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"Offensive" strategy discussion

Call me crazy but what about 2.5 points for a TD? 5-2 score after 2 TDs and 2 Es is much better than 4-2 (as stated above 6-2 is probably too much). They rewarded NF a few years ago when they went to the 4 point rule so why not reward neutral offense also?

Many matches have an TD and E in the 1st. Let's say 2.5 red, 1 green with 25 seconds of ride time. 2nd period R goes down and can't get out. Still 2.5 red, 1 green with 1:35 ride time green. 3rd period green goes down. He really needs to get out in 35 seconds to save his ride time. Let's say he does, now it's 2.5 red and 2 green with 65 seconds left. I think this would make for a really exciting 3rd period. Green is losing so he has to go for it. Get the TD, keep his ride time and he's in a great spot. Likewise, if red stays offensive he can almost certainly put the match away with a TD. If there was any top or bottom stalling in the 2nd then it would really limit that wrestler's ability to run in the 3rd. Even if green doesn't get out in time to save his RT he can still win the match with a late TD (score would be 4.5 green to 2.5 red) - both wrestlers had a TD but green had 2 escapes and that would be the difference.

If it just ends 2.5 red to 2 green then I'm ok with that too. Reward offense. If you want ride someone after a TD then fine. If you want to ride and turn someone then fine. However, if you want to ride just to ride then I think you should lose the match IF you gave up a TD at some point.

NOTE: I don't think I would like this change for high school though since there is no ride time. I would have to think that one through a little bit more.
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It read as if an extra RT point would be awarded for 2:00 RT if NF points are also scored. Which is an incentive to ride one more minute than currently.

Agreed that there is too much top stalling now. Why give more incentives? Even though folk is about control, scoring should be about action. And with or without a RT point, there is a reward for riding: opportunity to score NF or pins, shortening the match, tiring bottom, etc. (which is why there is so much top stalling).
Ok. I guess we have different opinions on "riding too long". I don't mind watching 2 minutes over the course of a match provided turns are at least attempted, not just busy work.

Seems like too many guys just accumulate several minutes of riding time without making a real attempt at a turn. I'm all for whatever rule stops that. Whether it be getting rid of riding time point, aggressive calling of stalling on top, etc.
 
Mostly agree that rules don’t need changing here—back points should be highly prized. I might be ok with making a major 10+ differential and go back to requiring a turn for a 15 pt TF. I’d have to see how it changes match tactics to be sure, though. Still think we need rule-change test platforms (tournaments?) as a first step to any crazy but potentially viable idea.
How about the extra matches? They don't count anyway. Some of the smaller opens might be a good place as well, provided they're well run.
 
Excellent comments. WRT Spencer, he's so fricking successful at turning his opponents yet during his tenure at Iowa I can't think of one Hawk wrestler who seemed to attempt to copy his techniques. I mean I know his strength has to be a part of it, and I'm sure many don't and won't have the skill set no matter how hard they try, but I thought I'd at least see some of them trying to emulate the Spencer turn. Going to hate seeing him graduate and really hope that his knees hold up so we can watch him for many years to come on the US team. Can't wait to see him and Gilman going after it.
No one has ever seen him do one in practice.

Just doggin ya Nash, how ya been? You got anything worth bettin on this year?
 
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Ok. I guess we have different opinions on "riding too long". I don't mind watching 2 minutes over the course of a match provided turns are at least attempted, not just busy work.

Seems like too many guys just accumulate several minutes of riding time without making a real attempt at a turn. I'm all for whatever rule stops that. Whether it be getting rid of riding time point, aggressive calling of stalling on top, etc.
We agree -- I'm OK with watching riding with legitimate intent to turn, even if it doesn't result in swipes. Riding for the sake of riding, not so much.

Incentives matter. That's all.
 
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No one has ever seen him do one in practice.

Just doggin ya Nash, how ya been? You got anything worth bettin on this year?
My friend, I'll definitely be betting with you fellas come B10s and NCAAs. I think Kerk now has Cass' number but I'll still be betting for Big Tony and pretty much any other competitive Hawk vs Lion matches, not that we have as many as in past years, but who knows what things will look like come March. Your young guns are looking really good right now.

BTW, life is good! Glad we're finally in the meat of the wrestling tournament, only wish we we're more competitive. This year sadly the only fight will be for 2nd place.
 
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Opens up a can of worms of judgment. When does the cut = a release that does not score?

Seems likely that bottom would do all of the work to get free, and gets pushed away to avoid giving up the point. Ref gives the E1? Challenged. Ref doesn't give the E1? Challenged.

There would need to be some clear-cut definition of what release does not count as E1. Not sure there is an easily definable situation other than optional starts.
Yeah, in this case, I think it would have to be something that's only a half-solution to avoid the judgment/ambiguity, like when the top man chooses the free release on a restart, it's not a point, but that doesn't help someone trying to catch and release quickly without riding the guy out of bound.
 
I think we can all agree, a new start gives the bottom wrestler a fresh chance that is often rewarded with an escape.

It frustrates me when one of our guys is pounding on a kid who is doing nothing and rather than issue a stall warning the ref issues a restart. Essentially a gift to the bottom wrestler, especially in an even match.

However, I have a bias and a certain mind set when watching this, as our guys are usually the top wrestler. Maybe just maybe this is where multiple problems are solved. If like free, when the top guy isn't aggressively working for a turn the action is stopped within say 30 seconds (i.e. admittedly longer than free) and restarted.

This would make obtaining riding time more difficult, generate more escapes and neutral game, but most importantly make working for back points the imperative for the top rider.

Whatever the solution, I do like the concept of preserving and rewarding riding time, and do not want to lose the oppotunity to enjoy the demonstration of skill and domination that somone like Zain brought to the table.
 
What about the idea that after 30 seconds of riding the match is stopped and you are put back in neutral with no escape point given similar to freestyle. If you get a turn in that 30 second period then the 30 sec clock restarts. This gives incentive to turn and also helps eliminate the problem of escape points being given for not really doing anything. Riding time is still included and guys that get multiple tds and are good on top should still get that point regularly. Top stalling is somewhat limited with the 30 seconds and ideally it creates more action on the mat and we get more neutral wrestling.
 
What about the idea that after 30 seconds of riding the match is stopped and you are put back in neutral with no escape point given similar to freestyle. If you get a turn in that 30 second period then the 30 sec clock restarts. This gives incentive to turn and also helps eliminate the problem of escape points being given for not really doing anything. Riding time is still included and guys that get multiple tds and are good on top should still get that point regularly. Top stalling is somewhat limited with the 30 seconds and ideally it creates more action on the mat and we get more neutral wrestling.
I understand where you are going, but that brings folk too close to freestyle for my taste.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing that. Especially if they knocked a point off of the tech if no NF earned.

Would a fall be 7 points then?
I'd have a fall and a tech fall both be worth 6 points. If your dominance stops a match early you should get max points plus it will take the incentive for a guy to just not get pinned away.
 
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I like after a TD, 30 seconds of RT and a stoppage the top man can release with no escape point.

I also wouldn't mind a 5 point "superior" decision for a 13-16 point win and a 17+ point tech fall for 6 points.
 
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