, so this subject strikes close to home for me.

 

[masterbaker65]

Has a lot of potential to be a great movie.

 

[PSUcup1]

How people out there still work with him is beyond me.

because he makes great movies

Braveheart, The Passion of the Christ, Hacksaw Ridge ... all great

a movie that doesnt get talked about much but IMO was fantastic was Apocolypto .... great flick

and yes, he has had his issues, but hell, with whats going on today in Hollywood, they probably appear to be quite minor in the grand scheme of things

 

[Cletus11]

totally agree. The Japanese had no idea that we had pretty much exhausted our supply of nukes. The weapon was so horrific, they thought we were going to make a parking lot of the entire country within months. So total surrender was palatable. A conventional ground war would have taken a year or probably more.

When people say USA should not have dropped the nukes, the simple question back is "what would you have done". As most people who say that essentially don't have an answer. And if they give an answer, typically not grounded in any type of reality or historical knowledge. When you walk them through the carnage that would have occurred with conventional bombing followed by a land invasion, most start to see the light some.

 

[19333lion]

Lost in the narrative of how the atomic bombs brought the war with Japan to a conclusion, was the invasion of Japanese held Manchuria by a million or so Soviet soldiers on August 8th. The Japanese were completely outmanned, gunned, tanked and everything else. It was a complete devastation of their military capability in China and the attack went on until 8/20/1945. Formal surrender did not occur until 8/15, a full week after the Nagasaki bomb. You could always count on Joe Stalin for a little treachery.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

because he makes great movies

Braveheart, The Passion of the Christ, Hacksaw Ridge ... all great

a movie that doesnt get talked about much but IMO was fantastic was Apocolypto .... great flick

and yes, he has had his issues, but hell, with whats going on today in Hollywood, they probably appear to be quite minor in the grand scheme of things

Had his issues...interesting take there.

 

[razpsu]

How people out there still work with him is beyond me.

Great director and actor. Gibson still knows how to make movies. Hacksaw ridge, we were soldiers, etc. keep the history and movies coming.

 

[olelion]

I just finished reading Neptunes Inferno but James Hornfischer which tells teh Guadalcanal story from the Navy perspective. Little known fact - more sailors than soldiers died in the battle for the island.

It is a great example of the need for air, sea, and ground support and coordination required in all of the Pacific battles. Needed all 3 to land, fight, resupply, etc. Ground forces had a priority to capture, build, protect air bases, to allow for air superiority over the ships who were needed for resupply and/or to stop the enemy ships from resupplying, etc.

Two other books by Hornfischer are must reads for WWII buffs. "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" is about the Battle off Samar which was part of the Leyte Gulf Battle. The other is The Fleet at Flood Tide which basically covers the Pacific Naval war after the 'canal. I just finished "The Conquering Tide" by Ian W Toll which also covers the Pacific campaign from '43-'44. Another great read

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Great director and actor. Gibson still knows how to make movies. Hacksaw ridge, we were soldiers, etc. keep the history and movies coming.

Oh he's brilliant alright.


"You were hitting a woman with a child in her hands? What kind of a man is that? Breaking her teeth twice in the face! What kind of man is that?" she asks in the recording.

Gibson begins to taunt her, saying, "Oh, you're all angry now! You know what, you f---ing deserved it!"

“The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world!” the Hollywood star spouted at the time, according to the 2006 arrest report.


Yeah....I think I can throw my money elsewhere. Loved some of his old movies before I realized he was a bigot that hits women, but to each their own.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

While he's a good director, Gibson's clearly a total jerk when it comes to his personal life. How he has conducted himself personally also doesn't jive with how heavy-duty a Catholic he believes himself to be. Every one of his movies has some gratuitous scene involving religion that he puts in, just to put it in. It feels to me like he is ramming it down my throat. The scenes themselves can be subtle enough, but they don't belong there most of the time.

I could deal with it if he actually lived his life with high standards, but alas, he is mortal like the rest of us.

 

[WDLion]

Oh he's brilliant alright.


"You were hitting a woman with a child in her hands? What kind of a man is that? Breaking her teeth twice in the face! What kind of man is that?" she asks in the recording.

Gibson begins to taunt her, saying, "Oh, you're all angry now! You know what, you f---ing deserved it!"

“The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world!” the Hollywood star spouted at the time, according to the 2006 arrest report.


Yeah....I think I can throw my money elsewhere. Loved some of his old movies before I realized he was a bigot that hits women, but to each their own.

At least he can't be labeled a snowflake. That would be even worse.

 

[aalion]

Two other books by Hornfischer are must reads for WWII buffs. "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" is about the Battle off Samar which was part of the Leyte Gulf Battle. The other is The Fleet at Flood Tide which basically covers the Pacific Naval war after the 'canal. I just finished "The Conquering Tide" by Ian W Toll which also covers the Pacific campaign from '43-'44. Another great read

Thanks for the Tin Can Soldiers rec. Don't have that one. Have read the others and am waiting for the 3rd in Toll's Trilogy after Pacific Crucible and Conquering Tide. Rumored to be delivered later this year. I just followed Toll on Twitter so I don't miss its release.

 

[Nitt1300]

At least he can't be labeled a snowflake. That would be even worse.

anybody who hits a woman is a snowflake, and a pussy

 

[mcruny42]

Could the US have blockaded the mainland and essentially starved them into surrender? Not that I'm saying that's better, just thinking out loud for an option beyond nukes or land invasion? I am sure there's a very good reason why that would not have been practicable.

 

[Nitt1300]

Could the US have blockaded the mainland and essentially starved them into surrender? Not that I'm saying that's better, just thinking out loud for an option beyond nukes or land invasion? I am sure there's a very good reason why that would not have been practicable.

yes, the US had both air and sea supremacy by the end- but that would have also resulted in a terrible death toll

 

[interrobang]

Little known fact, there were Americans killed in Hiroshima

Google "Lonesome Lady" about the B-24 crew shot down and taken POW