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OT: Baseball fans - Joey Votto: future Hall-of-Famer or not?

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michnittlion

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Sep 3, 2003
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I'm a bit biased as a Reds fan. Wonder about the opinion of other MLB fans. Does Joey have a legitimate shot at the Hall of Fame?

He is absolutely on-fire right now. He is having a great season here in 2017 at age 33, following up a 2nd-half in 2016 where he hit over .400 with an OPS of 1.158. His OPS+ (which does normalize for stadium played in: GABP is a hitter's ballpark, of course) is leading the NL for a 2nd straight year.

Of course - he's playing for an absolutely lousy ball team right now. The Reds haven't won a playoff series in Joey's time in Cincinnati.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vottojo01.shtml
 
michnittlion said:
I'm a bit biased as a Reds fan. Wonder about the opinion of other MLB fans. Does Joey have a legitimate shot at the Hall of Fame?

He is absolutely on-fire right now. He is having a great season here in 2017 at age 33, following up a 2nd-half in 2016 where he hit over .400 with an OPS of 1.158. His OPS+ (which does normalize for stadium played in: GABP is a hitter's ballpark, of course) is leading the NL for a 2nd straight year.
Way to soon to even think about the HOF.
Of course - he's playing for an absolutely lousy ball team right now. The Reds haven't won a playoff series in Joey's time in Cincinnati.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vottojo01.shtml
Click to expand...
 
michnittlion said:
I'm a bit biased as a Reds fan. Wonder about the opinion of other MLB fans. Does Joey have a legitimate shot at the Hall of Fame?

He is absolutely on-fire right now. He is having a great season here in 2017 at age 33, following up a 2nd-half in 2016 where he hit over .400 with an OPS of 1.158. His OPS+ (which does normalize for stadium played in: GABP is a hitter's ballpark, of course) is leading the NL for a 2nd straight year.

Of course - he's playing for an absolutely lousy ball team right now. The Reds haven't won a playoff series in Joey's time in Cincinnati.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vottojo01.shtml
Click to expand...
Way to soon to even think about the HOF.
 
michnittlion said:
I'm a bit biased as a Reds fan. Wonder about the opinion of other MLB fans. Does Joey have a legitimate shot at the Hall of Fame?

He is absolutely on-fire right now. He is having a great season here in 2017 at age 33, following up a 2nd-half in 2016 where he hit over .400 with an OPS of 1.158. His OPS+ (which does normalize for stadium played in: GABP is a hitter's ballpark, of course) is leading the NL for a 2nd straight year.

Of course - he's playing for an absolutely lousy ball team right now. The Reds haven't won a playoff series in Joey's time in Cincinnati.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vottojo01.shtml
Click to expand...
Yes.
 
The Canadian HOF now. We will see if the next five years put him in Cooperstown.
I hope so. He is fun to watch and doesn't let being on bad teams drag him now.
 
As others said, lets see what he does the next five years. If he continues to play well and ends up with an MVP, 2300 hits, 350 HRs, a +.300 avg, +.400 OBP and +.900 OPS for his career (and played great D at first), then yes. If something happened tomorrow and he could never play again, no. Work left to be done.
 
wbcincy said:
As others said, lets see what he does the next five years. If he continues to play well and ends up with an MVP, 2300 hits, 350 HRs, a +.300 avg, +.400 OBP and +.900 OPS for his career (and played great D at first), then yes. If something happened tomorrow and he could never play again, no. Work left to be done.
Click to expand...

Just saw he has a negative defensive WAR for his career...,certainly not what I expected from what I'd seen of him.
 
wbcincy said:
Just saw he has a negative defensive WAR for his career...,certainly not what I expected from what I'd seen of him.
Click to expand...

Even most sabermeticians would tell you the advanced stats on defense are not totally reliable.

Some seasons Trout has a negative DWar and he is fantastic in CF

3 more years of similar production and Votto is in the HOF if I had a vote
 
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He is a future of hall of fame. Yes, I think so...unless he just totally falls off. A few more good years and I think so.
 
Possibly, but a guy who would have a lengthy wait when eligible in my opinion. Somewhat similar comparison would be Edgar Martinez who is still waiting. Votto somewhat projects to Edgar numbers. Votto is .313 career BA, Edgar was .312. Probable that Votto's BA declines a bit as he gets older. Votto projects into similar career hits numbers and home runs although Votto seems to be trending towards a little better power stats.

Obviously, Edgar was a DH but offensively, they will be in the same ballpark.

The thing that hurts is lack of post season play for Votto.

Nice player but I think he has a long wait when eligible.
 
Joey is 33 years old and only has 1533 hits and 252 home runs. He has not led his team to any significant post season win. He has no chance to be in the Hall of Fame. He is an above average player, not a great player.
 
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Good player, but in this offensive age I don't see anything that is HOF worthy. Al Oliver (H-2,743, HR-219, RBI-1329) and Dave Parker (H-2,712, HR-33, RBI-1,493) aren't getting a sniff. He would have to play another 8 years at his career 162 game average production to reach HOF numbers and I don't see that happening.
 
LemonEars said:
Joey is 33 years old and only has 1533 hits and 252 home runs. He has not led his team to any significant post season win. He has no chance to be in the Hall of Fame. He is an above average player, not a great player.
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So he should seek a trade to the Yankees or Dodgers so he plays more in the postseason? That would make him a better player? That's a ridiculous argument for a baseball player.
 
Connorpozlee said:
So he should seek a trade to the Yankees or Dodgers so he plays more in the postseason? That would make him a better player? That's a ridiculous argument for a baseball player.
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Doesn't seem fair but that is how it works. Do you think that Derick Jeter was better than Ernie Banks? I don't. What about Reggie Jackson being better than Billy Williams? I think Billy was better. The Hall of Fame voters take post season heroics into account for better or for worse.

In any event Joey Votto doesn't have the numbers to be in the Hall of Fame no matter where he played.
 
LemonEars said:
Doesn't seem fair but that is how it works. Do you think that Derick Jeter was better than Ernie Banks? I don't. What about Reggie Jackson being better than Billy Williams? I think Billy was better. The Hall of Fame voters take post season heroics into account for better or for worse.

In any event Joey Votto doesn't have the numbers to be in the Hall of Fame no matter where he played.
Click to expand...

You didn't originally say that voters emphasize postseason play. You presented it as your own opinion. I think postseason should be used to enhance a player's resume, but lack of playing in the postseason should not be used against a player in any way.
 
Still in State College said:
Good player, but in this offensive age I don't see anything that is HOF worthy. Al Oliver (H-2,743, HR-219, RBI-1329) and Dave Parker (H-2,712, HR-33, RBI-1,493) aren't getting a sniff. He would have to play another 8 years at his career 162 game average production to reach HOF numbers and I don't see that happening.
Click to expand...

Al Oliver - 46.4 career Offensive WAR in 9,778 Plate App
Dave Parker - 41.0 career Offensive WAR in 10,184 Plate App
Joey Votto - 49.6 career Offensive WAR in 5,932 Plate App

he's already had a better career than either of those guys.
 
Yeah Votto is a player you have to look at more than just hits, HRs and RBIs. He's not really a power hitter. He's a high OBP / batting average guy with some pretty decent pop in his bat. He was a late bloomer and didn't reach the big leagues until a fairly late age so he has a lot of work left to do at age 33 but if he keeps putting up OPS numbers like he does I think he can reach HoF status.
 
Ohio_Pirate said:
Yeah Votto is a player you have to look at more than just hits, HRs and RBIs. He's not really a power hitter. He's a high OBP / batting average guy with some pretty decent pop in his bat. He was a late bloomer and didn't reach the big leagues until a fairly late age so he has a lot of work left to do at age 33 but if he keeps putting up OPS numbers like he does I think he can reach HoF status.
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yep. he has the 12th highest career OB% in baseball history

i agree, if his career ended tomorrow, hes not in, but 3 more years of doing what he's been doing and he's in
 
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PSUcup1 said:
Al Oliver - 46.4 career Offensive WAR in 9,778 Plate App
Dave Parker - 41.0 career Offensive WAR in 10,184 Plate App
Joey Votto - 49.6 career Offensive WAR in 5,932 Plate App

he's already had a better career than either of those guys.
Click to expand...
I haven't seen advanced metrics determine HOF status yet, and those guys aren't getting a sniff for the hall.
 
Connorpozlee said:
So he should seek a trade to the Yankees or Dodgers so he plays more in the postseason? That would make him a better player? That's a ridiculous argument for a baseball player.
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Call it whatever you want but it makes a big difference. If and when Schilling gets the call, the lead in his story will be his post season accomplishments. Performing well in the post season makes borderline players HOF'ers.
 
mrtailgate said:
Call it whatever you want but it makes a big difference. If and when Schilling gets the call, the lead in his story will be his post season accomplishments. Performing well in the post season makes borderline players HOF'ers.
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No doubt. But playing in a pisspoor orginaztion shouldn't be held against a player.
 
Connorpozlee said:
No doubt. But playing in a pisspoor orginaztion shouldn't be held against a player.
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The Reds should have won it all in 2012. 2nd best record in baseball (Nats were 1 game better). I thought they were baseball's best.

But lost in the 2012 NLDS to San Francisco. I will NEVER forgive Dusty Baker for keeping Mat Latos in to pitch to Buster Posey.

Joey did fairly well in that series, FWIW.
 
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michnittlion said:
The Reds should have won it all in 2012. 2nd best record in baseball (Nats were 1 game better). I thought they were baseball's best.

But lost in the 2012 NLDS to San Francisco. I will NEVER forgive Dusty Baker for keeping Mat Latos in to pitch to Buster Posey.

Joey did fairly well in that series, FWIW.
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They had a nice little run during that time. Now I watch the games, see them go up 2-0, go to the garage to grab a beer, come back and the starting pitcher has given up 8 runs. I try to only watch them batting st this point. It's just brutal.
 
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Bump - Votto has reached base multiple times in 20 consecutive games. 1 game away from tying the MLB record (Ted Williams at 21).
 
wbcincy said:
As others said, lets see what he does the next five years. If he continues to play well and ends up with an MVP, 2300 hits, 350 HRs, a +.300 avg, +.400 OBP and +.900 OPS for his career (and played great D at first), then yes. If something happened tomorrow and he could never play again, no. Work left to be done.
Click to expand...

Those are nice stats, but not Hall of Fame. He won't get in.
 
wbcincy said:
If those are his final stats, he's an absolute lock to get in.
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I forgot that it became the hall of good. 2300 hits and 350 homers should not get you in. I guess you could compare him to Bagwell, but Bagwell shouldn't be in either.

But he won't get those stats. I doubt he will keep it up till he's 38, and he blew it by sucking for three years 2012-2014.
 
dbsteel said:
I forgot that it became the hall of good. 2300 hits and 350 homers should not get you in. I guess you could compare him to Bagwell, but Bagwell shouldn't be in either.

But he won't get those stats. I doubt he will keep it up till he's 38, and he blew it by sucking for three years 2012-2014.
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In one of those seasons that he sucked he only played 60 or so games, playing most of them on a bum knee. Missed the rest with the knee problem. The other two seasons that he sucked he led the league in on base percentage, one year at .474.
 
It will be interesting to see when sabremetrics become the standard for HOF analysis. Hits,HR's and RBI's won't matter. It will be a discussion of a players OPS+, WAR, and BAbip.

I always look at baseball reference where they compare players. Votto is compared with Dmitri Young, Travis Hafner, etc. It is interesting that he does have two HOF comparisons with one being Hack Wilson.
 
https://ramsey.mlblogs.com/what-is-joey-votto-doing-bb55255dbad0

I won’t bore you with all of the statistics that could reasonably explain why Votto is great, instead I’m going to focus in on just one figure that the brilliant folks at Baseball Reference have devised: Offensive Winning Percentage.

You’ve probably heard a baseball fan or two ponder what it’d be like to have nine Babe Ruthsor nine Willie Mays’ on the same team. Well, Baseball Reference has figured out what would happen if a team had nine of that one single great player.

It probably comes as no surprise that if your lineup featured nine Babe Ruths, you’d win nearly 86% of your games (how does a 139–23 record sound?). Ruth is Baseball Reference’s all-time leader in Offensive Winning Percentage.

What might surprise you is that Joey Votto ranks 15th on that list. This means one could rationally infer that Votto is 1 of the 15 most valuable hitters the game has ever had.

Ten of the 14 players who rank ahead of Votto on that list are in the Hall of Fame. Of the other four, two aren’t enshrined due to scandal; one played his final game during Grover Cleveland’s second term and the other is currently collecting his Cooperstown credentials.

So basically, if the Reds fielded a team with nine Joey Vottos in the lineup, their record at the end of a 162-game season would be 125–37. Not bad for a guy with only 83 RBI this year.
 
He will go down as the best pure hitter the Reds ever had. He will be in the Reds HOF immediately. As for Cooperstown, if he stays healthy and gets some protection around him, he will make that trip IMO. His #s are unbelievable. But still has many years to prove it. Go Reds!
 
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