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OT: In no surprise Dustin Johnson chases Saudi cash

It's not. It's a sport, which isn't a business. Which like other sports is constantly and tirelessly tried over and over to turn into a business by non-sports sycophants. It often works monetarily and momentarily but what you end up with is irrevocably broken cycle of bullshit for everyone who actually loves and supports that particular sport.
i disagree. it is a business. it is in the entertainment business. The PGA couldn't care less who wins, that changes every year. When that winner is gone, they are gone. They just turn to the next big-name moneymaker. And that is how they got into trouble...they stopped listening to the players and made them vulnerable to LIV. Its their own darned fault.
 
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i disagree. it is a business. it is in the entertainment business. The PGA couldn't care less who wins, that changes every year. When that winner is gone, they are gone. They just turn to the next big-name moneymaker. And that is how they got into trouble...they stopped listening to the players and made them vulnerable to LIV. Its their own darned fault.
That's the Phil Mickleson version.
Now do the Tiger Woods version.
LIV is nothing but Saudi cash, see it for what it is.
 
That's the Phil Mickleson version.
Now do the Tiger Woods version.
LIV is nothing but Saudi cash, see it for what it is.
hmmm...not really. The players got fed up with how the PGA required them to attend certain events or be penalized. The player then is under pressure from their sponsors. The top end players simply had way too many obligations between non-tour and family events. Don't forget, the tour started in Feb and didn't end until the fall.

Regardless, competition makes everyone and everything better.

 
hmmm...not really. The players got fed up with how the PGA required them to attend certain events or be penalized. The player then is under pressure from their sponsors. The top end players simply had way too many obligations between non-tour and family events. Don't forget, the tour started in Feb and didn't end until the fall.

Regardless, competition makes everyone and everything better.

Its not gonna work out well if we start posting opinion pieces.
I actually know some of these guys, I'll pass on the content based op-eds.
I mean yeah people who make millions of dollars are under pressure from the shareholders, sponsors, board of directors, etc. When American Express sponsor's you to the tune of 1.8 million a year to wear their logo when you play, yeah you have to play a few rounds with some chops that are important to their business, kiss a few rings and go to few cocktail parties.
 
Its not gonna work out well if we start posting opinion pieces.
I actually know some of these guys, I'll pass on the content based op-eds.
I mean yeah people who make millions of dollars are under pressure from the shareholders, sponsors, board of directors, etc. When American Express sponsor's you to the tune of 1.8 million a year to wear their logo when you play, yeah you have to play a few rounds with some chops that are important to their business, kiss a few rings and go to few cocktail parties.
Fair enough...so it all comes back to money.

If I am making $100m a year on golf and various options from golf, I've got options. They have a lot of pressure from a lot of different areas. If I am approached by a Saudi national who is willing to give me that $100m and give me a lot more time with my family, I am in. I really don't stop to think "what would the CEO of the PGA tour think or the CEO of AmEx think?" These guys are paid to win golf matches. Nobody ever went to Lefty and said "hey Lefty, I saw you came in second by two strokes and realize we contributed to that but having unreasonable demands and the lack of course maintenance caused you to miss a stroke on 15 so we are going to give you and additional $10m to make up for it and award you points toward the FedEx cup."

As Norm on Cheers said "its a dog-eat-dog world out there and I am wearing milk bone underwear". They had better options than the PGA tour and took them. Case closed. Good for them. Now it up to the PGA to react.
 
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looks like LIV is going to land a contract for TV in the USA on The CW Network.


Right in between One Tree Hill and The Flash?

I have no sympathy for guys cashing in on the Saudi money. The only thing the PGA should maybe do is restructure the way the FedEx cup points are accumulated, but I don’t know what the solution is there. LIV is turning golf into pro euro football. Where teams pay hundreds of millions just for the rights to sign a player to a contract worth hundreds of millions. All from Russian and Arabian oil money. Biggest difference, golf is not soccer/futbol or f1 on the world stage. This model of overpaying for everything golf just doesn’t seem sustainable unless the Saudis have no issue operating in the red for the foreseeable future.
 
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I'm impressed someone has watched the CW enough to know two shows
I actually like the concept of LIV but I know I'm in the minority
I am with you. LIV is great. Go for it as long as it lasts. If it folds the PGA would be stupid to not welcome them back. There are more guys I rooted for and against on the LIV tour than the PGA. It is getting very bland. Who has won the last 3 PGA events i haven't even watched.
 
Right in between One Tree Hill and The Flash?

I have no sympathy for guys cashing in on the Saudi money. The only thing the PGA should maybe do is restructure the way the FedEx cup points are accumulated, but I don’t know what the solution is there. LIV is turning golf into pro euro football. Where teams pay hundreds of millions just for the rights to sign a player to a contract worth hundreds of millions. All from Russian and Arabian oil money. Biggest difference, golf is not soccer/futbol or f1 on the world stage. This model of overpaying for everything golf just doesn’t seem sustainable unless the Saudis have no issue operating in the red for the foreseeable future.
IDK, they are professional golfers who are not bound to a team. They go where they can make the most money.

we can complain about SA all we want but the USA has done that and worse (read up on Assange or the Twitter files). The notion of who is good and who is bad depends upon perspective. USA long ago gave up the "high road" on that. And if someone thinks they should be "loyal" to the PGA, they've long made recommendations and the PGA simply ignored them. Competition makes everyone better. LIV will make PGA better, over the long run.
 
t is a business. it is in the entertainment business.
Sort of entertainment business. I grew up on golf courses and played junior tournament golf. Golf is generally boring to watch. It becomes excellent when giants are dueling against each other or the scorecard or something very unusual happens. Nicklaus v Watson. Johnny Miller shooting a 63 to win the US Open. Tiger Woods chasing Jack Nicklaus record or winning Masters after long lay off. As pure entertainment golf ranks low on list. It is the pursuit of excellence and the competition against long established historic records that generates real interest. LIV golf is just a gimmick that will die when the Saudis decide to stop throwing money at it.
 
A lot of Saudi money out there all over the place. The new prince is looking outward where to spend money and that is in all things (real estate, production plants, private equity, etc..) including sports. I think the Saudi's are fine burning through cash on LIV for a few years to see where it leads, this isn't the XFL or USFL that is surviving on nothing. And as we have seen, most golfers are going to go after the money of the LIV versus staying with the PGA as ultimately there is no allegiance to the PGA if LIV is going to pay them the same or more money.
 
New Netflix show on the PGA tour modeled after the F-1 show which was so successful. This looks fun to me. I am sure that it was seeded by the PGA but that adds to the intrigue.

 
New Netflix show on the PGA tour modeled after the F-1 show which was so successful. This looks fun to me. I am sure that it was seeded by the PGA but that adds to the intrigue.

That does look fun. A couple interesting comments in that reel.
. It's win or go home.
. You can make millions or you can make nothing
. At the end it's all about business

I get a kick out all those guys saying the PGA tour made these guys. Who made who is the question?
 
That does look fun. A couple interesting comments in that reel.
. It's win or go home.
. You can make millions or you can make nothing
. At the end it's all about business

I get a kick out all those guys saying the PGA tour made these guys. Who made who is the question?
I agree.

The exemptions are worth a lot. they talked about justin rose, who is leading at the AT&T right now, hasn't won an event since 2019 (PGA). He won two in 2019 and is a major winner. So he's enjoyed an exemption that allows him to pick and choose events. Others, who are trying to prove themselves, play almost every weekend hoping the magic happens. (picked up a TON of endorsement money including Mastercard which has kept him in, ahem, roses).

It is a very singular world where your friends are also your competition. Some are very personable and helpful. Others not so much. I've heard people say that Tiger was great to talk about whatever, but don't ask him about his game or bother him during the match or you'd get quite a look. At least Jordan had teammates to confide in. I also think that is one reason why the Ryder Cup has become so popular for players.

Regardless, a sport unlike any other. Maybe singles tennis would be the closest.
 
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So what is the takeaway? The LIV is too tough so he is thinking about going back to the PGA? Hmmm?
 
So what is the takeaway? The LIV is too tough so he is thinking about going back to the PGA? Hmmm?
If you watch the second episode of Full Swing, Koepka has some serious mental blocks associated with his game. Plus, the people around him, including his new crazy wife, are not helping the situation at all.
 
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I watched a bit of LIV on The CW this weekend. Obviously, the quality of play was high. But it looked like a bunch of hooters guys playing golf. They wore shorts and have this weird "team play" format so they had these team logos (since they don't have any real sponsors) that looked like the marketing team from the XFL made them up during their time between XFL gigs. There were no crowds or galleries. I have read that their rating was that about 200,000 people tuned in to watch, worldwide.

LIV Team Logos:

FUqxdY7WUAMKH5r.jpg
 
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First, Scottie Sheffler is on another planet right now in the world of golf. He and Rahm. Scottie wins the TPC, probably the fifth most important tournament, by five strokes yesterday.

More interestingly is a suit filed against Saudi Arabia and LIV. As I understand it, and I am not close to 100% sure, the case looks into if LIV is part of the Saudi govt instead of a separate business entity. This would make LIV a completely different operation in terms of disclosure and accountability. Not sure the Saudi's want to sign up for that and could force LIV to stop playing tournaments in the USA.
 
First, Scottie Sheffler is on another planet right now in the world of golf. He and Rahm. Scottie wins the TPC, probably the fifth most important tournament, by five strokes yesterday.

More interestingly is a suit filed against Saudi Arabia and LIV. As I understand it, and I am not close to 100% sure, the case looks into if LIV is part of the Saudi govt instead of a separate business entity. This would make LIV a completely different operation in terms of disclosure and accountability. Not sure the Saudi's want to sign up for that and could force LIV to stop playing tournaments in the USA.
Who filed the suit? At this point I thought all those who dislike LIV were telling us how great the current PGA is. Why not let it play out. BTW you are correct about Rahm and Scheffler.
 
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Tiger Woods has surgery on his ankle. There is no published timeframe for his return to the sport.

 
Tiger Woods has surgery on his ankle. There is no published timeframe for his return to the sport.

I was never a great Tiger fan probably because I am old enough to be a Jack fan and I didn't want to see the record broken, and to honest I thought he was juicing a little but you talk about a gutty performer. That guy has played golf under some really severe pain situations and just guts it out.
Hope he gets back. Time is not on his side.
 
I was never a great Tiger fan probably because I am old enough to be a Jack fan and I didn't want to see the record broken, and to honest I thought he was juicing a little but you talk about a gutty performer. That guy has played golf under some really severe pain situations and just guts it out.
Hope he gets back. Time is not on his side.
I think as long as he his able to walk. Augusta is going to Tiger to at least attempt to play. I remember Arnold Palmer kept playing the Masters into his 70s. I fear this year may be Tiger’s last cut made.

I don’t know if Tiger will play the Senior/Champions Tour when he turns 50. That is the one tour I think LIV will kill. Mickelson obviously isn’t playing it, and many other older guys who will turn 50 in a few years (Westwood, Stenson, Bubba, Sergio, etc) have defected to LIV as well
 
I was never a great Tiger fan probably because I am old enough to be a Jack fan and I didn't want to see the record broken, and to honest I thought he was juicing a little but you talk about a gutty performer. That guy has played golf under some really severe pain situations and just guts it out.
Hope he gets back. Time is not on his side.
if you don't believe Tiger was using PEDs, then you don't believe Sosa/McGwire/Bonds were using PEDs either. I for certain think he was juicing during his peak years as everything pointed towards he was.
 
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if you don't believe Tiger was using PEDs, then you don't believe Sosa/McGwire/Bonds were using PEDs either. I for certain think he was juicing during his peak years as everything pointed towards he was.
Agreed he went from looking like Barry bonds to looking like, well..... Barry Bonds
 
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Yea Tiger bulked up to 185 lbs. He is probably bigger now than he ever was and still is not very big.
I didn't do roids but left college at 165 lbs. By the time I was 24, I was 210 with very little fat. While I worked out, I wasn't a gym rat by any means. My workouts were morning runs and playing basketball two or three times a week in leagues. My lifting was more for cardio, I never did any kind of bodybuilding. I just consider myself a late bloomer. I went to 225 until I was 50.

Today, I weigh a lot more, sadly! Things changed after 50 when I could no longer endure the hard cardio workouts I enjoyed (and ate too much).
 
Greg Norman had a really good interview this week regarding LIV. he said that he felt the PGA made their own bed and couldn't see what was going on and, really, needed. With the world becoming smaller, other pro sports have gone international. While there was ample golf in Europe, Korea, Australia, South Africa and the USA most other areas have been ignored. The Middle East, China, and India account for 2/3rds of the world's population. The PGA was doing very little to nothing to expand the game. In the meantime, players were getting upset that the PGA kept increasing requirements so that top end guys, who are aging (think Micholson and Keopka) have lives as fathers and can't maintain the road riggers. But if they want to compete in the FedEx Cup, have to play a ton of events.

Today, with LIV, they are scheduling events all over the world. Golf is booming worldwide. $300m has been invested in SE Asia. Vietnam is building golf courses.

While the media has chosen to brand LIV as "blood money", Norman feels it is the opposite. It is another sport that will create common interests and bring people together. He said he knew that he has two legacies: one as a top end golfer and one as the founder of LIV. He knew his lasting legacy would be LIV and his golf game would be eclipsed by his participation in LIV. He may or may not live to see LIV prosper but is comfortable that LIV will be seen as a tremendous growth strategy for the game. He says the LIV players see it already.

Lastly, he feels that the PGA embracing LIV like they have the Euro Tour would help the sport advance. Why they saw it as a potentially damaging league, he has no idea. In the end, golf is a sport. Sport is a competition. Why would the PGA be afraid of competition?

Interesting food for thought. PGA had gotten fat and closed. They stopped listening and evolving.
 
Greg Norman had a really good interview this week regarding LIV. he said that he felt the PGA made their own bed and couldn't see what was going on and, really, needed. With the world becoming smaller, other pro sports have gone international. While there was ample golf in Europe, Korea, Australia, South Africa and the USA most other areas have been ignored. The Middle East, China, and India account for 2/3rds of the world's population. The PGA was doing very little to nothing to expand the game. In the meantime, players were getting upset that the PGA kept increasing requirements so that top end guys, who are aging (think Micholson and Keopka) have lives as fathers and can't maintain the road riggers. But if they want to compete in the FedEx Cup, have to play a ton of events.

Today, with LIV, they are scheduling events all over the world. Golf is booming worldwide. $300m has been invested in SE Asia. Vietnam is building golf courses.

While the media has chosen to brand LIV as "blood money", Norman feels it is the opposite. It is another sport that will create common interests and bring people together. He said he knew that he has two legacies: one as a top end golfer and one as the founder of LIV. He knew his lasting legacy would be LIV and his golf game would be eclipsed by his participation in LIV. He may or may not live to see LIV prosper but is comfortable that LIV will be seen as a tremendous growth strategy for the game. He says the LIV players see it already.

Lastly, he feels that the PGA embracing LIV like they have the Euro Tour would help the sport advance. Why they saw it as a potentially damaging league, he has no idea. In the end, golf is a sport. Sport is a competition. Why would the PGA be afraid of competition?

Interesting food for thought. PGA had gotten fat and closed. They stopped listening and evolving. He The growth of golf has little to nothing to do with LIV, and very little of what LIV does is growing the game. The DP World has been playing the in same places

Greg Norman had a really good interview this week regarding LIV. he said that he felt the PGA made their own bed and couldn't see what was going on and, really, needed. With the world becoming smaller, other pro sports have gone international. While there was ample golf in Europe, Korea, Australia, South Africa and the USA most other areas have been ignored. The Middle East, China, and India account for 2/3rds of the world's population. The PGA was doing very little to nothing to expand the game. In the meantime, players were getting upset that the PGA kept increasing requirements so that top end guys, who are aging (think Micholson and Keopka) have lives as fathers and can't maintain the road riggers. But if they want to compete in the FedEx Cup, have to play a ton of events.

Today, with LIV, they are scheduling events all over the world. Golf is booming worldwide. $300m has been invested in SE Asia. Vietnam is building golf courses.

While the media has chosen to brand LIV as "blood money", Norman feels it is the opposite. It is another sport that will create common interests and bring people together. He said he knew that he has two legacies: one as a top end golfer and one as the founder of LIV. He knew his lasting legacy would be LIV and his golf game would be eclipsed by his participation in LIV. He may or may not live to see LIV prosper but is comfortable that LIV will be seen as a tremendous growth strategy for the game. He says the LIV players see it already.

Lastly, he feels that the PGA embracing LIV like they have the Euro Tour would help the sport advance. Why they saw it as a potentially damaging league, he has no idea. In the end, golf is a sport. Sport is a competition. Why would the PGA be afraid of competition?

Interesting food for thought. PGA had gotten fat and closed. They stopped listening and evolving.
The expansion of golf into places like China, India, and Southeast Asia is more of product of economic development in those countries than anything else. While the same people who run the LIV Tour have invested in SE Asia, it's a bit of a stretch to say that Norman's business partners are the primary reason for the growth of the game in that area. Golf doesn't grow in places where most the population is living in extreme poverty and tourism is limited. DP World Tour has been playing in the Middle East for a while and play their equivalent of the Fed Ex Cup Final in Dubai. They even call the year-long point championship the "Race to Dubai."

The existence of PGA and European tours were the product of efforts to modernize professional golf in Europe and North America in the 60's and before. That happened separate from each other primarily because, up to that point, most of the playing pros stayed on their home continent most of the time. As that changed, the two existing tours decided to cooperate rather than compete. They hadn't been competitors up to that point and saw no reason to start. LIV was started as a competitor to both tours; no one debates that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it seems more than a little self-serving for Norman to suggest that the tours he's trying to compete with should treat LIV as anything but a competitor.

The competition from LIV has definitely caused the other tours to wake up to issues they never felt a reason to address and that's a good thing. If/when LIV starts developmental tours that provide more opportunities for young pros rather than waiting for them to emerge on the tours and signing them, I'll be more convinced of their commitment to grow the game.
 
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it seems more than a little self-serving for Norman to suggest that the tours he's trying to compete with should treat LIV as anything but a competitor.

The competition from LIV has definitely caused the other tours to wake up to issues they never felt a reason to address and that's a good thing. If/when LIV starts developmental tours that provide more opportunities for young pros rather than waiting for them to emerge on the tours and signing them, I'll be more convinced of their commitment to grow the game.
Great post, OaktonDave. Based on well-documented history, Greg Norman has never been about anything but money and himself. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but one has to take anything he says about altruism and growing the game with a huge grain of salt.

On a separate but related note, I understand that Will Ferrell is working on a comedy that will be based on the LIV-PGA situation. I can't wait for that one!
 
Great post, OaktonDave. Based on well-documented history, Greg Norman has never been about anything but money and himself. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but one has to take anything he says about altruism and growing the game with a huge grain of salt.

On a separate but related note, I understand that Will Ferrell is working on a comedy that will be based on the LIV-PGA situation. I can't wait for that one!
i disagree, actually. Norman is not an American. Fact is, about 40% of the guys currently on tour, are not Americans. So why are they here? MONEY!

These include Australians, Koreans, Spaniards, Argentina, England...in fact, 82 players from 25 countries.

My question is, why should they be loyal to a USA tour? I wouldn't expect them to be. Norman simply found more money from someplace else. And, as we are seeing, the majors are inviting anyone who qualifies and the PGA tour is putting together made-for-TV events (President's Cup, FedEx Cup, Ryder Cup, etc.).

And why wouldn't Australians be upset the PGA is taking their good players?

Fact is, we are international or we are not. You can't have it one way. If you are going to invite 82 players from other nations, why would we be upset when they leave the USA based PGA tour for yet a better tour? While I don't like it being falsely funded by Saudi money, it was really just a matter of time. Pro Golf is now a worldwide market with worldwide competitors.
 
Great post, OaktonDave. Based on well-documented history, Greg Norman has never been about anything but money and himself. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but one has to take anything he says about altruism and growing the game with a huge grain of salt.

On a separate but related note, I understand that Will Ferrell is working on a comedy that will be based on the LIV-PGA situation. I can't wait for that one!
A mentor of mine used to ask "would you trust that man with your wife or your wallet?" In Norman's case, the answer is "not only no, but h*** no!"
 
A mentor of mine used to ask "would you trust that man with your wife or your wallet?" In Norman's case, the answer is "not only no, but h*** no!"
well, I trust free markets.

the PGA tour is far better today than it was a year ago. IMHO, LIV has horrible production value but that is a matter or taste and may be better for other demographics. LIV will get better. In the meantime, lots of other people are drawing in interest which will help the game.

Arnie made golf publicly appealing. Jack made it marketable. Tiger made it compelling and more diverse. Norman may well end up making it worldwide. He may well have a greater impact of pro golf than Arnie, Jack and Tiger combined. For example, 400 million people live within a few miles of the Yangtze River. India has just surpassed China in terms of world population and now have almost 3 Billion people combined. Few of them have been exposed to the game of golf.
 
My question is, why should they be loyal to a USA tour? I wouldn't expect them to be. Norman simply found more money from someplace else. And, as we are seeing, the majors are inviting anyone who qualifies and the PGA tour is putting together made-for-TV events (President's Cup, FedEx Cup, Ryder Cup, etc.).
The events you mentioned are much older than the LIV Tour. The Ryder Cup started in '27; the President's Cup started in '94, and the Fed Ex Cup in 2007. The PGA Tour isn't "putting them together"; they've been together. The reason for the later two was draw additional fan interest apart from the majors with the claimed intent of "growing the game." Ironically, the President's Cup and Fed Ex Cup were two things some of the LIV Tour players complained about - both required them to play more and more often.

I don't particularly care if players want to move to LIV; it's their call. If it's better for them - fewer tournaments, fewer rounds, and good pay, go for it. At the same time, I don't mind if the other tours don't welcome them. They support a competitor, why would any organization treat them like they didn't?
 
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