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Once JG had control of both legs, head & upper-body above waist & a stacking pin position...

Franklin_Restores_TheTradition

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Oct 25, 2015
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....TD should have been awarded as Heil's crotch-lock was not, and had no chance of, improving his position. Heil having a "crotch-lock" is not relevant once JG establishes control of both of Heil's legs, head & upper-body free and has Heil in a clear pinning position (and is holding him there) -- anyone else have thoughts on this??? The "crotch-lock" is to be ignored if the other wrestler has gained "control" (as defined by both legs, head & upper-body above waist and holding opponent in a pinning position) and the "defensive wrestler's" crotch-lock (or waist-lock) is not, and cannot, improve their position. Once Jimmy hooked Heil's right leg with his own right leg (the side the crotch-lock was on), it negated any chance of a "crotch-lift" by Heil doing anything except "tightening" the pinnin stack as all he was doing was drawing Jimmy's hips farther forward onto his chest/shoulders AND his own right leg higher & further forward on the "stack", making it "tighter" and further flattening himself (i.e., Heil) out. Once Heil's "crotch-lock" became completely neutralized and could not improve his position (quite the opposite was true in fact) and JG had control of both legs holding Heil in a clear "pinning position", the TD should have been awarded by rule - JG's "control" was clearly demonstrated by the fact that he held Heil in that pinning position for over 20 seconds and until the completion of the period. The referee's interpretation that Heil's "crotch-lock" was preventing "control" and a TD (and therefore a NF count) as it had not been neutralized via clear "control" of both legs and body position (i.e., Heil could still "improve his position" using it) is a specious interpretation under clear Rule Interpretations - thoughts???
 
I think it's clear that the ref really botched this match. Heil was pinned more than once in that match. However, worst case scenario is that Jimmy had a TD in the second and NF. He should have had a TD and NF in the third as well if they aren't going to call an obvious pin a pin.

If they continue to let Heil crotch lock his opponents and roll onto his back like he did in that match nobody will take him down. Every other guy is going to bail on that crotch lock because if they don't they get pinned. For some reason this guy let Heil pin himself over and over to avoid a TD.
 
I agree...my argument is a pin is a pin..and heil was pinned multiple times. My thoughts if I start to argue for a takedown, we forget about the pin. Heil was pinned.
 
I think it's clear that the ref really botched this match. Heil was pinned more than once in that match. However, worst case scenario is that Jimmy had a TD in the second and NF. He should have had a TD and NF in the third as well if they aren't going to call an obvious pin a pin.

If they continue to let Heil crotch lock his opponents and roll onto his back like he did in that match nobody will take him down. Every other guy is going to bail on that crotch lock because if they don't they get pinned. For some reason this guy let Heil pin himself over and over to avoid a TD.

True....but one of the points I was trying to make is that the defensive wrestler in this situation (i.e., one attempting to prevent TD via crotch-lock or waist-lock) always gives up the position as soon as the ref awards the TD (i.e., when other wrestler gains control of both legs with head above waist), because the wrestler defending the TD is extremely vulnerable to getting "stacked in this position and giving up NF points once the TD is called, so.....they immediately let go of the crotch-lock (or waist-lock) in this situation once the ref awards the TD and "belly out" to avoid getting easily "stacked" via "controlling wrestler" simply lifting their legs while rocking forward and giving up NF points. IOW, take a look at the video in these situations, it is ALWAYS the official calling the TD upon control of both legs that motivates the release of the crotch-lock and the defending wrestler to "belly-out" (the reason is quite simple to understand - once the defending wrestler sees the TD is granted, they're risking giving up NF exposure points via a very easy "stack" unless the defending wrestler releases the crotch-lock and immediately bellies-out, so.....as soon as they see the TD awarded, they release and immeidately twist their body to belly-out and avoid the easy stack).

Heil even said it in his interview statement when asked the question - he originally engaged the crotch-lock looking for a STALEMATE. He was hoping the the ref would call a "stalemate" even when he was stacked he said......he then said he was just happy time ran out because he felt like he couldn't move an inch either direction without getting called pinned.....etc... Think about how long the ref allowed Jimmy to hold Heil in a Stacked Position both times - this absolutely BELIES the ref's supposed belief that this was a "stalemate" and JG had not gotten the TD!!! If the ref really believed it was a "stalemate" and JG wasn't "controlling" both legs and the "Pinning Position" (i.e., an offensive "stack" being driven by JG's control -- IOW, belief that Heil's crotch-lock/crotch-lift was partially controlling the situation and could result in Heil improving his position), the ref would have blown his whistle and ruled a "stalemate" much sooner and would not let JG continue for the entire rest of both the 2nd and 3rd periods until the horn sounded!!! The official's actions (letting it continue for the remainder of both periods for a prolonged period of time) demonstrate how disingenuous he is in not awarding the TD and claiming that the two were in a "stalemated" position (which they weren't as I demonstrated under the clear Rule Interpretations WITH PICTURES above for the given situation - i.e., one wrestler has complete control of both legs and is fully above the waist of the other wrestler who has a crotch-lock on that is doing nothing except further pinning themselves by lifting on it [i.e., a "crotch-lift"] and is ABSOLUTELY UNEQUIVOCALLY not "improving their position" -- again, especially when the crotch-lock / crotch-lift is, IN FACT, doing the diametric opposite and resulting in the defending wrestler "pinning themselves.).

It was Hagerty's fault that Heil did not give up the crotch-lock even while pinning himself as Hagerty failed to call the TD as he is SUPPOSED TO DO IN THIS SITUATION. Had Hagerty called the TD under the rules, Heil would have immediately let go of the crotch-lock and attempted to bridge-out, turn and belly-out. Not only that, Hagerty REWARDING the bull$hit in the 2nd Period resulted in Heil doing the exact same thing in the 3rd Period!!! Heil lets go of the crotch-lock immediately, if Hagerty makes the correct call.
 
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I think it's clear that the ref really botched this match. Heil was pinned more than once in that match. However, worst case scenario is that Jimmy had a TD in the second and NF. He should have had a TD and NF in the third as well if they aren't going to call an obvious pin a pin.

If they continue to let Heil crotch lock his opponents and roll onto his back like he did in that match nobody will take him down. Every other guy is going to bail on that crotch lock because if they don't they get pinned. For some reason this guy let Heil pin himself over and over to avoid a TD.

That is also one of my points.... No wrestler is going to let go of a crtoch-lock or waist-lock when the ref is telling them that they are in a STALEMATED POSITION, because they don't give up NF points without the other wrestler being awarded TD. This is precisely why you see wrestlers hang onto the crotch-lock until the ref grants the TD (i.e., other wrestler gains control of both legs with head above waist) and then immediately relinguish it upon granting of the TD and "bellying out". So it is indisputable that Hagerty encouraged Heil to maintain the crotch-lock to "stalemate" the TD despite JG clearly having the TD under the rules given the situation. Futhermore, Hagerty's absurd officiating not only encouraged Heil to maintain the crotch-lock as a useful "stalemate" to the TD (which it clearly wasn't under the rules and the given situation), he then further encouraged Heil to PIN HIMSELF via the crotch-lift as a supposed "methodology" to avoid "losing" when doing it was phucking pinning himself, which is the exact equivalent of scratching the 8-ball or scratching on the 8-ball in pool......i.e., you LOSE, not win, when you do it!!!
 
Somebody has you in something called a crotch lock, but you are on top and they can't move.........yeah, I would call that control.

Nolf just took Smith down again.......:rolleyes:
 
I think it's clear that the ref really botched this match. Heil was pinned more than once in that match. However, worst case scenario is that Jimmy had a TD in the second and NF. He should have had a TD and NF in the third as well if they aren't going to call an obvious pin a pin.

If they continue to let Heil crotch lock his opponents and roll onto his back like he did in that match nobody will take him down. Every other guy is going to bail on that crotch lock because if they don't they get pinned. For some reason this guy let Heil pin himself over and over to avoid a TD.

A TD that Heil clearly didn't even avoid under the actual rules [see situation and picture #19 under "Control (Takedowns/Reversals)" - HIT THIS LINK]. Just comical officiating all around and the type of thing that gives Folk a bad name in the wrestling world.
 
Anyone see an explanation or comment from the ref? What I saw that was interesting is how engaged the 2nd ref was engaged with hagerty.
In jimmy's and zain's match. I am Not a mind reader, but it looked like he was explaining something to hagerty and then hagerty doing a lot of his own explaining. Very odd behavior from a ref at critical times.
 
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Jimmy hooking Heil's right leg with his own right leg, whille controlling the other leg with both hands to acccomplish the "split" he was using to stack Heil should have triggered ref to call TD imho. Heil had the crotch-lock at the top of JG's right leg, so once Jimmy hooked his right leg with his own right leg, it effectively made Heil's crotch-lock a weapon against himself much in the same way a wrestler who has a leg is turned into a weapon against themselves in a "Spladle". Once the Spladling wrestler "rolls-through" to the mat and has his opponent in the pinning position with clear control of both legs - it is a TD regardless of whether the other wrestler continues to hang onto the Spladling wrestler's leg or not (this is the leg used to "hook" opponent's other leg).

Again, the only thing Heil pulling on the crotch-lock (i.e., a crotch-lift) was doing was making the Stack "tighter" because Jimmy had Heil's right leg hooked with the same leg that Heil was pulling on (I.e., drawing "the stack" higher into the air, pulling Jimmy's hips further forward onto his upper chest & Shoulders and making Heil "flatter"). Still say the TD should have been called under the "Control Rules" for a takedown. JG's pinning combination met every rule for a TD under the Control interpretations (i.e., control of both legs, pinning position, opponent's stalemating crotch-lock neutralized and doing nothing to prevent control with no possibility of improving the opponent's position, etc..).

I think the situation is worthy of a published "interpretation" because I have seen officials ignore the "Control" rules before in regards to a "crotch-lock" or "waist-lock" -- once the other wrestler has full control of both legs, the official is supposed to ascertain whether the crotch-lock or waist-lock is doing anything to prevent "control" or if it has any potential to improve the wrestler's position.....if it is doing nothing to prevent "control" (worse in this case, it was actually helping JG and Heil was pinning himself by pulling on it) and has no hope of improving the "defensive wrestler's" position, it is supposed to be ignored and the TD awarded (which woulld have also triggered NF points for Jimmy - it also would have almost certainly precipitated Heil to let go of crotch-lock and attempt to bridge-out and turn over rather than absurdly claiming that pinning himself was a means to avoid defeat!).

Hagerty's absurd interpretation of both the TD "control" rules/interpretations and "fall" definition cost JG this match, not once but multiple times -- if he's one of the best in the business and a "HOF-worthy" Folkstyle Official, something should be published that he got it wrong on "interpretation" in a couple different ways (i.e., not granting a TD and therefore costing JG a ton of points at the least due to no TD or NF points), why he got it wrong and how it should have been called (i.e., when the TD should have been called).

Otherwise, other officials will look at this and it will enable them, if not outright encourage them, to base their future decisions simply on whether the "defensive wrestler" has maintained his defensive "crotch-lock" in an attempt to prevent the TD AND THAT IS NOT THE RULE as the OTHER WRESTLER is also permitted to IMPROVE THEIR POSITION to negate the "crotch-lock" as JG did in this instance. Simply focusing on whether the crotch-lock was engaged to the EXCLUSION of all else was a woefully WRONG INTERPRETATION of the clear Control rules and interpretations that applied imho and this situation (especially the potential importance of it in a fairly high-profile dual the "NWCA NDS Championship Dual" - i.e., #1 v #2) deserves a statement one-way or the other -- Cael & Staff clearly VEHEMENTLY disagreed with the way it was called and some clarification should be supplied as to who was correct so other officials don't apply the same "singurlarly focused" wrong interpretation (i.e., simply focusing on whether the crotch-lock was engaged which is clearly not the only criteria in the rulebook for this situation in regards to "control").
 
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PSU bench was cautioned after the discussion w/Hagerty - they objected vehemently and rightfully. An opinion by the ref or ref's rules body should say something to avoid this mistake in the future.
 
PSU bench was cautioned after the discussion w/Hagerty - they objected vehemently and rightfully. An opinion by the ref or ref's rules body should say something to avoid this mistake in the future.

Here is a video of an IDENTICAL situation called correctly in one of Mega's matches (see first TD shown):



Also note that Edelen (IL), Nico's opponent, let go of the useless "crotch-lock" as soon as the Official CORRECTLY awarded the TD upon control to avoid being easily stacked (also note the criteria the official used to determine "control" despite the crotch-lock -- once Nico gained control of both legs and popped his head above Edelen's waist!). People who keep claiming the "crotch-lock" prevents the awarding of a TD are full of $hit and don't know what they are talking about in regards to the actual rules for "Control" in regards to a TD or Reverse as graphic or picture "Interpretations" issued by governing rules-bodies on Folk have unanimously stated the diametric opposite (i.e., a crotch-lock or waist-lock does not prevent a TD once the other wrestler has exhibited "control" by controlling both legs and establishing their head & upper-body above the waist of their opponent).
 
I don't know how you guys keep up with Franklin Restores. He is like a run on sentence that never ends and constantly is on repeat.
 
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I know that a fall can not be reviewed..But could Cael have had the TD reviewed? guy is on his back for 20 seconds or longer ---seems to be control to me--the TD would have won it for Jimmy
 
I know that a fall can not be reviewed..But could Cael have had the TD reviewed? guy is on his back for 20 seconds or longer ---seems to be control to me--the TD would have won it for Jimmy

Thought the 2nd Period situation was definitely a TD. 3rd Period was more difficult to say because I don't think Jimmy ever cleared his head from between Heil's legs (i.e., he was reaching up and pinning Heil's leg to his neck by grabbing Heil's ankle during the stack). I think it still qualified as controlling both legs in a "split" that he was using to "stack" Heil, especially given that he had Heil's opposite leg hooked with his own leg that Heil had crotch-lock on (i.e., exhibiting control of the pinning combination - Heil's crotch-lock was neutralized once Jimmy used that leg to "hook" Heil's leg - note this is exactly what Mega does in video - because essentially Heil pulling on the crotch-lock while leg is hooking Heil's leg is only serving to make the Stack Move tighter and Heil flatter).
 
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4,286 words in 17 posts. gotta be some kind of record.
 
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