Obligatory PSU Pregame Show - OSU recap/IU preview
- Thread starter CaliLION79
- Start date
So true. What has changed since the infamous “great to elite” rant? Nothing accept an awful lot of money thrown at the program and the coaches. How much? Probably well over nine figures and it actually feels like the program has been regressing. We bought in on the hype and it was clear after Delaware that the product is the same old same old.
The Mark Richt comparisons are accurate and the irony is that in 2015 the two programs stood on the same field in Jville and it’s amazing to look back on what has happened since. The difference… the Bulldogs made the tough decision just like Clemson did and both have reaped the benefits of those tough decisions.
This university and this program may have to make the same tough decision very soon because the level of investment, and continuing ask, is insane and is not sustainable if the resulting product is no better. It’s a money pit.
The Mark Richt comparisons are accurate and the irony is that in 2015 the two programs stood on the same field in Jville and it’s amazing to look back on what has happened since. The difference… the Bulldogs made the tough decision just like Clemson did and both have reaped the benefits of those tough decisions.
This university and this program may have to make the same tough decision very soon because the level of investment, and continuing ask, is insane and is not sustainable if the resulting product is no better. It’s a money pit.
We played a team that had better talent across the entire 22. Why is that so hard to say? The issue was that every single running back, every single TE and every single WR was held in check by two great defenses except one. Marvin Harrison killed us. KLS was our most productive player and he had 52 yards. Second was Singleton with 48. Their best players not named Harrison had 70 and 62. What jumps off the stat sheet is that Harrison had 11 catches for 162 years. That is more than double than the next-best offensive player for either team.
Better developed talent or just simply your broad statement of, better talent regardless of where they are now? I mean I would like to think that Kaytron and Nick are as good as Trayanum and Hayden -- considering OSU's #1 RB was out.
Was Drew Allar considered a higher ranked recruit than Kyle McCord?
Idk...just seems to me that the subtext of your post is that 'we should lose b/c psu doesn't have the overall roster that osu does.' I mean, no kidding. All but like 2 teams in the country do. Yet, Michigan, who gets outrecruited by OSU annually, has whipped their a** the last two years. UT and Clemson, who recruit well, consistently for the last few yrs have lost to 'lesser' programs in recent yrs. If chalk always won, there wouldn't be CFB mayhem most to every week. How about overcoming some 'slight' talent issues in spots.
Talent gets you to a certain level, a certain plateau...coaching does the rest. And, with the exception of Diaz and Smith, I think our staff consistently underperforms and clearly doesn't have it for big games.
There are 22 kids playing. They are all interdependent. Lets break down what we saw, offense to offense, Saturday by grouping
- Two of our OL graded out very poorly. One was the center and one a guard. You aren't going to have much of a running game when a Center and Guard are getting mauled. Our center wasn't ranked, that I can find, and went to Cornell then Xfered in. Their Center is a four-star recruit named Hinzman. We also played our second team guard as the first teamer, JB Nelson, was hurt. Years and years of getting 4 and 5 star kids has created much better depth at tOSU than PSU. And that lack of depth (at C and G) for Penn State showed up on Saturday.
- At QB we started a 19 year old true Soph and tOSU played a 21 year old. Their kid played in a very tough ND environment and ours was playing his first bigtime road game. According to rivals, theirs was ranked 35th, our 70th that recruiting season.
- At WR they've got the best one in all of college football in Harrison. He is flanked by five-star Julian Flemming. We've got a very good one in KLS and after that, bupkis. Our hopes rested on a kid from Kent and a kid that couldn't crack the lineup at Florida State.
- I'd say TE is a draw. We've got two good ones and so do they.
My old coach used to say that a team is like a chain; only as good as its weakest link. tOSU attacked our Center/Guard positions to stop the run and pressure the QB. Without a running game, we were forced to pass. tOSU has a great secondary to go with a very good front seven. Our meager WR corp couldn't get open and that left check downs. And once we got behind, they just buried anyone who touched the ball as we were one-dimensional. The bottom line is that they had a better 22 and probably coaching. That's it.
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Appreciate your research here and perspective. I just respectfully disagree. I mean, by this logic, anytime PSU plays someone that 'recruits better', which really is OSU, it's fine if they lose? I just see other teams weekly in CFB overcome and get coached up and don't annually choke and disappoint. Something is amiss with PSU in big games.
Where did you get your rivals rankings? Allar was the 3rd ranked player in the country per https://247sports.com/player/drew-allar-46096466/
Meanwhile, McCord was 49th: https://247sports.com/player/kyle-mccord-46047962/
Not trying to be argumentative at all..but my understanding at least was that Allar was a MUCH higher rated QB.
At any rate, not every position is going to be loaded with talent everywhere, whether it be at PSU, OSU, Bama, etc. Much of OSU's rivals rating is based on their WR room, which is far and away their best room that they recruit. PSU has had multiple players over JF's tenure that have been better at various positions, and it's not close in some cases. Under JF, we don't get coached up to win...to me that is the difference as much as talent.
no problem. First, the point is that Allar is 19, McCord 21. A HUGE difference in terms of maturity. Second, I took the rankings from Rivals and they are total not by position. My point is anyone who expected Allar to play as good as McCord was kidding themselves all things being equal. I had hoped that PSU would have had a running attack to take some pressure off of him and make the DBs respect the run. Without a running game, and without a WR to approach the skill set of Harrison, we were doomed.
But overall, I think the game was lost on the OL where we have a Center who just isn't as skilled as we'd like and we played a very young guard instead of JB Nelson.
So when I look back on all of that, it comes down to depth. After years and years of tOSU recruiting in the top two or three, they just have better depth than we do.
It’s no longer acceptable to lose to O$U the way they do looking like a junior HS outfit that cannot get out their own way. The optics every year are not good. Period. You can talk all you want about MH who is a dynamic player but the PSU game plan was terrible or they gave up it on it too soon. I’m never one to rant on the kids. The blame is on the coaches who repeatedly do not perform when it matters and haven’t in the last five years. They legitimately had three weeks to prepare and that’s the product they roll out?
Thank god McCord was the buckeyes QB otherwise the score would have been a route like the regular trip to AA is for Franklin. The guy has got to start winning these games or the level of investment is not pushing the program forward which supposedly it would do. The core of the problem at PSU is the quality of offensive coaches. It’s just not as good as the defensive coaches or the top five programs. That’s on the HC to fix it! He hasn’t.
Thank god McCord was the buckeyes QB otherwise the score would have been a route like the regular trip to AA is for Franklin. The guy has got to start winning these games or the level of investment is not pushing the program forward which supposedly it would do. The core of the problem at PSU is the quality of offensive coaches. It’s just not as good as the defensive coaches or the top five programs. That’s on the HC to fix it! He hasn’t.
I agree with your post. Even if you accept that OSU had better overall talent than PSU in the starting 22, which they probably did but it certainly was not as much this season as the other seasons in Franklin's tenure, PSU under Franklin almost always beats the teams that they should beat, save for some Illinois and MSU games, but almost never, ever beats any teams that they probably shouldn't, save for the 2016 OSU game. Just within the past several weeks, GT won at Miami, and UVA won at UNC, so upsets are allowed to happen. God, Arizona took USC to several OTs at USC a few weeks ago.
The point spread at game time last week was, I believe, 4.5, so that means that it was almost considered to be an even matchup by the wise guys, who obviously believed that PSU matched up fairly evenly with OSU. A win in that game wouldn't have been a big surprise, expect for the fact that Franklin just is totally incapable of winning these types of games, expecially on the road. Ask your self this: would PSU had beaten Miami in the Fiesta Bowl, when PSU basically was playing against a team loaded with future NFL players? I believe that the answer is obvious.
In conclusion, I wouldn't have been so disillusioned with a loss last week if PSU actually had looked like a competent operation on the offensive side of the ball. Alas, the coaches failed to use the talent that they actually have to their best advantage, and of course the players failed miserably in executing whatever gameplan they were given. What sad that even tomorrow, I bet that PSU struggles to score in the 30s against a team that gave up over 50 to Michigan and over 30 last week at home to Rutgers.
i don't know. to me, when you are asking a coach to win a game when he has less talent that is called "hope". And I was always taught that 'hope is not a strategy'.
I hope we get lucky. I hope they screw up. I hope the refs finally call some bad calls against them. I hope our young QB surprises me. I hope our injured guard can play. I hope our ivy league center can play with the best DL and DL coach in the league. I hope we can limit the best college WR in the league.
The defense played good enough to win. But we couldn't get any ground game to protect from the fact that our QB was inexperienced. The OL, center and guard, certainly didn't help. tOSU didn't screw anything up. We hoped we'd be better but we are not.
That was my whole point. I don't believe that PSU needed hope to win that game last week. I mean, they didn't convert a single third down in the game, yet were losing by only 4 to 7 points throughout the second half until the latter part of the fourth quarter; it would've taken very little to win that game because this OSU team simply is not a good offense against elite teams even with Harrison. Even with Harrison and their starting rb and other starting receiver, how many points do you think that they're going to score against Michigan this season; McCord will be exposed totally in that game? God, they had to go to the last second to score 14 points against a two-loss ND, which also can't score against decent teams.
Our talent gap is not that far off from OSU to say we should not have expected to win that game. It is not a "hope" to beat them. Like we are Purdue or Indiana needing a miracle. Yes, OSU has an edge in talent, clearly WR but after that it is very close. And no, that game was not decided by the fact that they have Harrison. The fact that our center and guard did not have a good game and their talent level is supposedly way off what OSU has did not decide the outcome. Did the OSU offensive line have some great game? No.
Allar should be at McCord's level. McCord did not have a great game and he looks like the worst OSU QB in I don't know how many years. To say that OSU has a big edge in talent at QB is wrong.
I said this before the game and unfortunately it played out. We do not have the mental fortitude to win in Columbus or Ann Arbor in these big games. Heck not even in State College recently. We are incapable of making winning, clutch plays. That starts with coaching and goes to player execution. Mentally we can't make the key play when needed. We can't make the crucial play call (4th and 4 vs OSU in 2018 and Sanders gets stuffed, ring a bell?)
That offensive performance was an outright embarrassment. We have talent on the offensive side of the ball. As I said, Allar is a special talent but somehow some way he looked like Matt Senecca. We have 2 RBs and 2 TEs who will all play on Sundays yet they essentially disappear. All four of those guys are equal or better than what OSU has to offer at those positions.
The playcalling was horrific, no adjustments and at some point you have to consider putting Pribula in to provide a spark. The coaches just watched as Allar circled the drain then went down it.
It is unacceptable to blame that loss on a talent gap. If that is true then we will never beat OSU, never. Let's just pencil in that loss every year. Oh but we have a coach who collects $9 million a year and God knows how many other perks resources, etc he gets to then lose every big game he coaches in.
I understand OSU has Harrison but we could have won even with him on the other side. We were in the game yet because we cannot convert any key third downs and move the ball more than 6 yards for 25 minutes in the second half we give them the game. They were ripe for the taking yet we once again do not know how to win.
Again, the so called talent disparity did not decide this game. This was not PSU vs Illinois where there is a significant talent gap. Blaming it on talent is making an excuse and covering up the brutal facts that James Franklin cannot win big games. He just can't. He does not get his team mentally prepared, he does not construct a winning game plan and he cannot make any adjustments in-game. His players never execute well in these big games and do not make the clutch plays. That falls on him.
Let's look at some of the painful history
2017 Rose Bowl - Defense cannot hold a two score lead late. Sam Darnold had do much time he was eating his dinner before he threw the ball. We had NFL talent all over that field yet found a way to lose.
2017 vs OSU. Defense collapses in the 4h quarter. I think OSU scored on every drive and outscored us like 21-0 in the last 10 minutes or whatever it was.
2018 vs OSU. White Out, crowd roaring as we are up 26-14 with 8 minutes to go. What happens? We lose because we can't make one play the last 8 minutes. Just one stop and we win that game.
2021 vs Mich. We are in that game and should have won. Dopey fake FG call screws us and then we give up a 50 yard pass to their tight end to lose it. They make the clutch play and we don't. We lose to Cade McNamara, enough said.
I want so badly for us to beat scUM. I will get my hopes up thinking this is the game we can actually be an underdog yet win. Then it is like the ball being pulled away from Charlie Brown as he is about to kick it. I hope I'm wrong but I have seen this bad movie way too many times.
Allar should be at McCord's level. McCord did not have a great game and he looks like the worst OSU QB in I don't know how many years. To say that OSU has a big edge in talent at QB is wrong.
I said this before the game and unfortunately it played out. We do not have the mental fortitude to win in Columbus or Ann Arbor in these big games. Heck not even in State College recently. We are incapable of making winning, clutch plays. That starts with coaching and goes to player execution. Mentally we can't make the key play when needed. We can't make the crucial play call (4th and 4 vs OSU in 2018 and Sanders gets stuffed, ring a bell?)
That offensive performance was an outright embarrassment. We have talent on the offensive side of the ball. As I said, Allar is a special talent but somehow some way he looked like Matt Senecca. We have 2 RBs and 2 TEs who will all play on Sundays yet they essentially disappear. All four of those guys are equal or better than what OSU has to offer at those positions.
The playcalling was horrific, no adjustments and at some point you have to consider putting Pribula in to provide a spark. The coaches just watched as Allar circled the drain then went down it.
It is unacceptable to blame that loss on a talent gap. If that is true then we will never beat OSU, never. Let's just pencil in that loss every year. Oh but we have a coach who collects $9 million a year and God knows how many other perks resources, etc he gets to then lose every big game he coaches in.
I understand OSU has Harrison but we could have won even with him on the other side. We were in the game yet because we cannot convert any key third downs and move the ball more than 6 yards for 25 minutes in the second half we give them the game. They were ripe for the taking yet we once again do not know how to win.
Again, the so called talent disparity did not decide this game. This was not PSU vs Illinois where there is a significant talent gap. Blaming it on talent is making an excuse and covering up the brutal facts that James Franklin cannot win big games. He just can't. He does not get his team mentally prepared, he does not construct a winning game plan and he cannot make any adjustments in-game. His players never execute well in these big games and do not make the clutch plays. That falls on him.
Let's look at some of the painful history
2017 Rose Bowl - Defense cannot hold a two score lead late. Sam Darnold had do much time he was eating his dinner before he threw the ball. We had NFL talent all over that field yet found a way to lose.
2017 vs OSU. Defense collapses in the 4h quarter. I think OSU scored on every drive and outscored us like 21-0 in the last 10 minutes or whatever it was.
2018 vs OSU. White Out, crowd roaring as we are up 26-14 with 8 minutes to go. What happens? We lose because we can't make one play the last 8 minutes. Just one stop and we win that game.
2021 vs Mich. We are in that game and should have won. Dopey fake FG call screws us and then we give up a 50 yard pass to their tight end to lose it. They make the clutch play and we don't. We lose to Cade McNamara, enough said.
I want so badly for us to beat scUM. I will get my hopes up thinking this is the game we can actually be an underdog yet win. Then it is like the ball being pulled away from Charlie Brown as he is about to kick it. I hope I'm wrong but I have seen this bad movie way too many times.
Three of the skill players you mentioned WR, WR, and QB are all from PA high schools. Isn’t part of the coaches job . . . to recruit. Yet all the rave is how good of a recruiter he is, but we have huge holes that you’ve identified. Why? And why do we have 20 WRs (ok exaggeration) but none of them are able to create separation?
Regarding your last paragraph, their best DB was out.
I totally agree with you about the lack of intestinal fortitude to win a game like that, which the PSU program simply does not have anymore. Take the MSU game two seasons ago that was played in the snow. I know that PSU was in a tailspin in the second half of that season and MSU was having a great season. However, PSU was winning that game well into the second half. Despite this, I just knew that MSU eventually would find a way to win that game because PSU just doesn't win games like that anymore. You almost can say the same thing about the Iowa game earlier in that same season, although at least PSU had the excuse of losing its starting qb in the second quarter and having a totally incapable backup; the defense played admirably but you just knew that it would break eventually and Iowa would win.
PSU under Franklin is a great frontrunning team when they have little adversity. However, as soon as they're faced with a little adversity, they usually end up capitulating. The program just has a soft mentality now. Michigan was heading in this direction too until the 2021 season, when something changed and they became a rough, tough program again. Clearly, PSU needs to do this, but I have my doubts that this ever will happen under Franklin. I just wish that we had a lot more of those blue collar sons of PA steelworkers and miners who used to populate PSU's roster back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and those paesans from NJ, who lived for the battle.
Agreed. We lack depth as compared to tOSU. Others, not rhyming with schishigan, we are better.
Let me ask you this. Why can't the offensive "brain trust" come up with schemes that can create some separation for the wide receivers. I mean, look at how the LA Rams head coach comes up with schemes to get receivers like Kupp and Nacua open, and they never will be confused with Tyreek Hill. Also, look at how Bill Walsh created schemes to get the 49ers receivers open in the early 80s before they had receivers like Rice and Taylor. KC is another example that has a bunch of mediocre receivers except for the tight end, and they somehow are open all of the time because of schemes.
Do mean to tell me that these receivers aren't more athletic than most of the dbs on most of the teams that we've played so far this season, yet they apparently haven't been getting a lot of separation. I believe that they are atheltic enough and, if they're not getting open, that tells me that the schemes suck.
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I watched a backup walk-on QB from Utah who was working odd jobs to pay his bills be coached up enough to play well enough to beat USC at USC. Yes, the Trojan defense is suspect, but player by player, USC likely averages at least 1* - 1-1/2* better across their rosters. Oh, and that’s three in a row.
Sadly, I think this team lacks leadership. Olu is the only person I can think of that is a leader buy he seems very quiet. I am talking on the offense right now. Perhaps the TEs need to step up and get people angry.
A perfect world for me would be them coming out without the antics, chest bumping, and screaming pre-game speeches. I'd like to see them come out with eyes ablaze and an attitude. Nobody talks crap, the just do their ****ing jobs. I like Indiana but just come out an bury the ****ers.
Franklion missed his moment in 2017-2019 by losing twice to O$U and Sparty and then to Minny and O$U. That was it. He was ready to elevate like a Georgia and Clemson before them but crapped the bed. Not sure he’ll get another chance because the Mark Richt moniker is getting attached to him and his offensive coaches are average at best.
I don’t have that answer but something has to change or we do not get over the hump. The antics are easily corrected - I’m your head coach, not your best friend.
Regarding the offense - it’s too late this year, but, and I’ve said this in other posts, you have determine your identity to scheme your offense to your best talent or your recruit your talent to your preferred offense. Take it for what it’s worth.
Bama, OSU, and UGA are on runs over the past 14, 10, and 5 years that are not typical. The best any coach has done in this span is 3 wins over one of these teams. That guy was fired and the team has been below average since (Malzahn).
I don't know the time frames, but its a recipe for changing coaches every 3 years maybe.
McCord was a high rated QB his entire time by all services. Allar came on late. Not a discernible difference in them rating wise.
Instead of Tengwall, who in theory would have been the starter.
I don't completely agree. Allar and the offense have to take a big step tomorrow. They need to come out an adjust punish Indiana and then plow through the rest of the season. Allar was timid but needs to own it and take control. He needs to lead. If PSU can do that, win out, can leave that game in the rear view mirror. We are ranked 10 and still have half the season to go.
I agree. If I were Franklin and saw that Allar or any other starter for that matter was pouting because of last week and sleepwalking, I'd immediately pull that player and play his backup without thinking twice about it.
Yep, I'd invoke the "if we die, we die" line on them on Monday morning at the first team meeting. You either run from this or use it. We'll see tomorrow. A 35-20 win ain't gonna cut it. We need to annihilate Indiana.
Really liked Tengwall; he had good mobility, could pass block, and also pull out and get to the second level often
Didn't realize how much he'd be missed.
Great point. Whittingham coaches up Utah every year to play over their pay grade. They don't have close to the talent USC has. Here's the difference, Utah is tough, gritty and hard nosed. USC is soft.
Oh for Christ sake this whole excuses making thing EVERY SINGLE SEASON where WHOEVER gets hurt is the GREATEST FOOTBALL PLAYER ON EARTH, needs to end.
Our right tackle goes down in 2017 in Columbus and the next day he is Anthony Munoz.
Journey Brown goes down in 2019 and the next week he is Archie Griffin.
Now it's Tengwall and suddenly he is John Hannah.
Just give it a rest. He was a fairly promising kid who played in half a dozen games and was injury prone and now he is done with football. That's it. Quit making excuses.
I kinda figured he might end up at Center by this season.
Put biomed on block. He's...something. lol
Oh I'm so sorry...the season was absolutely ruined when we lost Remington trophy winner and future NFL hall of famer Tengwall
It would behoove some people to just compare recruiting rankings for PSU and Ohio State over the last 10 or so years. Penn State's very best class is basically what Ohio State counts on every single year. If Penn State gets a 5 star recruit, that's a big deal. If Ohio State takes a 4 star recruit that's unusual -- it's usually because they like the 4 star better than 5 stars they could have had.
Yes Allar and McCord were both 5 stars but 1) McCord is athletically the weakest QB Ohio State has had in several years and 2) Ohio State basically passed on Allar probably because they didn't like his lack of mobility (and yes they did offer a scholarship very late but that's kind of a courtesy to an Ohio kid that they knew at that point was already headed to PSU.)
But the big disparity this year talent-wise was wide receiver. Penn State doesn't have a single wideout who would even make the squad at Ohio State. Whereas Ohio State has at least 3 wideouts (and probably more counting the freshmen) who would be by far the best receiver at Penn State.
Anybody who thinks the talent level at PSU is even close to the general talent level at Ohio State isn't paying attention.
So this notion that Penn State is going to magically beat Ohio State just because it wants to, and if Penn State loses it's reason to fire the coach -- that is basically just immaturity and delusion on the part of some PSU fans. They're both well coached teams but all other things equal, Ohio State is going to win this game 90% of the time because their players are the best in college football, every year PSU is going against future NFL all-pros.
Ohio State isn't just going to give PSU games. They're going to play their best. Penn State needs breaks/turnovers to win -- and in the case of Saturday even with breaks, they couldn't win because they had no passing game.
The good news is that PSU was closer to parity at the line of scrimmage with Ohio State than they've been in a really long time -- probably going back to 2005.
We can argue about this until the cows come home. McCord and Allar are identical or even advantage Allar. That is the most important position on the field. We don't need to pay a coach $9 million a year to lose to Ohio State every year.
There is no way you could have watched that game and said "well Ohio State's passing game is better". And that is the whole story. Yeah, got that but that is not why we lost. We lost because we had a ridiculously underperforming offense as a whole. There were opportunities to score on OSU and win that and not some lucky, miracle win. Their defense is not the '85 Bears but we sure as hell made them look that way. Terrible play calls. Abysmal execution.
I looked at Rivals recruiting rankings 2019-2022. These would be the players on the field last Saturday for the most part.
The first thing is OSU was below both PSU and Mich in the 2019 team recruiting rankings. OSU at 21, PSU at 11 and Mich at 10. But somehow that makes no difference in our favor and we are still light years away from their talent level.
2020
OSU #5
Mich #11
PSU #15
2021
OSU #2
Mich #10
PSU #25
2022
OSU #4
PSU #7
Mich #9
So your narrative fits that they are ahead of us in talent acquisition and way ahead for the 2021 class. I guess no team in the B10 can ever beat them for the foreseeable future. The only factor that matters is talent based on recruiting rankings.
Wait, didn't Michigan beat OSU the last 2 years?? How is that possible? Their recruiting and thus talent trails OSU??
I understand that sentiment, but it might cost $9 million to win those other 10 games. I don't honestly know.
Seems like we could get a better deal than that plus he also typically loses to Michigan (3-6). $9 mil seems excessive for third place.
