OT: College admissions scandal

[nitanee123]

I just read an article that somebody donated $6.5MM to have their kids admitted to a college. Am I the only person who isn't offended by this? If a school opts to lower their standards in exchange for a big pay-day, does anybody really care? Schools admit athletes with lower standards so why does it matter if a well-heeled, non-athlete does the same?

I really don't understand the outrage. Thoughts?

 

[Cletus11]

problem is now people are mixing 'scandals'. There has always been two ways to get into college.....

1. the front door. which everybody on here probably did which is apply and get in on own merits.

2. the back door....family donates huge money. Always been done for a century plus and nobody cared and everybody knew.

The scandal is now that there is a side door. A door where for a few hundred thousand (not the multi-millions it took for #2 above) you can cheat your way into college by paying somebody to take a test or change answers and bribing some admissions or coach to admit you. That is the scandal occuring now. This side door should not be confused with #2 above which is the big money donation to the school itself. The side door involves bribing people and cheating on tests.

 

[Obliviax]

I couldn't afford PSU at the time. Should I be outraged that kids that could afford it went instead of me?

I have no idea why people want to refuse the time honored tradition that "money talks". This will not change no matter the level of outrage. My advice to a kid that had to go to Clarion, Grove City or Haverford is to use that chip on their shoulder to show them they made a mistake. In the end, success is the best form of revenge.

 

[psuro]

I don't have an outrage about it. I do think that the manner in which Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman did it, coupled with the "tax break" is really a reflection on the sad state of parenting. If they had both donated $1MM or so to USC, the kids probably would have gotten in.

 

[nitanee123]

problem is now people are mixing 'scandals'. There has always been two ways to get into college.....

1. the front door. which everybody on here probably did which is apply and get in on own merits.

2. the back door....family donates huge money. Always been done for a century plus and nobody cared and everybody knew.

The scandal is now that there is a side door. A door where for a few hundred thousand (not the multi-millions it took for #2 above) you can cheat your way into college by paying somebody to take a test or change answers and bribing some admissions or coach to admit you. That is the scandal occuring now. This side door should not be confused with #2 above which is the big money donation to the school itself. The side door involves bribing people and cheating on tests.

I see the difference but my point is that the outrage over this is overblown. The outrage seems to be that unqualified students are taking the place of more qualified students. But this happens when (a.) families donate big $, (b.) athletes are given preferential treatment because of sports, (c.) affirmative action is part of the process, and (d.) foreign students are accepted for purposes of diversity. And the shear numbers of of these other students must absolutely dwarf the scandal that is occurring now. How many kids could have possibly out been displaced because of people like Lori Laughlin's kids? And who is to say that the admissions process sans pay-to-play isn't arbitrary anyway? This just doesn't outrage me.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

This is pretty funny.



Then Dre is reminded that in 2013, he and Jimmy Iovine made a shared donation of $70mm to USC to found the Jimmy Iovine and Andre Young Academy of Arts.

D'oh!!

 

[Cletus11]

I see the difference but my point is that the outrage over this is overblown. The outrage seems to be that unqualified students are taking the place of more qualified students. But this happens when (a.) families donate big $, (b.) athletes are given preferential treatment because of sports, (c.) affirmative action is part of the process, and (d.) foreign students are accepted for purposes of diversity. And the shear numbers of of these other students must absolutely dwarf the scandal that is occurring now. How many kids could have possibly out been displaced because of people like Lori Laughlin's kids? And who is to say that the admissions process sans pay-to-play isn't arbitrary anyway? This just doesn't outrage me.

I see a large difference between a ultra rich family donating multi-millions following all the legal rules in donation to a University and then the quid pro quo of kid getting in. Versus paying a proctor to cheat and change a SAT test score and then bribing a coach to say that somebody is a recruit. I find those two things extremely different.

I do agree the 'outrage' about how another kid who 'earned' it did not get accepted is faux outrage. The outrage should be about the cheating and bribery and how that led to the kid getting admitted.

 

[nitanee123]

I couldn't afford PSU at the time. Should I be outraged that kids that could afford it went instead of me?

I have no idea why people want to refuse the time honored tradition that "money talks". This will not change no matter the level of outrage. My advice to a kid that had to go to Clarion, Grove City or Haverford is to use that chip on their shoulder to show them they made a mistake. In the end, success is the best form of revenge.

There is no shame in going to Grove City. Too parochial for my tastes, but very good school.

 

[Pardlion]

I don't have an outrage about it. I do think that the manner in which Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman did it, coupled with the "tax break" is really a reflection on the sad state of parenting. If they had both donated $1MM or so to USC, the kids probably would have gotten in.

I keep thinking about this tax break. Even the people who donate the $1M to the school for a building are often getting something in return--they are buying the admission of their child into the school (a la Dr. Dre). This influence over the admissions process obviously has a real value least $250,000 to $500,000. Yet, the donors are getting a tax deduction on the full $1M amount of the donation. In effect, therefore, the American people are subsidizing (through tax deductions), rich parents' efforts to buy their kids admission to school. This troubles me. I would like to see it investigated. Start by subpoenaing all of the influence-related communications from Yale's admissions department.

 

[BobPSU92]

I just read an article that somebody donated $6.5MM to have their kids admitted to a college. Am I the only person who isn't offended by this? If a school opts to lower their standards in exchange for a big pay-day, does anybody really care? Schools admit athletes with lower standards so why does it matter if a well-heeled, non-athlete does the same?

I really don't understand the outrage. Thoughts?

You don't understand the OUTRAGE. ? Really? I know a guy who went out of his mind with OUTRAGE. because a Panera Bread had flimsy cup lids. It doesn't take much for some people, or so I've read.

 

[BobPSU92]

Speaking of OUTRAGE. , we already have a thread on this topic.

 

[Art]

I keep thinking about this tax break. Even the people who donate the $1M to the school for a building are often getting something in return--they are buying the admission of their child into the school (a la Dr. Dre). This influence over the admissions process obviously has a real value least $250,000 to $500,000. Yet, the donors are getting a tax deduction on the full $1M amount of the donation. In effect, therefore, the American people are subsidizing (through tax deductions), rich parents' efforts to buy their kids admission to school. This troubles me. I would like to see it investigated. Start by subpoenaing all of the influence-related communications from Yale's admissions department.

A mil ain't cuttin' it anymore, hasn't for a long time, maybe never, certainly not at a place like Yale. The current number is ten, for starters.

Investigate what? There is nothing criminal taking place. Don't like it? Write your congressional representative and have him change the tax code, just like they eliminated the destructibility of "contributions" to schools for the rights to purchase football seats.

 

[joeparules]

I couldn't afford PSU at the time. Should I be outraged that kids that could afford it went instead of me?

I have no idea why people want to refuse the time honored tradition that "money talks". This will not change no matter the level of outrage. My advice to a kid that had to go to Clarion, Grove City or Haverford is to use that chip on their shoulder to show them they made a mistake. In the end, success is the best form of revenge.

The first two were good examples, but Haverford is almost triple PSU in-state (about $18K more than OOS) and more expensive than Yale.

 

[psu1969a]

Heard that Plato and Socrates had a similar problem at the Lyceum.

 

[Pardlion]

A mil ain't cuttin' it anymore, hasn't for a long time, maybe never, certainly not at a place like Yale. The current number is ten, for starters.

Investigate what? There is nothing criminal taking place. Don't like it? Write your congressional representative and have him change the tax code, just like they eliminated the destructibility of "contributions" to schools for the rights to purchase football seats.

I'm not a tax expert, but I found this:

"A recent Tax Court case, Triumph Mixed Use Investments III, LLC, T.C. Memo. 2018-65, determined that a real estate development company was not entitled to claim a charitable contribution deduction for its transfer of certain open land to a city. The court found that the transfer was in exchange for the city's approval of the company's development plan, and that the city's approval constituted a substantial benefit that the taxpayer neither reported nor valued when it claimed the charitable contribution deduction."

So, that says to me that if you give money to a school with the expectation of gaining an admission, then your deduction is limited or disallowed.

 

[kijanacat]

I don't think the side-door kids (like the athletes) are really taking the place of someone who is academically qualified. These schools are too big for those kind of numbers to make any difference. Some years ago, a York County lawyer said he donated a decent sum of money for his kid to go to a Catholic grade school. He got a charitable deduction and the school did not charge tuition. This is part of life for us. I also don't quite get the outrage.

 

[Art]

I'm not a tax expert, but I found this:

"A recent Tax Court case, Triumph Mixed Use Investments III, LLC, T.C. Memo. 2018-65, determined that a real estate development company was not entitled to claim a charitable contribution deduction for its transfer of certain open land to a city. The court found that the transfer was in exchange for the city's approval of the company's development plan, and that the city's approval constituted a substantial benefit that the taxpayer neither reported nor valued when it claimed the charitable contribution deduction."

So, that says to me that if you give money to a school with the expectation of gaining an admission, then your deduction is limited or disallowed.

Okay, what's the value of gaining admission to pick your school?

 

[Pardlion]

Okay, what's the value of gaining admission to pick your school?

Not sure, but we have evidence that it’s a lot. And taxpayers are footing 30% of that.

 

[ralphster]

I asked my wife what we will have to bribe someone to get our son into barber college.

She responded, without missing a beat, "I thought Ohio State was his safety school."

 

[Art]

Not sure, but we have evidence that it’s a lot. And taxpayers are footing 30% of that.

The value to the person making the contribution i.e. the incidence of taxation.

 

[psuro]

My parents used the side door to get me into The School of Hard Knocks.

 

[LionDeNittany]

I just read an article that somebody donated $6.5MM to have their kids admitted to a college. Am I the only person who isn't offended by this? If a school opts to lower their standards in exchange for a big pay-day, does anybody really care? Schools admit athletes with lower standards so why does it matter if a well-heeled, non-athlete does the same?

I really don't understand the outrage. Thoughts?

There are two things I am outraged about.

1. They were able to make this cheating tax deductible... which is what the government is outraged about and the only reason it became a "thing".

2. That kids are still permitted to take the SAT with a proctor. Needs to be done away with. First time I remember hearing about this was that running back who went to WVU who did not qualify then suddenly did. Amos Zereoue I believe was the guy... but not sure.

Pay to play... 92nd St Y was in the news years ago for a reason.

LdN

 

[Cletus11]

There are two things I am outraged about.

1. They were able to make this cheating tax deductible... which is what the government is outraged about and the only reason it became a "thing".

2. That kids are still permitted to take the SAT with a proctor. Needs to be done away with. First time I remember hearing about this was that running back who went to WVU who did not qualify then suddenly did. Amos Zereoue I believe was the guy... but not sure.

Pay to play... 92nd St Y was in the news years ago for a reason.

LdN

i assume you don't know that with some $$$ you hire a lawyer and get a doctors note and can take an untimed SAT, even taking it over two days such that you could look up answers that night (just google untimed SAT and you can read it). all above board claiming a disability due to test taking anxiety. again, there are side doors that 99.99% of the population know nothing about that politicians and lawyers snuck into places that allow people with money to get around about anything. if you have money, you can get $150-$200 per hour tutor that literally has most of the SAT questions that are going to be on the test (not the SAT test itself, but they have 1000 math questions that the SAT is going to pick 50 of them to put on the test) and then you get a lawyer and a doctor, more $$$ to claim an untimed SAT due to anxiety issues. So now you have a kid that has practiced the questions and has as long as they want to take it.

Who is going to get a higher score, that kid or your kid that studied some stuff on-line and take a timed SAT like the rest of the common folk.

 

[Art]

i assume you don't know that with some $$$ you hire a lawyer and get a doctors note and can take an untimed SAT, even taking it over two days such that you could look up answers that night (just google untimed SAT and you can read it). all above board claiming a disability due to test taking anxiety. again, there are side doors that 99.99% of the population know nothing about that politicians and lawyers snuck into places that allow people with money to get around about anything. if you have money, you can get $150-$200 per hour tutor that literally has most of the SAT questions that are going to be on the test (not the SAT test itself, but they have 1000 math questions that the SAT is going to pick 50 of them to put on the test) and then you get a lawyer and a doctor, more $$$ to claim an untimed SAT due to anxiety issues. So now you have a kid that has practiced the questions and has as long as they want to take it.

Who is going to get a higher score, that kid or your kid that studied some stuff on-line and take a timed SAT like the rest of the common folk.

All of which will help diddly to get into schools like Yale and Stanford.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

I couldn't afford PSU at the time. Should I be outraged that kids that could afford it went instead of me?

I have no idea why people want to refuse the time honored tradition that "money talks". This will not change no matter the level of outrage. My advice to a kid that had to go to Clarion, Grove City or Haverford is to use that chip on their shoulder to show them they made a mistake. In the end, success is the best form of revenge.

Haverford? Bad choice to use here. More expensive, and a far better school than PSU.

The full freight at Haverford is (gulp) $73,000 per year.

 

[Cletus11]

All of which will help diddly to get into schools like Yale and Stanford.

i don't see your point. so you only hate the ultra rich who can buy their way into Yale for the price of a $5 million dollar donation. But people who can afford a few hundred grand to work the system and get ahead of those who don't have that kind of money are ok?

 

[LionDeNittany]

i assume you don't know that with some $$$ you hire a lawyer and get a doctors note and can take an untimed SAT, even taking it over two days such that you could look up answers that night (just google untimed SAT and you can read it). all above board claiming a disability due to test taking anxiety. again, there are side doors that 99.99% of the population know nothing about that politicians and lawyers snuck into places that allow people with money to get around about anything. if you have money, you can get $150-$200 per hour tutor that literally has most of the SAT questions that are going to be on the test (not the SAT test itself, but they have 1000 math questions that the SAT is going to pick 50 of them to put on the test) and then you get a lawyer and a doctor, more $$$ to claim an untimed SAT due to anxiety issues. So now you have a kid that has practiced the questions and has as long as they want to take it.

Who is going to get a higher score, that kid or your kid that studied some stuff on-line and take a timed SAT like the rest of the common folk.

I do know this. That was the point of my post. It should be stopped.

LdN

 

[Art]

i don't see your point. so you only hate the ultra rich who can buy their way into Yale for the price of a $5 million dollar donation. But people who can afford a few hundred grand to work the system and get ahead of those who don't have that kind of money are ok?

No, the point is that getting a diagnosis to take an un-timed test or a tutor to boost scores will do little to increase an applicant's chances of getting into Yale or Stanford. Reading something that's not there is a common cause of failure.

 

[Cletus11]

No, the point is that getting a diagnosis to take an un-timed test or a tutor to boost scores will do little to increase an applicant's chances of getting into Yale or Stanford. Reading something that's not there is a common cause of failure.

It also won't help you get hired as an underwater demolitions expert or as a circus clown, again what is your point. So you are saying the only way to get into Yale/Standord (does that list include Harvard and the other Ivy's) is to donate $5+ million? I don't think that is the case.

 

[BobPSU92]

Yale rescinded the admission of one of the fake athletes. The kid was already enrolled.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/25/us/yale-rescinds-student-admissions-scandal/index.html

 

[psuro]

Here is something that irks me - the message these parents are sending is "Don't worry about working hard and applying yourself, we will always have money to take care of things for you".

I did not read (perhaps it was not reported) that any of these parents paid for tutors or extra help for their kids in primary or secondary school so they could do better in the classroom. If they had, perhaps the kids would have done well enough on their own. If they had and the kids still didn't do well, then perhaps that sends the parents the message.

But, only going by what I have read, it seems like the issue is that the kids never really excelled or were even adequate and the parents knew it and panicked and tried to side door their kids way into the colleges. Again, saying "we have money, don't worry we will take care of you".

 

[Art]

It also won't help you get hired as an underwater demolitions expert or as a circus clown, again what is your point. So you are saying the only way to get into Yale/Standord (does that list include Harvard and the other Ivy's) is to donate $5+ million? I don't think that is the case.

Jesus, you are thick.

 

[BobPSU92]

Here is something that irks me - the message these parents are sending is "Don't worry about working hard and applying yourself, we will always have money to take care of things for you".

I did not read (perhaps it was not reported) that any of these parents paid for tutors or extra help for their kids in primary or secondary school so they could do better in the classroom. If they had, perhaps the kids would have done well enough on their own. If they had and the kids still didn't do well, then perhaps that sends the parents the message.

But, only going by what I have read, it seems like the issue is that the kids never really excelled or were even adequate and the parents knew it and panicked and tried to side door their kids way into the colleges. Again, saying "we have money, don't worry we will take care of you".

They’re rich. Why should they work hard?

They’re rich. What would the other ELITES. say if their ENTITLED. SNOWFLAKE. actually worked hard and then could only go to State? That would be a PR disaster.

The answer for these people (and people who look like them ) is to buy their way in. Money solves all problems (or petty inconveniences like getting into college).

 

[Obliviax]

Looks like Felicity is plea bargaining and pled guilty today, according to TMZ. They speculate that Lori Laughlin is not, since 11 people pled guilty today but Lori did not.

Felicity Huffman has thrown in the towel in her college admissions cheating scandal ... pleading guilty, along with 12 other parents and one coach.

The former "Desperate Housewives" star was one of 14 people who entered guilty pleas Monday. She pled guilty to conspiracy to commit mail fraud as well as honest services mail fraud.

Felicity Huffman, 56, of Los Angeles, Calif, paid Rick Singer $15,000 to rig her daughter's SAT test. The girl had twice the amount of time as normal to take the exam and the proctor corrected her answers afterward.

Huffman released a statement saying, "I am in full acceptance of my guilt, and with deep regret and shame over what I have done, I accept full responsibility for my actions and will accept the consequences that stem from those actions."

She continues, "I am ashamed of the pain I have caused my daughter, my family, my friends, my colleagues and the educational community."

As for sentencing ... no word. TMZ broke the story, our sources in the prosecutor's office say they wanted some prison time. The prosecutor recommends a sentence to the judge, and the judge has the final word.​

 

[LurkerLazarus]

I'll be shocked if any of these rich people do any real time.

 

[Obliviax]

I'll be shocked if any of these rich people do any real time.

First time offense for a non-violent act...I'd agree...Probably a stiff fine and probation ending with it being expunged in a couple of years. We'll see how damaging it is to her career, if any.