OT-Bumbling Buccos

[psu 83]

I've been a staunch Pirates fan since the 60's and have no delusions of ever seeing contending baseball teams in Pittsburgh again in my lifetime unless the current POS owner sells the franchise to someone that actually cares versus dumping baseball generated revenue into other ventures. For shits and grins I checked on teams stats and found the following: fielding-27/28, pitching-22 and batting 24. It doesn't matter how much talent the franchise acquires as there is no coaching to develop it-when's the last time someone they drafted developed under Pirates guidance? God given talent got/kept Cutch in the majors, Cole got better when he left the Pirates, etc. It's taken Keller how many years to get this far? Let's see how he finishes the year and hopefully can be part of the future pitching staff! Only 1 start for Priester but it seems like he's regressed as he's risen through the system. We have the #1 overall pick in 2021, catcher by trade, playing right field with 3 errors in 20 or so games. They call up their "future" to get experience but is there actually anyone on the staff to help them improve? I don't like anyone losing their jobs but I truly believe Cherington needs to completely overhaul the coaching staff from top to bottom. Thoughts?

 

[JoeLion]

It’s a mess isn’t it? The future is now so I am willing to give the rookies a chance but my God the team seems rudderless. Who is the leader? Cutch? I agree development seems slow and limited. I don’t know what the answers are but change has to start at the top and that is not likely to happen.

 

[LandoComando]

Officially in sole possession of last place in the weak Central after starting 20-8. Impressive.

Gotta love when they call up two of their top prospects only to see one get absolutely crushed in his first start and the other is 0-8 with 7 KS. The future seems bleak. Even Davis has shown very little power.

Also Davis was never going to catch. Not sure why the Bucs pretended otherwise.

 

[Vic Vaselino]

Could be worse, you could be a Browns fan like me.

 

[The Spin Meister]

I've been a staunch Pirates fan since the 60's and have no delusions of ever seeing contending baseball teams in Pittsburgh again in my lifetime unless the current POS owner sells the franchise to someone that actually cares versus dumping baseball generated revenue into other ventures. For shits and grins I checked on teams stats and found the following: fielding-27/28, pitching-22 and batting 24. It doesn't matter how much talent the franchise acquires as there is no coaching to develop it-when's the last time someone they drafted developed under Pirates guidance? God given talent got/kept Cutch in the majors, Cole got better when he left the Pirates, etc. It's taken Keller how many years to get this far? Let's see how he finishes the year and hopefully can be part of the future pitching staff! Only 1 start for Priester but it seems like he's regressed as he's risen through the system. We have the #1 overall pick in 2021, catcher by trade, playing right field with 3 errors in 20 or so games. They call up their "future" to get experience but is there actually anyone on the staff to help them improve? I don't like anyone losing their jobs but I truly believe Cherington needs to completely overhaul the coaching staff from top to bottom. Thoughts?

But Coach Shelton was on the All Star staff! 🤷🏼‍♀️

 

[MrDibbs]

I have witnessed two of the past four games. The term "rudderless" is appropriate.

Saturday night the starter gives up 1 hit in 6 or 7 (I forget) innings. Pitched a great game. No offense to speak of to give this guy a prayer for a victory. This team cannot put 2 or 3 hits together.

Replace starter (pitch count over 110) and the bull pen walks a batter, maybe hits a batter and the brain trust brings in the closer. Got to play Renegade.

He gives up a hard single to right center field. Fielded cleanly, but throw toward home plate misses the cutoff - safe at home, runners move up and the catcher fires to second base. Throw booted and another runner crosses home plate.

3 runs on 2 hits.

I have seen pony league teams play better fundamental baseball than that display Saturday night.

Fireworks were good. Just no fireworks generated by Pirate bats.

Monday night was a Cleveland slugfest.

The aforementioned McCutchen was gifted a double when the Guardian right fielder misplaced a deep fly ball. Clank off the glove. Hometown scorekeeper.

 

[Mufasa94]

I’d agree the whole organization needs a shakeup in coaching staffs. Either their drafting has been way off, or the guys currently in those positions can’t develop the talent. Seeing some pitchers improve after moving on from the Pirates is a hint something has been wrong.

Add in they haven’t been fundamentally sound in decades, and it just exasperates the frustration level of fans.

Yeah, the owner is bad, but they should be able to field a competitive team in cycles not consisting of multiple decades between peaks.

That said, fans should not have had any expectations with the hot start. Nobody on the team had a current track record (Cutch is well past his prime) showing they’d perform anything close to that well for a season.

At least they’ve moved beyond having the #1 overall draft pick and announcing him with the underwhelming hype they think he can become a #3 starter.

 

[LongJakk]

Everyone points out Cole for developing after leaving. I guess he probably did, but his big uptick came with the Astros teaching him how to cheat by using the now banned sticky stuff. That stuff jumped up his spin rates and he went from a good starter to an ace.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Everyone points out Cole for developing after leaving. I guess he probably did, but his big uptick came with the Astros teaching him how to cheat by using the now banned sticky stuff. That stuff jumped up his spin rates and he went from a good starter to an ace.

The reason that Pirate pitchers do better after leaving is because they have better teams behind them. When in Pittsburgh they know they have to pitch a nearly perfect game. They know they will rarely have big leads in games and any run can cost them. They know that the team will make errors, bad choices in where to throw, base running f ups, miss cut off players, screw up fly balls because people are playing out of position.

Because of this they tend to overthrow fastballs, try to place pitches too perfectly, get too cute with batters. Cole would be pitching great until an error….or stupid defensive mistake…..even an umpire missing a pitch. Then he would get so pissed blood would trickle out of his eyes. Getting out of Pittsburgh not only saved his career but saved him from being a totally wrecked homeless man on drugs.

 

[Mufasa94]

Everyone points out Cole for developing after leaving. I guess he probably did, but his big uptick came with the Astros teaching him how to cheat by using the now banned sticky stuff. That stuff jumped up his spin rates and he went from a good starter to an ace.

Besides Cole, there was Morton, Glasgow, and Musgrove who all significantly improved. They all weren’t Astros.

The odd thing is, they’ve been relatively successful finding a closer. If those early 90s teams could have just had someone like that.

 

[RussianEagle]

Besides Cole, there was Morton, Glasgow, and Musgrove who all significantly improved. They all weren’t Astros.

The odd thing is, they’ve been relatively successful finding a closer. If those early 90s teams could have just had someone like that.

That’s been the trend for 30 years. Pitchers becoming stars after the Pirates dumped them.

I remember the Pirates had Jon Lieber, Jason Schmidt, and Esteban Loaiza in their rotation in the late 90s. Then all three became Cy Young contenders after the Bucs dumped them while getting little in return.

 

[LongJakk]

Besides Cole, there was Morton, Glasgow, and Musgrove who all significantly improved. They all weren’t Astros.

Morton also went directly from Bucs to Astros and guess what happened? His spin rate went up and he became a very good pitcher. Glasnow always had the talent. The Bucs screwed him up and made the awful trade including him, Meadows and Baz. Meadows (now with Tigers) hasn't played due to mental health issues. Baz had tommy john last year.

 

[bison13]

A huge part of the Pirates pitching problem was Ray Searage, and his philosophy of throwing two seam fastball‘s to induce ground balls. If you remember, when AJ came over, he didn’t do that, he did tweak his mechanics a little bit, but he knew what got him, all those wins, four seam, fastball, and curveball, not the singer slaughter combination that Searage preached. everybody gave him credit for getting Liriano straightened out and saying that’s what got Pittsburgh into the playoffs, but it was more likely that both Liriano and AJ just needed a change of scenery.

 

[bison13]

I've been a staunch Pirates fan since the 60's and have no delusions of ever seeing contending baseball teams in Pittsburgh again in my lifetime unless the current POS owner sells the franchise to someone that actually cares versus dumping baseball generated revenue into other ventures. For shits and grins I checked on teams stats and found the following: fielding-27/28, pitching-22 and batting 24. It doesn't matter how much talent the franchise acquires as there is no coaching to develop it-when's the last time someone they drafted developed under Pirates guidance? God given talent got/kept Cutch in the majors, Cole got better when he left the Pirates, etc. It's taken Keller how many years to get this far? Let's see how he finishes the year and hopefully can be part of the future pitching staff! Only 1 start for Priester but it seems like he's regressed as he's risen through the system. We have the #1 overall pick in 2021, catcher by trade, playing right field with 3 errors in 20 or so games. They call up their "future" to get experience but is there actually anyone on the staff to help them improve? I don't like anyone losing their jobs but I truly believe Cherington needs to completely overhaul the coaching staff from top to bottom. Thoughts?

They’ve been drafting in the same places for years, and they always bring in Guys off the trash sheep as free agents. They’ve gotten lucky a couple times but the big problem is that all these top 10 draft picks don’t develop into what other teams top draft picks do. Obviously it’s a System wide problem in evaluation and development. They need to hire someone from the rays or the Orioles systems to get what they are doing in play.

 

[MacNit07]

They’ve been drafting in the same places for years, and they always bring in Guys off the trash sheep as free agents. They’ve gotten lucky a couple times but the big problem is that all these top 10 draft picks don’t develop into what other teams top draft picks do. Obviously it’s a System wide problem in evaluation and development. They need to hire someone from the rays or the Orioles systems to get what they are doing in play.

Pirates are the worst professional franchise in Nortn America. Absolutely pathetic!

 

[LandoComando]

Pirates are the worst professional franchise in Nortn America. Absolutely pathetic!

Coyotes might be worse lol but it's close

 

[Mufasa94]

Pirates are the worst professional franchise in Nortn America. Absolutely pathetic!

Such a definitive absolute statement is more hyperbole than reality.

Pirates aren’t really close to the worst for:
- seasons without a championship
- number of championships
- current record
- playoff drought (for what little it means)

This is not intended for feel good thoughts, just that things could be worse.

 

[Psugo823]

Such a definitive absolute statement is more hyperbole than reality.

Pirates aren’t really close to the worst for:
- seasons without a championship
- number of championships
- current record
- playoff drought (for what little it means)

This is not intended for feel good thoughts, just that things could be worse.

Wrong. Our owner is Bob Nutting. Things cannot be worse.

 

[LandoComando]

Such a definitive absolute statement is more hyperbole than reality.

Pirates aren’t really close to the worst for:
- seasons without a championship
- number of championships
- current record
- playoff drought (for what little it means)

This is not intended for feel good thoughts, just that things could be worse.

Other than the Arizona Coyotes what organization is run worse?
Since Nutting has over there's no question it's in the bottom. What happened prior to his arrival means nothing when discussing the organization today.

 

[Mufasa94]

Wrong.

Which facts are wrong?

Our owner is Bob Nutting. Things cannot be worse.

This reads like a post on the political board. They never even had a winning record in the McClatchy years, let alone be in the playoffs, so things could be worse.

Other than the Arizona Coyotes what organization is run worse?

There are many. A team like the NY Jets would qualify by being worse than the Pirates in each of the factors I listed. State what factor you consider important for deciding what the "worst professional franchise" is.

Since Nutting has over there's no question it's in the bottom.

The statement I responded to had worst, it isn’t a horseshoes and hand grenades vicinity idea.

What happened prior to his arrival means nothing when discussing the organization today.

The statement I responded to used franchise encompasses all the good and bad of its history that goes with it.
If you literally want to limit it to today, there are a handful of teams with worse records.

 

[Psugo823]

Which facts are wrong?

This reads like a post on the political board. They never even had a winning record in the McClatchy years, let alone be in the playoffs, so things could be worse.

There are many. A team like the NY Jets would qualify by being worse than the Pirates in each of the factors I listed. State what factor you consider important for deciding what the "worst professional franchise" is.

The statement I responded to had worst, it isn’t a horseshoes and hand grenades vicinity idea.

The statement I responded to used franchise encompasses all the good and bad of its history that goes with it.
If you literally want to limit it to today, there are a handful of teams with worse records.

Look everybody! Bob Nuttings daughter posts on the board!

 

[LandoComando]

Which facts are wrong?

This reads like a post on the political board. They never even had a winning record in the McClatchy years, let alone be in the playoffs, so things could be worse.

There are many. A team like the NY Jets would qualify by being worse than the Pirates in each of the factors I listed. State what factor you consider important for deciding what the "worst professional franchise" is.

The statement I responded to had worst, it isn’t a horseshoes and hand grenades vicinity idea.

The statement I responded to used franchise encompasses all the good and bad of its history that goes with it.
If you literally want to limit it to today, there are a handful of teams with worse records.

When they say franchise they mean "today" not 100 years ago. You're inability to comprehend what was being stated there is odd. Other than the Coyotes no organization is being run worse. Not even the Skins or whatever they're pretending to be called now.

 

[Obliviax]

Wrong. Our owner is Bob Nutting. Things cannot be worse.

I am not sure Nutting's background but he manages the team like he is CFO. I worked for a few tech companies where the CFO ascended to the CEO role. Basically, they manage the company from excel spreadsheets with no vision or creativity. They don't create products or markets. They simply milk the old products and when there is an inevitable downturn, just start cutting costs (layoffs) which creates a "circling the drain" effect. The board finally gets tired of a slow drip and fires him/her.

Successful franchises lose money year in and year out but make it up when they liquidate. The Washington Commanders, for example, lost money every year but that $600m investment in 2001 turned into a $6B asset in 2023. As the father of the owner of the KC Chiefs once said, when asked if he was concerned that his $240m net worth son was losing $1m a year on the team "yes. in 240 years, he may go broke".

 

[Mufasa94]

When they say franchise they mean "today" not 100 years ago.

If “today”, then would you say the Panthers franchise is better than the Penguins? Or, the Bengals franchise is better than the Steelers? How about the Ravens? Tell me where in history you draw your subjective line to define a franchise’s performance.

At some point, you will be the old fogey and your views of how important the current timeframe is will be discounted by the next whippersnapper.

You're inability to comprehend what was being stated there is odd.

One could say it was the posters inability to use the correct language in an attempt to make a clever declaration.

Other than the Coyotes no organization is being run worse.

So in the end, you agree with me that the poster’s statement was wrong.

Not that I agree with limiting it to the Coyotes. As I stated, the NY Jets (that you provided no refuting evidence of) are among multiple other franchises.