as the gender of their choice.
1980's East German shot put team wondering "WTF?" (TIC - hat tip to David Burge)
1980's East German shot put team wondering "WTF?" (TIC - hat tip to David Burge)
Olympics: trans athletes, without surgery, can compete
- Thread starter Obliviax
- Start date
The East German women’s teams just took doping to a ridiculous level, inasmuch as the testosterone levels essentially rose to the level of a mans and they started to resemble men. I don’t think they were trans. I might be mistaken.
A
anon_1eeb2b426hv3y
Guest
It will be interesting when men begin winning both men's and women's gold medals in track and other sports.
Will make the move to my preferred "open" division and "women's" division.
LdN
well, we are moving to an area where men and women are considered the same. This is the basis for things like eliminating gender specific bathrooms, constructs in title IX and the ERA constitutional amendment.
At some point, it comes down to a simple question: Are men and women different? If they are not, we don't need teams for girls and equal participation. Just have a sport and let men and women compete. If the they are different, what are the differences and what guidelines need to be put in place? Then, you've got the edge cases like Trans, who's rights need to be considered as well. I am not smart enough to make the final calls but ut us clear that this could end up being quite a mess.
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Finally, something to add some entertainment value to the boring old Olympics.
Should be hangers and non-hangers if they don’t like being called men or women
face value it sounds like great news. The cynic in me would want to see the count difference between the ones who transition either direction and does it map with the percentages of the general public. I'm sure it will swing greater in the one direction.
It is much more simple than that.
We have women's and men's sports because in 99.99999% of cases men are better at sports than women.
If that was not the case there would be no need for women's athletics.
So, back to my point... there will soon be an open division (which is effectively what we already have but call "mens") and then a women's division.
Despite the feel good stories we see on TV where the H.S. girl is told she can't play with the boys, if a woman can play a sport better than a man she will be invited to the varsity team to compete. Coaches are paid to win.
In your article the rules aren't even. A woman can move freely a man has to be taking hormones.
"Now, surgery will no longer be required, with female-to-male transgender athletes eligible to take part in men’s competitions “without restriction”.
Meanwhile, male-to-female transgender athletes will need to demonstrate that their testosterone level has been below a certain cutoff point for at least one year before their first competition."
LdN
I agree....but at one point in our nation's history, we called this "separate but equal".
Now Bruce Jenner can come back and win another gold.
They eliminated gender specific bathrooms at my former office which was just a satellite office, about 6 attorneys and 8 support staff. Of course their idea of that was to eliminate the men's room and make it gender neutral, keep one of the previous bathrooms that was gender neutral as gender neutral, and women still got to keep one bathroom just to themselves.....Funny how that works
Prior to the transgender move, this was getting a lot of traction...
https://www.citylab.com/equity/2014...ess-for-women-is-a-global-design-flaw/382418/
I imagine reconciling all of these various applications of "equal" is difficult for companies.
LdN
In a small office, why are their man and women's bathrooms at all? If the bathrooms are private, and not shared (meaning, you walk in and lock the door behind you) ? I find fast food places will have two private bathrooms marked men and women. There will be a line at one, while there is nobody in the other bathroom. Perhaps there is a law that there needs to be a separate room for women? I know that there used to be a law in Ohio that the separate womans room needed to be secured (women in an office building had a combination lock and the public people didn't have it). The second issue was that the woman's room had to have a chair, of some type, to address monthly tooling challenges.
It's gonna get real interesting when a 125kg male freestyle wrestler identifies as a 48kg female wrestler. No I'm not serious.
I identify myself as a 7 foot NBA player...so they have to let me play, right?
My big issue with male to female no matter what their testosterone level is down to is that at some point they had a penis and testosterone where they were able to create muscle mass superior to any female in their lifetime. It's a violation of women's rights. Nobody's rights should come at the expense of another's and I think that's what this ruling is.
Now Bruce Jenner can come back and win another gold.
Bruce Jenner's 400 meter time in the 1976 Olympics, when he did 10 events over two days, is still faster than any woman has ever run 400 meters.
Something has to give. Being nice to trans people is fine but the simple reality is that a man that transitions to a woman has an advantage over women in athletic competitions. Letting them compete with non-trans women defeats the purpose of having a separate category for women.
There has already been some of this in Women's track in the Olympics; Caster Semenya from South Africa won gold in 2012 and 2016 in the Women's 800m despite controversy about her gender.
Generally speaking, larger lung capacity too. So even if you were to bring down T levels and bring up estrogen levels there is a specific advantage that can't be adjusted. Especially where the weight/size of the athlete isn't equally regulated, mostly endurance sports, like marathon, biathlon, triathlon, cross country skiing, etc.
I think so? I don't know right from left, so I'm probably not the right person to ask.
Exactly right LdN. I remember back in the early 80's a girl tried out for her high school football team. Not only was she good enough to make the team, she ended up being the starting quarterback! And contrary to what some might think, she wasn't some frumpy big ugly girl either, because her classmates also voted her homecoming queen.
The problem in this is that a mature skeleton doesn't change after switching hormones. If on estrogen long enough the muscle mass and fat distribution would change to female, but all of the other advantages, much more than mere lung capacity, would remain -- larger hands and feet, narrow hips, wider shoulders, taller, etc. -- all of the things needed for effective "hunting" instead of "nesting" / child rearing.
This is a ridiculous development that, if allowed to follow its course, will end women's athletics. Like so many issues that face governing bodies, the solutions to one problem merely create other problems that are often worse.
This is a ridiculous development that, if allowed to follow its course, will end women's athletics. Like so many issues that face governing bodies, the solutions to one problem merely create other problems that are often worse.
I heard he plays from the red tees now when playing golf. Dude is 6-3. Probably has a wedge or drives every green.Now Bruce Jenner can come back and win another gold.
No, I think it's a good thing to have women's sports. If I understand correctly, the purpose of women's sports is to provide places for women to compete against other women. Does this change if "gender" becomes a more fluid concept? That's why I asked the question.
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The transgender competing vs women is a solid stomp on women’s rights. Title 9 and everything done previously to allow women opportunities to compete is being shit on by these rulings. The PC attempts are clearly coming full circle. I’m sure some prominent women will eventually protest this and they’ll be right.
Martina Navratilova recently made a comment on this, and got all sorts of hate from the social justice warriors for it. Interesting, since she is a feminist hero and a gay rights pioneer.
As a species, humans exhibit sexual dimorphism. Males and females have quantifiable morphological differences resulting from their genotypes. Humans are certainly not alone in this regard.
You can create social opprobrium directed against people for saying 2+2=5. You can even enact laws making it illegal to say 2+2=5 and punishing people who say it.
But in the end, 2+2 still equals 5.
You can create social opprobrium directed against people for saying 2+2=5. You can even enact laws making it illegal to say 2+2=5 and punishing people who say it.
But in the end, 2+2 still equals 5.
LOL..I had no idea this was really happening when I said any dude who can dunk a basketball can ID as trans and get a full ride.
We have entered a time when we can deny what is truly undeniable.
I hadn't opened this thread until after I saw the link below in my workout website just this morning. (I usually avoid political discussions because they never lead anywhere.)
From T-Nation's Dani Shugart:
https://www.t-nation.com/opinion/trans-athletes-the-death-of-womens-sports
From T-Nation's Dani Shugart:
https://www.t-nation.com/opinion/trans-athletes-the-death-of-womens-sports
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