NCAA FLO P4P Rankings Minus the Seniors..Any thoughts?

[PSU James]

2017 NCAA FLO P4P Rankings Minus the Seniors..Any thoughts?

1. Kyle Snyder, tOSU
2. Zain Retherford, PSU
3. Jason Nolf, PSU
4. Bo Nickal, PSU
5. Isaiah Martinez, Illinois
6. Dean Heil, OSU
7. Vincenzo Joseph, PSU
8. Mark Hall, PSU
9. Nathan Tomasello, tOSU
10. Logan Massa, Michigan

 

[Lion-around]

2017 NCAA FLO P4P Rankings Minus the Seniors..Any thoughts?

1. Kyle Snyder, tOSU
2. Zain Retherford, PSU
3. Jason Nolf, PSU
4. Bo Nickal, PSU
5. Isaiah Martinez, Illinois
6. Dean Heil, OSU
7. Vincenzo Joseph, PSU
8. Mark Hall, PSU
9. Nathan Tomasello, tOSU
10. Logan Massa, Michigan

Only quibble I have is Joseph should be ahead of Martinez. Joseph was in control of that finals match IMHO.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Only quibble I have is Joseph should be ahead of Martinez. Joseph was in control of that finals match IMHO.

Agreed

 

[PSUcup1]

IMO Zain should be ahead of Snyder

this is an NCAA/ Folkstyle ranking, right? If so, Zain has proven to be the best of that discipline over the last 2 years

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

2017 NCAA FLO P4P Rankings Minus the Seniors..Any thoughts?

1. Kyle Snyder, tOSU
2. Zain Retherford, PSU
3. Jason Nolf, PSU
4. Bo Nickal, PSU
5. Isaiah Martinez, Illinois
6. Dean Heil, OSU
7. Vincenzo Joseph, PSU
8. Mark Hall, PSU
9. Nathan Tomasello, tOSU
10. Logan Massa, Michigan

What's their criteria,number of takedowns per match wrestled? Certainly can't be the number of Falls and Tech Falls.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

IMO Zain should be ahead of Snyder

this is an NCAA/ Folkstyle ranking, right? If so, Zain has proven to be the best of that discipline over the last 2 years

Not just Zain, but Nolf and Nichal as well..... Number of Falls and Tech Falls is far more important than number of takedowns in terms of measuring P4P dominance.

 

[Lyons212]

IMO Zain should be ahead of Snyder

this is an NCAA/ Folkstyle ranking, right? If so, Zain has proven to be the best of that discipline over the last 2 years

Agree. Snyder has shown over the last 2 years that big strong 285 guys can give him problems, or at least keep the match close (Medberry and Walz). Also, Snyder is not the pinner that Zain is. Last 2 years, Snyder bonus win pct is 75%, Zain 89%.

 

[dunkej01]

If Zain wrestled guys that were 40-50lbs heavier than him, would it give him trouble?

 

[PSUcup1]

Not just Zain, but Nolf and Nichal as well..... Number of Falls and Tech Falls is far more important than number of takedowns in terms of measuring P4P dominance.

when factoring in NCAA titles, Id put Snyder ahead of Nolf and Bo right now.... but he and Zain both have 2 titles, and Zain has been the better college wrestler the last 2 years.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Agree. Snyder has shown over the last 2 years that big strong 285 guys can give him problems, or at least keep the match close (Medberry and Walz). Also, Snyder is not the pinner that Zain is. Last 2 years, Snyder bonus win pct is 75%, Zain 89%.

Let's look at this year's NCAA Tournament as a classic example.... Retherford, Nolf and Nichal all were light-years more dominant against top-competition at their weight than Snyder. Snyder did not put on a "dominating performance" at HWT in any way, shape or form. People keep bringing up the lame, ".....bbbbbbbb, but he's the defending Olympic Gold Medalist." nonsense. First of all, he won his Olympic medal at 97 kg (~214 lbs), not 126 kg (i.e., comparable to US Folk's highest weight class). Secondly, Olympic wrestling is not US Folkstyle wrestling, while NCAA wrestling is.

 

[PSUcup1]

If Zain wrestled guys that were 40-50lbs heavier than him, would it give him trouble?

if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

If Zain wrestled guys that were 40-50lbs heavier than him, would it give him trouble?

Yes, it almost certainly would, but the criteria is dominance of your weight class. If Snyder were wrestling 197 rather than HWT, I'm sure he'd be more dominant.....but he isn't wrestling 197 Folk, he's chosen to wrestle HWT.

 

[tikk10]

Only quibble I have is Joseph should be ahead of Martinez. Joseph was in control of that finals match IMHO.

I agree Cenzo was in control and was going to win that finals match if it went the full seven minutes, but it's also the case that he had extremely close matches against Daniel Lewis and Logan Massa the day before. P4P rankings look at a larger body of work. Would you have supported putting Gabe Dean ahead of Ed Ruth in P4P after he beat Ed at the Scuffle? IMar has lost twice in three years, Cenzo lost four times this season

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

when factoring in NCAA titles, Id put Snyder ahead of Nolf and Bo right now.... but he and Zain both have 2 titles, and Zain has been the better college wrestler the last 2 years.

I think the only thing that needs to be factored in is how these returning competitors did at their weight class in the 2017 NCAA Tournament against top-competition (i.e., excluding all the fish they wrestle during the regular season). Snyder did not dominate the HWT division the way Retherford, Nolf and Nichal dominated their weight classes. How many falls did Snyder have at NCAAs? How many TFs at NCAAs?

 

[PSUcup1]

Id also wager that relative to body styles and natural athletic ability, Snyder is at a greater advantage relative to his competition than Zain ... just my opinion

we have seen another "undersized" 220lb HWT go 131-1 (in dominating fashion) over 3 seasons, so its not unheard of prior to Snyder

not trying to belittle Snyder's accomplishments, just that IMO Zain's are more impressive at the college level

 

[PSUisawesome]

I agree Cenzo was in control and was going to win that finals match if it went the full seven minutes, but it's also the case that he had extremely close matches against Daniel Lewis and Logan Massa the day before. P4P rankings look at a larger body of work. Would you have supported putting Gabe Dean ahead of Ed Ruth in P4P after he beat Ed at the Scuffle? IMar has lost twice in three years, Cenzo lost four times this season

Nice comeback still think this is the END of the year not the last two years. As of finals night CJ has the nod because he won. If it was a wrestle off CJ would start Imar would ride the bench. And Zain won the hodge not Snyder.

 

[PSUcup1]

I agree Cenzo was in control and was going to win that finals match if it went the full seven minutes, but it's also the case that he had extremely close matches against Daniel Lewis and Logan Massa the day before. P4P rankings look at a larger body of work. Would you have supported putting Gabe Dean ahead of Ed Ruth in P4P after he beat Ed at the Scuffle? IMar has lost twice in three years, Cenzo lost four times this season

I agree for the most part, however Ed had also pinned Dean before he lost to him, and then beat Dean again when it mattered.... so not really an apples to apples comparison there

 

[Lion-around]

I agree Cenzo was in control and was going to win that finals match if it went the full seven minutes, but it's also the case that he had extremely close matches against Daniel Lewis and Logan Massa the day before. P4P rankings look at a larger body of work. Would you have supported putting Gabe Dean ahead of Ed Ruth in P4P after he beat Ed at the Scuffle? IMar has lost twice in three years, Cenzo lost four times this season

Flo was ranking wrestlers after nationals, not after the Scuffle. After nationals, Ruth was better than Dean. Joseph was clearly getting better as the season progressed and while he did have close matches against Lewis and Massa, I'm not sure many would have predicted a win for Joseph in those match ups. The match against Martinez simply high lighted the great progress he made as the season progressed. He was better than Martinez after nationals.

 

[tikk10]

I agree for the most part, however Ed had also pinned Dean before he lost to him, and then beat Dean again when it mattered.... so not really an apples to apples comparison there

Apples to apples is the day after that Scuffle after the finals; you put Dean ahead of Ed that day?

 

[tikk10]

Flo was ranking wrestlers after nationals, not after the Scuffle. After nationals, Ruth was better than Dean. Joseph was clearly getting better as the season progressed and while he did have close matches against Lewis and Massa, I'm not sure many would have predicted a win for Joseph in those match ups. The match against Martinez simply high lighted the great progress he made as the season progressed. He was better than Martinez after nationals.

I was clearly talking about P4P rankings after the Scuffle; Flo updates throughout the season. I'm not moving the goalposts, I merely put forward what I think is a close analogue. Everyone arguing the Cenzo deserves to be above IMar in P4P rankings is either ignoring Flo's stated criteria, which considers the entire body of work, not merely the last mach, or they're making up their own criteria.

 

[PSUisawesome]

Apples to apples is the day after that Scuffle after the finals; you put Dean ahead of Ed that day?

Apples to apples is the day after that Scuffle after the finals; you put Dean ahead of Ed that day?

There is also the fact that CJ didn't just win he out wrestled Imar. It was clear to me at least that the Illinois wrestling had failed Imar and his development had slowed while CJ and the rest of the fabulous five were accelerating. This was not a MyMar beats Bo thing this was a CJ out wrestles someone who needs to change or loose his stature.

 

[PSUcup1]

Apples to apples is the day after that Scuffle after the finals; you put Dean ahead of Ed that day?

after the scuffle, Id have still had Ed ranked ahead of him.
If that match had occurred at Nationals, Id have had Dean ahead of him (all other things remaining equal) , as I think the match at NCAA's carries that much more significance

 

[Ja1339]

Heil is the only wrestler on this list that was pinned last year.

 

[Lion-around]

I was clearly talking about P4P rankings after the Scuffle; Flo updates throughout the season. I'm not moving the goalposts, I merely put forward what I think is a close analogue. Everyone arguing the Cenzo deserves to be above IMar in P4P rankings is either ignoring Flo's stated criteria, which considers the entire body of work, not merely the last mach, or they're making up their own criteria.

I was clearly talking about P4P rankings after the Scuffle; Flo updates throughout the season. I'm not moving the goalposts, I merely put forward what I think is a close analogue. Everyone arguing the Cenzo deserves to be above IMar in P4P rankings is either ignoring Flo's stated criteria, which considers the entire body of work, not merely the last mach, or they're making up their own criteria.

If the criteria of 'body of work' trumps what is clearly an improved body of work for Joseph at the end of the season, than the criteria is flawed. That FLO ranking definitely gives the impression, intended or not, that Martinez was better P4P than Joseph after nationals. Joseph was better to end the season; do you think the body of work matters to Martinez given he lost at nationals?

 

[dunkej01]

Yes, it almost certainly would, but the criteria is dominance of your weight class. If Snyder were wrestling 197 rather than HWT, I'm sure he'd be more dominant.....but he isn't wrestling 197 Folk, he's chosen to wrestle HWT.

Looking only at the list in the OP it doesnt have weight classes and says P4P. So if the list is P4P, then my question is valid. I also go out on a limb and say this likely how CP the author of the list is thinking. Its not a list of who is most dominate in their weight class.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I was clearly talking about P4P rankings after the Scuffle; Flo updates throughout the season. I'm not moving the goalposts, I merely put forward what I think is a close analogue. Everyone arguing the Cenzo deserves to be above IMar in P4P rankings is either ignoring Flo's stated criteria, which considers the entire body of work, not merely the last mach, or they're making up their own criteria.

Don't necessarily agree with your comparison of scuffle to NCAA being analogous, but I do agree that you have to take the wrestlers' overall record and the wrestlers' records against each other into consideration. In this case, I-Mar had the 2-1 record like Ruth. As you also point out, I-Mar's only loss for the season was that match against VinJo, while VinJo had two other losses (Subjek & Jordan) on top of the two losses to I-Mar. Beyond that, I-Mar was more dominating on a "per match" basis during the year, at B1Gs and at Nationals than VinJo... Add it all up, I can understand ranking I-Mar slightly higher going into next year - if both wrestlers stay at the same weight, I believe I-Mar will come into their first match up with the higher per match scoring average and I don't see VinJo being a favorite (look at the adjustments I-Mar made against Nolf after he lost to him...he will make adjustments against VinJo as well). I am not saying that VinJo cannot beat I-Mar again, but I am saying that I am not at all surprised that I-Mar is the higher ranked wrestler in this case and potentially the favorite going into their next match. I-Mar remains one of the all-time great wrestlers in NCAA History with a 96-2 lifetime record, two NCAA Titles and a 2nd place finish, going into his last year of eligibility.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

A few things:

1. PfP is an "eye test" evaluation and we know, per Kirk Herbstreit, that the Buckeyes ace the eye test.

2. Clearly not enough weight given to deadlifting or NATO would be higher and Bojo would crack the top 10

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Looking only at the list in the OP it doesnt have weight classes and says P4P. So if the list is P4P, then my question is valid. I also go out on a limb and say this likely how CP the author of the list is thinking. Its not a list of who is most dominate in their weight class.

P4P has been stolen from boxing - what it is supposed to be is a "prediction" as to who would win if all parties competed at the same weight (i.e., a theoretical construct that could be estimated by having the heavier guy theoretically shed weight and compete at the smaller man's weight.......or adding weight and size to the smaller man such that they competed at the bigger man's weight). In any event, it is completely a "theoretical construct" which basically asks the question, "Who would win if everybody weighted the same amount and competed at the same weight class....?". The evidence imho suggests that Zain would beat Snyder if they both competed in the same weight class as Zain is light-years better "on the mat". Against "quality competition", Snyder looks clueless as to what to do on the mat (including after takedowns in both Free and Folk) - he is not a "dynamic" wrestler even in Free. He is a great tactician, great shot-maker and great at winning low-scoring, full length affairs, but he is not great at just taking people out with his offense even on the Free circuit.....he out-wrestles them, but he does not TF and pin them.

 

[dunkej01]

P4P has been stolen from boxing - what it is supposed to be is a "prediction" as to who would win if all parties competed at the same weight (i.e., a theoretical construct that could be estimated by having the heavier guy theoretically shed weight and compete at the smaller man's weight.......or adding weight and size to the smaller man such that they competed at the bigger man's weight). In any event, it is completely a "theoretical construct" which basically asks the question, "Who would win if everybody weighted the same amount and competed at the same weight class....?". The evidence imho suggests that Zain would beat Snyder if they both competed in the same weight class as Zain is light-years better "on the mat". Against "quality competition", Snyder looks clueless as to what to do on the mat (including after takedowns in both Free and Folk) - he is not a "dynamic" wrestler even in Free. He is a great tactician, great shot-maker and great at winning low-scoring, full length affairs, but he is not great at just taking people out with his offense even on the Free circuit.....he out-wrestles them, but he does not TF and pin them.

You ever try twitter? If not you should.

 

[ptomaselli]

My thoughts? How long before the rest of our squad makes the list? Next March is my bet.

 

[PSUcup1]

You ever try twitter? If not you should.

LMAO! great post

 

[Chickenman Testa]

LMAO! great post

#savage
#irony

 

[PSUcup1]

Yes, it almost certainly would, but the criteria is dominance of your weight class. If Snyder were wrestling 197 rather than HWT, I'm sure he'd be more dominant.....but he isn't wrestling 197 Folk, he's chosen to wrestle HWT.

Im quite certain JDen Cox would have given Snyder a tougher match than anyone at 285lbs this year ..... and while he was a true freshman, Snyder was not nearly as dominant at 197 as he has been at 285. so Im not 100% sure i agree with this (although 197 was weak this year after Cox)

 

[Pennstate1985]

Heil is the only wrestler on this list that was pinned last year.

Joseph begs to differ.

 

[El-Jefe]

If Zain wrestled guys that were 40-50lbs heavier than him, would it give him trouble?

We haven't seen Snyder wrestle the flu either.

 

[El-Jefe]

Heil is the only wrestler on this list that was pinned last year.

Cenzo is the only wrestler on the list to pin another wrestler on the list this year.

 

[NoVa Lion]

These threads always puzzle me. Why do people get all worked up over someone's opinion, especially when the main reason for them putting that opinion out there is to get clicks. These rankings mean exactly bupkus, which is a technical term for NOTHING.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Context always helps. First, the Flo P4P rankings after the NCAAs are available at THIS LINK.

Second, you need to keep in mind what their previous P4P ranking was, before NCAAs. Here's the OP's list, with the previous ranking included:

1. Kyle Snyder - (1)
2. Zain - (2)
3. Nolf - (4)
4. Nickal - (10)
5. IMar - (3)
6. Heil - (9)
7. Cenzo - (NR)
8. Hall - (NR)
9. NaTo - (7)
10. Massa - (12)

Cenzo and Hall moving into the top (and 10 & 11 if Seniors are not removed), is pretty remarkable when they were not ranked (i.e., not in the top 20) before NCAAs.

My take on some of the issues raised in the thread:

1. Zain should be ahead of Snyder
- I don't think there's a lot of separation between the two. That said, during the regular season Zain had his 9-8 (TB-2) win over Sorensen, and his 2-1 win over Collica in the National Duals. By contrast, Snyder's only decisions were at B1Gs to Kroells (14-7) and Medbery (8-5) and to the same two guys at NCAAs (13-7 over Kroells and 6-3 over Medbery in the final). While Zain TFed or pinned everyone he faced at NCAAs, I'm not sure that is enough to move him from 2nd to 1st, and after the two regular season matches I listed above, I would have had Zain 2nd in P4P.

2. Cenzo should be ahead of IMar
- that's a tough one. IMar defeated Cenzo two times during the season (dual and B1G semis). Cenzo also lost to Isaac Jordan during the regular season (revenged that with a 5-2 victory in the 3rd/4th match at B1Gs) and to Keaton Subjeck (Stanford) during the regular season (revenged that with a 5-1 victory at NCAAs). By contrast, IMar was undefeated during the regular season. Based on their respective records, IMar was ranked #3 in the P4P pre-NCAAs, while Cenzo was not ranked. In the Flo final rankings at 165, Joseph is #1 and IMar is #2. The P4P is less based on what have you done lately, and more based on body of work, and in that case I think that IMar ranked higher than Cenzo is justifiable.

 

[RoarLions1]

P4P has different definitions. I don't prefer any sort of "eye test", instead liking something more quantitative.

The Most Dominant Wrestler Award provides a pretty good quantitative model. For next year, based on body of work, an early guess from me would be that Snyder, Retherford, Nolf, Nickal, and Martinez should be at the top of the list. Maybe add Z. Valencia too.

Next tier, again just me, is B. Jordan, Epperly, M. Jordan, Nevills, Hall, Massa, McKenna, Tomasello, Joseph, Brock, Suriano, Heil and Kemerer. Guys coming off RS can be added too.

 

[bscaff1]

I'd have Zahid ahead of Massa. If past credentials are a component, then MyMar has an argument over Massa as well.