My Mount Rushmore of all around American athletes is....
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No Jesse Owens ? It doesn't get more American than what he did in the Berlin Olympic when he put on an unbelievable show in front of Hitler
Who does he replace? Jim Thorpe excelled also in track and football and Baseball. Wilt Chamberlain excelled at track, basketball and Volleyball. Jim Brown the greatest running back and mid field Lacrosse player ever. Bo Jackson a phenomenal Football and Baseball player. Owens was great but he can't oust any of these guys in my opinion.
You need to add him as your 5th athlete. He was the American Track and Field icon simply because of the era he competed in and the BS he had to put up with.
Thorpe's Decathlon results were insane for his generation (ditto the Pentathlon). The T&F Pentathlon (5 events - believe it was 100, Javelin, long jump, high jump and discuss) was eliminated in 1924 - pretty sure Thorpe was the only athlete ever that won both. His Decathlon performances would have put him on the podium for something like 4 decades. Thorpe is without question one of the greatest athletes of all-time (arguably the GOAT).
Thorpe was also known to be the best at competitive ballroom dancing and billiards. He was the guy who could watch something and do it better than everyone the first time he tried.
I looked it up, Thorpe's Olympic Record in the Decathlon (1912) was not broken until the 1932 Olympics - and his score would have easily taken Silver by some 120 points (Thorpe's OR was broken by 49 points). They revised the scoring methodology in 1936, but based on his individual event performances, Thorpe would have made the medals platform thru 1952 or something like that. In terms of performance, his Olympic Performance was mind-boggling in that he really was not a trained Track & Field specialist like most of the European competitors he went up against (or via the record he continued to hold against athletes for 2 decades) - on the International Track & Field scene (Olympics started in 1904), Thorpe was utterly unheard of, let alone expected to do anything.
Thorpe was inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in it's inaugural "Charter Class" in 1963.
Most of the people listed in "Greatest Athlete of All-Time" do not have close to the diversified resume that Thorpe had - his Olympic Performance in the Decathlon and Pentathlon in 1912 as an utter unknown by someone who only dabbled in Track & Field on the side (while playing both Football and Baseball - primarily Football) are utterly astounding and mindboggling.
To be clear--we're pretending the best athletes all played 40+ years ago?
I don't think 4 is enough. We need a Mount Rushmore with 6 heads. I would include Jim Thorpe, Jim Brown, Wilt Chamberlain, Muhammad Ali, Michael Jordan, and Jesse Owens.
One other thing about Thorpe's 1912 Olympic Performance - he was entering his last year at Carlisle that fall. Went to Olympics more-or-less as a lark before his final season at Carlisle (Thorpe had originally entered Carlisle in 1907, but left after 1908 season. He returned for his last 2 years in 1911 and 1912 - he was recognized as an All-American in 1911 and considered the best college football player in America by pretty much everyone. He was again an All-American in 1912. Thorpe went into MLB after graduating from Carlisle playing for the NY Giants in 1913 - went into MLB because there was way more $$$ in Pro Baseball at the time as Pro Football as we know it had yet to really form. The NFL was formed in 1920 [known as American Professional Football Association before changing their name to the National Football League two years later in 1922] - Thorpe immediately went to the NFL signing a contract with the Canton Bulldogs which immediately became the most dominant team in the new league. Thorpe was recognized as the greatest football player in the world and proceeded to sign larger contracts with other NFL teams from one year to the next - Thorpe was 32 years old when he signed his first NFL Contract in 1919/1920 with Canton Bulldogs and 40 years old when signing his last NFL Contract in 1928 with the Chicago Cardinals. He played MLB from 1913 until signing his first NFL Contract with Canton - he played MLB for the NY Giants, Cincinnati Reds and Boston Braves. Even though his NFL career didn't start until he was 32 [when the league formed with sufficient $$$ to compete with MLB], he was still recognized as part of the NFL's Inagural "All Decade Team" (1920s), a member of the NFL's Inagural HOF "Charter Class" in 1963 and the NFL's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team named by NFL in 1969.).
But again, he went to the 1912 Olympics as essentially a lark prior to his last football season at Carlisle - nobody on the Olympic scene (which was primarily an International Track & Field Competition when originally founded) had ever even heard of him. He obliterated the well-known International competitors in both the Decathlon and Pentathlon and set records that would not be broken until 5 Olympics later..... without ever having trained specifically for the Olympics and occupied playing both NCAA Football in the fall and organized regional baseball leagues in summer!
Thorpe's exploits were off the charts mind-boggling and unmatched imho to this day.
Exactly…we can say they were the greatest athletes of their time, but not of all time. Thorpe’s numbers are less than what high school athletes are doing these days.
How is this not of "all time"--no one said "of their time". This is again people stuck in the past.
People do that all the time. They have a love affair with old time athletes and most of them aren’t nearly as athletic as the more modern players.
It the delta folks. How much better is a particular athlete vs the competition of the era? Are they an outlier? You can’t compare athletes era to era. Take Babe Ruth who hits 40-60 homers when the best other guys hit 15.
And that's the problem with this list being made that everyone seems to be agreeing with.
Ruth did it in one sport..... Jim Thorpe played MLB, is an NFL HOFer (as well as being named to the NFL's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team in 1969 all of that despite not starting his NFL Career until he was 32 and signing his last NFL Contract at the age of 40 because pro-football couldn't compete $$$-wise with MLB until the NFL was formed in 1919 - i.e., Thorpe played MLB for NY Giants, Cincinnati Reds and Boston Braves from 1913 - 1919 after leaving Carlisle in 1912) and he won 2 Gold Medals in 1912 Olympics (Decathlon and T&F Pentathlon) despite not even training for Olympics (remains only athlete in history to win both Decathlon and Pentathlon - the latter eliminated in 1924).... he set Olympic Records in Decathlon that stood for 2 decades and still would have placed 2nd when finally broken in 1932 .....
There is nobody in history that has that kind of resume as a multi-sport athlete other than Thorpe - no one even remotely close. You saying he can't be the greatest athlete ever as demonstrated by his staggering multi-sport achievements simply because he played when he played is beyond utterly ridiculous.
He won the two Olympic Gold Medals in the Decathlon and Pentathlon without even training for the Olympics or focusing on winning the Olympics (he was playing College Football in fall and organized baseball, not training for Olympics).
I think all of us realize that today's athletes - in every sport - are far superior than the athletes of the past....especially decades ago although there will be some that are stuck in the past and won't recognize it for anything. The same will hold true in 30 to 40 years from now. It just comes down to nutrition, modern training and just more people to choose from
But I also believe it's important to give the athletes of the past their due and their paving the way for the modern day athletes. Heck, Babe Ruth was probably the most popular U.S athlete of all-time during his prime - he was close to being a demi god with the masses. Jim Thorpe was another although far behind Ruth in popularity. George Mikan in basketball. Bobby Jones in golf and on and on and on. Could they excel in their sports today? Probably not but the question: where would their sports be today without many of them paving the way?
What??? You really believe a baseball or basketball player is better, and a better athlete, relative to someone who played in the the decade of the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s or 2000'simply because they are playing today versus in the past??? That is utterly absurd and I know of nobody who is knowledgable about sports who thinks today's MLB pitchers are better than Sandy Kofax, Steve Carlton, Tom Seaver........ etc.... simply because they are playing today versus multiple decades ago. You're thesis about modern athletes being defacto better is completely bereft of proof and frankly, utterly nonsensical.
Yea, I would agree with that. Most of the others played multiple sports through HS or college, but only one professional sport as an adult.... Bo Jackson was a multi-sport Pro athlete, but he is in neither sport's HOF, nor did he win multiple Olympic Golds without even training for them.
Read my post again. If you look at the athletes I referenced, they played back in the early 20th century and up to Mikan in the 1950s. What I'm saying - just like that golf thread - is that the athletes of old wouldn't come close to dominating their sports today like they did in their day. Bobby Jones, Ruth, Jim Brown, Nicklaus....... Would they all still be very, very good? Of course they would. Do you honestly think Nicklaus would win 18 majors - or even come close - with the massive field in today's PGA ? Really?
I do agree with you with your baseball example though. I consider Sandy Koufax the greatest pitcher of all-time and his dominance from 1961 to 1966 is unmatched, plus baseball is no where near as popular as it was back then. Baseball doesn't require the size, strength and speed, Koufax would still be dominant in today's game. Football, track, and maybe also basketball - nope, totally different story today.
I played football back in the late 60s and have a grandson that plays CF now and you would recognize his name. But my point - his HS teams would absolutely kill any of our teams back then. They'd be calling the game on the mercy rule in the 1st half.
You said I have no proof? Jesus man, just look at the size, speed and strength of today's athlete's. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. And we'll be saying the same thing in 3 or 4 decades down the road. They'll dwarf today's athletes. Quit living in the past
You're so full of it - your notion that Jim Brown wouldn't be the dominant Football and Lacrosse player that he was today is utter nonsense. Ditto Gayle Sayers, OJ Simpson, Franco Harris, etc..... - your notion that they are too small and slow to play in today's game is utter nonsense with zero quantifiable proof. Just utter bullshit. The only player positions that are way bigger than they used to be is OL and DL. QBs, RBs, WR, D-backs, etc.... are not clearly bigger and faster than they used to be (I went to PSU - Shane Conlan was 6' 4" and 240 lbs when he left PSU; Giftopolus was a big guy. Warner was not a tall guy but was a powerfully built RB - 220ish.... Todd Blacledge was huge - far bigger Aaron Rodgers or drew Breese... or Tom Brady for that matter). Your grossly exaggerating the physical differences between players today and players in the 70s and 80s at every position but the lines. Ditto basketball - today's players are not bigger and stronger or more athletic than Wilt Chamberlain, Darryl Dawkins, Moses Malone, Bill Walton, Robert Parish, etc....... Ditto baseball.....
Usually not mentioned, but Dave Winfield was an incredible athlete. Drafted by the MLB, NBA, ABA and NFL. Many folks felt he could’ve been a star in the NFL (was probably more of a role player in pro basketball). With 22 years in MLB and a bust in Cooperstown, he probably made the right decision.
Yep, you've convinced me - our guys from back in the 60 and 70s would destroy these young whipper snappers today. By God, bring them on....we'll show em.
Yea, OJ Simpson, Jim Brown, Franco Harris, Barry Sanders...... wouldn't have a chance against today's players....???? LMFAO, you're on some serious mind-altering drugs my friend.
Yes he did have a problem in that regard. Still is one of the four best all around athletes in this Nations history. I was not putting him on the Mt. Rushmore of morality.
All around Athletes. I don't think Ali and Jordan played any sport at a super high level other than their own.
I ran into Franco in 2018 at a Vegas Casino. The guy was big. I’m 6’3” for real, and he was at least as tall as me (even as an older guy) with wide shoulders, big hands etc. Having Franco running at you full speed in his prime must’ve been a terrifying site.
It will be interesting to see if professional athletes really do get stronger and faster over the next 30-40 years. Or will it reach a point where we simply maxed out what humans are capable of. I think we have reached that max point with racehorses. I find it interesting that after 50 years, selective breeding, and training/nutrition advances, Secretariat’s records still stand.
Reading through this thread the rightful conclusion is that workout technology, nutrition and bodybuilding has caused athleticism only relevant to the time in which that athlete lived. Add in PEDs.
For my money, the best athletes I believe I've ever seen:
For my money, the best athletes I believe I've ever seen:
- Michale Jordan. I can't imagine him playing football with his speed and leaping ability. He's make a mockery of the NFL if he could stay healthy.
- LeBron James. Same. At 6-9 and 260 with his speed and strength, he'd be the greatest TE/WR who ever lived by a wide margine.
- Bo Jackson. He could do it all and play any position he'd have liked.
- Michael Phelps
I think you're stretching it. No one on this thread is saying they wouldn't be one of the tops in their sport in today's game. Just that the athletes keep getting bigger, stronger and faster - and more to choose from - with every future generation. Just a fact.
Look at the size and speed of today's NFL DL and LBs. Do you really think Jim Brown could overwhelm them the way he did back in his day when he was bigger than many of the LBs and almost as big as some of the DLs? Or Jesse Owens (my all-time Track favorite) - he would have been smoked by Carl Lewis and Usain Bolt just like in future years some will dwarf them. Just the way it is.
But if we're going to be fair, we have to judge athletes on what they did in their own time. That's why Jim Brown, Jack Nicklaus, Jesse Owens, and Chamberlain are at the top (or near) of my all time list. But none would dominate in their sports today like they did in their time
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This is the correct answer. And we'll be saying the same thing in a few decades down the road when they will look superior to today's athletes. You'd have to be wearing blinders not to recognize this
