OT: I'm listening to a debate on the radio about pros/cons of consuming raw milk.

[Class of 67]

In a nut shell:
Pros: Anecdotal evidence of less incidence of asthma and other diseases among children and adults.
Cons: Dangerous pathogens can cause serious health impact.

Both sides claim factual evidence supporting their positions, including doctors. Do any of you use raw milk and feed it to your children? Yes or no, why?

 

[Fac]

If it came out of one of the containers that Ro's pics carry I would consume as much as I could on a daily basis.

 

[Op2]

In a nut shell:
Pros: Anecdotal evidence of less incidence of asthma and other diseases among children and adults.
Cons: Dangerous pathogens can cause serious health impact.

Both sides claim factual evidence supporting their positions, including doctors. Do any of you use raw milk and feed it to your children? Yes or no, why?

If raw milk is better than regular milk then what was the point of inventing pastuerization, etc? Seems kinda pointless. I'd stick with regular milk. When it comes to food some people have a strong "natural is better" bent which if you stop to think about it has no reasoning behind it at all. I mean, although in any particular case natural could be better, but why would natural be better in principle? It doesn't make any sense. It's dogma.

When you stop to think about it, the fact that humans drink milk from a cow is kinda weird. Someday when technology has advanced far enough that we can design more optimal food for humans people will look back and find it funny that we once drank cow milk and ate chicken eggs and all that stuff.

 

[Lions8286]

We are not a big milk family, but we used raw from a farm near our house off and on for several years. My wife is really into that type of thing. At least in our case, the pathogens we kept in check with an ultra-violet process of some kind. Never had any problems at all.

 

[Op2]

We are not a big milk family, but we used raw from a farm near our house off and on for several years. My wife is really into that type of thing. At least in our case, the pathogens we kept in check with an ultra-violet process of some kind. Never had any problems at all.

If you used a process to get rid of the pathogens then it was no longer raw milk.

 

[Lions8286]

If you used a process to get rid of the pathogens then it was no longer raw milk.

I didn't use the process, the farm did and they sold it as raw milk. I have to imagine that the marking process, etc is regulated heavily by the FDA.

 

[Op2]

I didn't use the process, the farm did and they sold it as raw milk. I have to imagine that the marking process, etc is regulated heavily by the FDA.

If the farm took raw milk, then did something to it (which meant it was no longer raw milk) and then sold it as raw milk then I think they're using the "raw" angle as a marketing/selling tool.

 

[katchthis]

Arnold Schwarzenegger-Milk is for babies, beer is for men

 

[LionwiththeDevil]

I recall a frat at PSU made their pledges drink milk straight from the tap. The cow was not pleased and the pledges are all now leading dairy free diets.

 

[farmer79]

I recall a frat at PSU made their pledges drink milk straight from the tap. The cow was not pleased and the pledges are all now leading dairy free diets.

As a certified farm boy lol I grew up on a dairy farm now own that farm I love a cold glass of milk raw milk an have never been sick from it or know of anyone in our family being sick from it but please drink milk in any form. If you do but milk let me thank you

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Pasteurization is a lot of hooey.

Regards,
Sal Minella

 

[The Spin Meister]

That could have been my fraternity. I can't remember, everything from my pledging days is a little hazy.

To answer the pasteurization question, It was used because old time "city" dairies, prior to residential refrigeration, weren't always the cleanest of places. The milk picked up lots of pathogens as a result of mishandling. My dad grew up on raw milk and never got sick. I think if you get FRESH, raw milk and handle it properly, the chances that you will get sick are limited.

Its also because as people moved ot cities they didn't grow their own milk and drink it fresh. It had to be stored and shipped, allowing contamination while handling and time for spoilage.

 

[Nit Nolte]

We've been drinking raw Jersey milk for years. Tastes much better than the processed stuff. We've given it to our kids ever since they came off the boob.

 

[PSU87]

If the farm took raw milk, then did something to it (which meant it was no longer raw milk) and then sold it as raw milk then I think they're using the "raw" angle as a marketing/selling tool.

Wrong. Irradiation or exposure to uv light to kill pathogens does not change its raw status. Pasteurization is actually cooking the milk so it is no longer raw.
A company near me manufactures industrial equipment to expose full sides of beef to uv light to kill e coli....it's still raw after that.
Raw means not cooked....it's doesn't mean not treated in any way.

 

[Op2]

Wrong. Irradiation or exposure to uv light to kill pathogens does not change its raw status. Pasteurization is actually cooking the milk so it is no longer raw.
A company near me manufactures industrial equipment to expose full sides of beef to uv light to kill e coli....it's still raw after that.
Raw means not cooked....it's doesn't mean not treated in any way.

Okay, I was meaning "raw" in the sense of "pure" but yeah, if you mean it in the sense of "uncooked" then milk exposed to UV light is raw. By that standard though all milk is raw and speaking in terms of raw and not raw is moot. They do heat milk somewhat for a short time when they pastuerize it but it's not cooked.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Okay, I was meaning "raw" in the sense of "pure" but yeah, if you mean it in the sense of "uncooked" then milk exposed to UV light is raw. By that standard though all milk is raw and speaking in terms of raw and not raw is moot. They do heat milk somewhat for a short time when they pastuerize it but it's not cooked.

------------------
Depends on how you define cooked. The pasteurizing process heats it enough that it causes chemical changes. And the changes depend on the method used but there are changes.

What does cooked mean? I don't really know but there are enough chemical changes in pasteurized milk that it is certainly not raw.

 

[canuckhal]

I believe it is illegal to sell raw milk. To get around this, farmers were selling shares of a cow. Not sure what the regs are now, but there was talk of making cow shares illegal. As long as the cow is clean, raw milk should not cause a problem but ecoli is naturally occurring. Problem is if the cow is not "clean," ecoli or other pathogens could cause problems, esp. for infants and those with compromised immune systems. Pasteurization insures that the milk is safe. Matter of risk tolerance and knowing where the milk is coming from and what practices are being followed.

 

[theengineer]

Its also because as people moved ot cities they didn't grow their own milk and drink it fresh. It had to be stored and shipped, allowing contamination while handling and time for spoilage.[/QUOTE

Correct. I grew up on a Dairy Farm and had Raw milk nearly every day until I left home in my late teens. Because it's so full of good stuff to just about anything bacteria almost immediately will grow, and does until the milk is chilled. We only had enough milk to last a day or two, so it was always very fresh.

The Pasteurization process makes it less tasty to bacteria, so it probably does kill off some of the nutrients in raw milk with the tradeoff of a much longer shelf life. if you want to drink raw, I would be aware of the bacteria count and that the milk will not last very long and must be cold. It's like raw. untreated meat and needs to be carefully taken care of if is to be safe.

I do think that it is beneficial in ways we do not yet understand. I have been very all of my life and so has everyone in my immediate family. I think that a certain amount of germs we are exposed to will only fortify our immunity.

 

[kijanalives]

If you used a process to get rid of the pathogens then it was no longer raw milk.

Not true...UV light does not cool or heat the product at all. Technically still raw. Pasteurization involves heat which kills all beneficial enzymes and bacteria in the milk. Homogenization goes further using high pressure to separate the free fats (all the good kind).

 

[kijanalives]

I believe it is illegal to sell raw milk. To get around this, farmers were selling shares of a cow. Not sure what the regs are now, but there was talk of making cow shares illegal. As long as the cow is clean, raw milk should not cause a problem but ecoli is naturally occurring. Problem is if the cow is not "clean," ecoli or other pathogens could cause problems, esp. for infants and those with compromised immune systems. Pasteurization insures that the milk is safe. Matter of risk tolerance and knowing where the milk is coming from and what practices are being followed.

Pasteurization ensures the milk is sterile. Safe is relative and in your case subjective.

 

[kijanalives]

Okay, I was meaning "raw" in the sense of "pure" but yeah, if you mean it in the sense of "uncooked" then milk exposed to UV light is raw. By that standard though all milk is raw and speaking in terms of raw and not raw is moot. They do heat milk somewhat for a short time when they pastuerize it but it's not cooked.

Still wrong. Pasteurization generally gets up to temps of 145 F or more. That's a medium rare steak, after rested, for comparison.

 

[WDLion]

Wrong. Irradiation or exposure to uv light to kill pathogens does not change its raw status. Pasteurization is actually cooking the milk so it is no longer raw.
A company near me manufactures industrial equipment to expose full sides of beef to uv light to kill e coli....it's still raw after that.
Raw means not cooked....it's doesn't mean not treated in any way.

Pasteurization is not cooking the milk. It is heated to 161 degrees.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Pasteurization is not cooking the milk. It is heated to 161 degrees.

Heating is basically the definition of cooking, so the milk is certainly cooked. LOL

 

[Op2]

Maybe we're splitting hairs here but hitting milk with UV rays is changing its chemical structure so although it's not then "cooked" in the conventional sense it is altered. It's a different way of achieving the same effect as heating the milk without actually heating the milk. The point of heating milk in pastuerization is to achieve an effect, not to heat it just for the sake of heating it. (Maybe technically hitting milk with UV rays is heating the milk but I leave that distinction to people that know more about chemistry and physics.)

The milk comes out of the cow in one state. Then you do something to change that state, be it UV rays or pastuerization. If you use UV rays and then tell people "This is natural, raw milk, not like the processed pastuerized milk you get in stores" I think you're being disingenuous.

 

[WDLion]

Heating is basically the definition of cooking, so the milk is certainly cooked. LOL

So if i heat my Thanksgiving Turkey for 20 minutes it is cooked?
To me cooking milk means bringing it to boiling.

 

[PSU87]

Pasteurization is not cooking the milk. It is heated to 161 degrees.

So if I give you 161 degree steak it isn't cooked?
It's absolutely cooking the milk.

 

[Cletus11]

160 degrees for 20 minutes kills the bacteria.

 

[Op2]

So if I give you 161 degree steak it isn't cooked?
It's absolutely cooking the milk.

According to Wiki, pastuerized milk is heated to 161 F for 15 seconds.

 

[Op2]

160 degrees for 20 minutes kills the bacteria.

I wonder if PETB (People for the Ethical Treatment of Bacteria) are pissed off about pastuerization.

 

[CentexLion]

I believe it is illegal to sell raw milk. To get around this, farmers were selling shares of a cow. Not sure what the regs are now, but there was talk of making cow shares illegal. As long as the cow is clean, raw milk should not cause a problem but ecoli is naturally occurring. Problem is if the cow is not "clean," ecoli or other pathogens could cause problems, esp. for infants and those with compromised immune systems. Pasteurization insures that the milk is safe. Matter of risk tolerance and knowing where the milk is coming from and what practices are being followed.

We buy raw milk from a farmer up the road as often as we can. I do not think it is illegal to sell here in Texas. He sells out within an hour every Saturday morning. And it tastes great.

 

[Op2]

As an aside, I've read about a company named Muufri (pronounced "Moo Free") that is trying to develop cow-free milk. Not plant based milk, like almond milk or whatever, but regular milk. The idea is that milk is made of chemicals and you could just figure out how to create and combine the chemicals you could skip the inefficiencies of creating and sustaining a giant animal just to get its milk. And since they're creating the milk themselves they could leave out the undesirables, like lactose, which many people are allergic to. And it wouldn't need pasteurized or bombarded with UV because it wouldn't have harmful bacteria in the first place.

Of course, saying all this is one thing and achieving it is another. And even if they can achieve it, converting the public to it is another hurdle.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ab-grown-milk-biotechnology-gmo-food-climate/

 

[kijanalives]

So if i heat my Thanksgiving Turkey for 20 minutes it is cooked?
To me cooking milk means bringing it to boiling.

With that logic, you'd have boiled turkey (~220 F) and very unhappy TGiving guests...to everyone else, your definition is wrong.