OT: New restaurant proposed for College Avenue.....

[CF LION]

Looks like a nice (and needed) addition to the State College restaurant scene:

https://onwardstate.com/2019/07/02/...-transfer-proposal-for-former-spats-location/

 

[tboyer]

People wonder why so many PA towns don't have decent local restaurants. The PA liquor license system is why.

I don't know what it is in State College -- in suburban Philly a liquor license is $500,000, plus $100k in legal fees if you have to get approvals for a transfer like this.

You spend that much, you're not going to earn it back serving reasonably priced high quality food and wine.

There are only two ways to make it pencil out -- an upscale restaurant where you're aiming for $75 per person for food, and a bottle of wine starts at $50-60. Or a "restaurant" that is really a bar serving food -- so the bar generates the money to amortize the liquor license.

This concept of limiting the number of liquor licenses by municipality is a vestige of the post-Prohibition era. It leads to ridiculously inflated prices for liquor licenses in popular areas.

It would be so much better if PA could just create a REAL restaurant liquor license -- basically allow restaurants to serve wine and beer for a nominal licensing fee. A big part of why, say, Paris has so many great (and not expensive) restaurants is because every restaurant is allowed to serve wine. So the food is less expensive, and wine in a restaurant in France is only slightly more expensive than it would be in a wine shop.

State College will never have many decent restaurants because the liquor licenses are worth so much and the rents are so high.

 

[UncleLar]

People wonder why so many PA towns don't have decent local restaurants. The PA liquor license system is why.

I don't know what it is in State College -- in suburban Philly a liquor license is $500,000, plus $100k in legal fees if you have to get approvals for a transfer like this.

You spend that much, you're not going to earn it back serving reasonably priced high quality food and wine.

There are only two ways to make it pencil out -- an upscale restaurant where you're aiming for $75 per person for food, and a bottle of wine starts at $50-60. Or a "restaurant" that is really a bar serving food -- so the bar generates the money to amortize the liquor license.

This concept of limiting the number of liquor licenses by municipality is a vestige of the post-Prohibition era. It leads to ridiculously inflated prices for liquor licenses in popular areas.

It would be so much better if PA could just create a REAL restaurant liquor license -- basically allow restaurants to serve wine and beer for a nominal licensing fee. A big part of why, say, Paris has so many great (and not expensive) restaurants is because every restaurant is allowed to serve wine. So the food is less expensive, and wine in a restaurant in France is only slightly more expensive than it would be in a wine shop.

State College will never have many decent restaurants because the liquor licenses are worth so much and the rents are so high.

Prices have dropped a bit. 2-3 years ago they were going for $500K in the Philly area but that's fallen to a bit more than $300K now. Those higher prices were driven by the PA legislature allowing supermarkets to sell alcohol. The supermarket chains were driving up the price. That was an issue in State College too. There haven't been any restaurant licenses auctioned off in Centre County for a while. According to the LCB's website, Weis Market bought the last one at $325K in July 2017. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd bet that you could get one for a bit more than $200K now.

 

[tboyer]

Those liquor licenses auctions are nothing but a tax. You and I pay an extra dollar for every beer and wine we drink. For wine the bottle prices will be typically $4 more than what people pay in NJ or Del. The dumb thing is, all that revenue doesn't actually serve any public benefit, it goes into the pockets of someone who previously invested in a liquor license. It's idiotic beyond belief.

It's just like the taxi medallion system in Philly. Medallions got to be $50k, then $100k, then $400k -- so we were paying extremely high taxi rates plus fuel "surcharges" even when fuel prices were low. And the taxis were old, dirty and smelly, and the drivers were poorly trained immigrants making minimum wage.

Fortunately, along came Uber and Lyft and the medallion taxes were history. In NYC the medallion taxes are still around because their rates are much more competitive -- though medallion prices have crashed.

Prices have dropped a bit. 2-3 years ago they were going for $500K in the Philly area but that's fallen to a bit more than $300K now. Those higher prices were driven by the PA legislature allowing supermarkets to sell alcohol. The supermarket chains were driving up the price. That was an issue in State College too. There haven't been any restaurant licenses auctioned off in Centre County for a while. According to the LCB's website, Weis Market bought the last one at $325K in July 2017. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd bet that you could get one for a bit more than $200K now.

 

[tboyer]

But anyway, overpriced beer and wine isn't the end of the world.

The bigger problem as I see it is that it is so difficult for people to make a living in the restaurant business in Pennsylvania. There's a nice restaurant scene in Philly but nothing like it would be if not for the PLCB.

The liquor license is an insurmountable barrier for someone who wants to do a good quality neighborhood restaurant. It's one thing for Giant or Whole Foods to pay $400k for a liquor license - they have the capital. But for someone who wants to serve wine by the bottle at a 40-seat restaurant -- 400k or even 150k is out of the question.

Yes you can do BYOs, but that isn't really the answer either, because a restaurant that can't serve wine loses customers who don't want to BYO and it also loses all the wine revenue. To make a BYO work you have to charge a LOT for the food. We have a really lovely high-end Italian BYO a few blocks for us, but it is $100-150 for dinner for two. A tapas sized serving of pasta is $25-30. So if you think about it, even people who don't drink wine are paying more for their food because of Pennsylvania's 1930s-era liquor laws.

 

[LongJakk]

We've lost a bunch of small independent restaurants on the west shore of Harrisburg due to selling their licenses to grocery stores. I hate it. I'd rather have the extra restaurant choices than the "convenience" of buying beer and wine at the grocery store.

They only positive is the new brewer/distiller licenses that allow them to sell PA beer, wine and liquors along with their own products.

 

[interrobang]

New Zealand?

"Anyway, like I was sayin', sheep is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, sheep-kabobs, sheep creole, sheep gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple sheep , lemon sheep , coconut sheep , pepper sheep , sheep soup, sheep stew, sheep salad, sheep and potatoes, sheep burger, sheep sandwich. That- that's about it."

 

[Sproul]

I’m pissed we still pay 18% tax on alcohol in pa to this day to pay for the Johnstown flood recovery from 80 years ago

 

[paulrandythomas]

Looks like a nice (and needed) addition to the State College restaurant scene:

https://onwardstate.com/2019/07/02/...-transfer-proposal-for-former-spats-location/

As an SC local, there are very few good eateries here. Faccia Luna is the only never fail.

 

[RabidLion]

Looks like a nice (and needed) addition to the State College restaurant scene:

https://onwardstate.com/2019/07/02/...-transfer-proposal-for-former-spats-location/

Interesting thread. I always thought there weren't any great restaurants due to the largely student clientele and the quiet summers. That does not seem to be the case and is a real shame. I always thought an authentic NY deli would kill it in State College. Even students would pay for what it costs to make a top notch sandwich. Also, NJ does not allow the sale of beer or liquor in our supermarkets. I never miss it as our large liquor stores like Total Wine have a huge selection that the supermarkets could never match. Glad to have the licenses with our local restaurants.

 

[NovaPSULuvr]

As an SC local, there are very few good eateries here. Faccia Luna is the only never fail.

Barrel 21 has been consistent...we do need new options.

 

[Hotshoe]

Good lord I had no idea a liscense was that much. Talk about a killer for start ups. That's insanity. Wonder who thought this was a good idea?

 

[PSU Mike]

And the wine selection in the state stores and grocery stores I’ve been to in PA absolutely sucked. It was like 45 brands of $8 wine selling for $13.

 

[Agoodnap]

And the wine selection in the state stores and grocery stores I’ve been to in PA absolutely sucked. It was like 45 brands of $8 wine selling for $13.

That was 20 years ago. Try going to one of the large Premium Wine Collection stores, the ones with the whole section of premium wines. Beautiful selection and very good prices. Since all stores don't carry the same selection ask the wine specialist (yes, they have an in-store wine specialist) if he can get you a specific bottle and it will most likely be somewhere within the system.

 

[nittany119]

Interesting thread. I always thought there weren't any great restaurants due to the largely student clientele and the quiet summers. That does not seem to be the case and is a real shame. I always thought an authentic NY deli would kill it in State College. Even students would pay for what it costs to make a top notch sandwich. Also, NJ does not allow the sale of beer or liquor in our supermarkets. I never miss it as our large liquor stores like Total Wine have a huge selection that the supermarkets could never match. Glad to have the licenses with our local restaurants.

I believe you are incorrect about the alcohol sales in supermarkets in NJ, unless it’s a local law where you are. I’m in Essex County and my local Shoprite sells beer. The new Wegmans in East Hanover has a huge wine and beer selection, spirits. Same with Costco in Wayne. The best of all is Whole Foods in Paramus. I do agree about Total Wine. Their selection is overwhelming.
My town has 10 liquor licenses, determined by population size. The money is made back on the trading of these licenses, which are now going for over one million. There’s no way to make it back on just food and alcohol sales. My friend made between 150k and 200k in about 4 years due to appreciation. He made nowhere near that on the food and alcohol sales. Personally we love the byob concept here. Can’t beat it.

 

[PSU Mike]

That was 20 years ago. Try going to one of the large Premium Wine Collection stores, the ones with the whole section of premium wines. Beautiful selection and very good prices. Since all stores don't carry the same selection ask the wine specialist (yes, they have an in-store wine specialist) if he can get you a specific bottle and it will most likely be somewhere within the system.

Good to hear. I didn’t seek out anything special in terms of store. Not too worried because most of my trips to PA are usually by car, so I can just bring a few bottles along.

 

[interrobang]

Good to hear. I didn’t seek out anything special in terms of store. Not too worried because most of my trips to PA are usually by car, so I can just bring a few bottles along.

Amazing that until 2015 you could be arrested for bringing alcohol into PA. It's now decriminalized, but you're still technically supposed to get approval and pay taxes on it beforehand I think.

 

[PSU Mike]

Amazing that until 2015 you could be arrested for bringing alcohol into PA. It's now decriminalized, but you're still technically supposed to get approval and pay taxes on it beforehand I think.

There are many things I don’t miss about PA...

 

[PennsylvaniaPride]

But anyway, overpriced beer and wine isn't the end of the world.

The bigger problem as I see it is that it is so difficult for people to make a living in the restaurant business in Pennsylvania. There's a nice restaurant scene in Philly but nothing like it would be if not for the PLCB.

The liquor license is an insurmountable barrier for someone who wants to do a good quality neighborhood restaurant. It's one thing for Giant or Whole Foods to pay $400k for a liquor license - they have the capital. But for someone who wants to serve wine by the bottle at a 40-seat restaurant -- 400k or even 150k is out of the question.

Yes you can do BYOs, but that isn't really the answer either, because a restaurant that can't serve wine loses customers who don't want to BYO and it also loses all the wine revenue. To make a BYO work you have to charge a LOT for the food. We have a really lovely high-end Italian BYO a few blocks for us, but it is $100-150 for dinner for two. A tapas sized serving of pasta is $25-30. So if you think about it, even people who don't drink wine are paying more for their food because of Pennsylvania's 1930s-era liquor laws.

The PLCB= horse shit.

What’s it going to take to have them modernize their policies in a way that facilitated safe growth?

 

[PSU Mike]

The PLCB= horse shit.

What’s it going to take to have them modernize their policies in a way that facilitated safe growth?

A bunch of people threatening not to re-elect their reps and senators.

 

[Lion84]

That was 20 years ago. Try going to one of the large Premium Wine Collection stores, the ones with the whole section of premium wines. Beautiful selection and very good prices. Since all stores don't carry the same selection ask the wine specialist (yes, they have an in-store wine specialist) if he can get you a specific bottle and it will most likely be somewhere within the system.

They still are no where near as good as Total Wine for costs and try getting a case of anything from a state store.

 

[phillybillyreprise]

Will the new restaurant be:

A New College Diner?

For you kids, the Ye Olde College Diner was called the New College Diner (NCD) in the 1960’s.

 

[DrJC]

Looks like a nice (and needed) addition to the State College restaurant scene:

https://onwardstate.com/2019/07/02/...-transfer-proposal-for-former-spats-location/

Heaven's knows we need a quality restaurant in SC. There has not been a decent restaurant since Zola's. The restaurants in SC are garbage. Period. Surely not NYC quality.

 

[PennsylvaniaPride]

Heaven's knows we need a quality restaurant in SC. There has not been a decent restaurant since Zola's. The restaurants in SC are garbage. Period. Surely not NYC quality.

I'd settle for Pittsburgh or Philly quality, on a smaller scale. NYC has world class restaurant scene, up there with Tokyo, Paris, etc

 

[nittany119]

Heaven's knows we need a quality restaurant in SC. There has not been a decent restaurant since Zola's. The restaurants in SC are garbage. Period. Surely not NYC quality.

This is not new. It’s been like this ever since I started there in 1976. Far fewer choices then too.

 

[BBrown]

Interesting thread. I always thought there weren't any great restaurants due to the largely student clientele and the quiet summers. That does not seem to be the case and is a real shame. I always thought an authentic NY deli would kill it in State College. Even students would pay for what it costs to make a top notch sandwich. Also, NJ does not allow the sale of beer or liquor in our supermarkets. I never miss it as our large liquor stores like Total Wine have a huge selection that the supermarkets could never match. Glad to have the licenses with our local restaurants.

Yea I miss the old stage door deli. They had some awesome sandwiches.

 

[WestSideLion]

And the wine selection in the state stores and grocery stores I’ve been to in PA absolutely sucked. It was like 45 brands of $8 wine selling for $13.

This is a major symbolic reason why my wife and I have no interest in moving back to PA. We could find ways to get the alcohol we like - we are not really drinkers at this stage in life - but the over regulation and red tape just seems stifling in PA.

 

[BBrown]

As an SC local, there are very few good eateries here. Faccia Luna is the only never fail.

Its interesting. I think State College has a better sit down restaurant scene now than when I was a student in the mid 80's but I think we had some better
Sandwich, Subs and Pizza Places then.

The Deli has been around forever and the last time I was in it was just ok.
I've heard its not much better so thats a disappointment.
But I loved the old Stage Door Deli, Vesuvios, Bubbas, The Train Station and Cattle Car Subs, Susi Wongs. I don't even think todays Hiway Pizza is as good as it used to be.
Faccia Luna is my favorite Pizza place now.

 

[BBrown]

Interesting thread. I always thought there weren't any great restaurants due to the largely student clientele and the quiet summers. That does not seem to be the case and is a real shame. I always thought an authentic NY deli would kill it in State College. Even students would pay for what it costs to make a top notch sandwich. Also, NJ does not allow the sale of beer or liquor in our supermarkets. I never miss it as our large liquor stores like Total Wine have a huge selection that the supermarkets could never match. Glad to have the licenses with our local restaurants.

I love it when I go out west to AZ, CA and they have places like Stater Brothers, Ralph's and Albertsons and all their beer, wine and hard alcohol is cheaper than anything I get around here.

 

[BBrown]

And the wine selection in the state stores and grocery stores I’ve been to in PA absolutely sucked. It was like 45 brands of $8 wine selling for $13.

We do a lot of the labels for some of the PA wines and occasionally they give us samples. I have not been impressed with many of them. They all seem to be either too sweet or tannic (but that could just be me) the other problem with PA wines and MD wines is they are way too expensive. I can get a bottle of a blanc of some type, here at Bordy Vineyards and they start at $17.00 and go up to $40. I can get something similar but much better from Australia, New Zealand, Chile or even NY and CA much cheaper.
I found the same thing to be true with the PA wines.

 

[PSU Mike]

We do a lot of the labels for some of the PA wines and occasionally they give us samples. I have not been impressed with many of them. They all seem to be either too sweet or tannic (but that could just be me) the other problem with PA wines and MD wines is they are way too expensive. I can get a bottle of a blanc of some type, here at Bordy Vineyards and they start at $17.00 and go up to $40. I can get something similar but much better from Australia, New Zealand, Chile or even NY and CA much cheaper.
I found the same thing to be true with the PA wines.

My parents had gotten me a few different varieties from Nissley in LanCo, and a few were nice change ups - Vidal Blanc & Chambourcin among them. I did notice some inconsistency on the latter over the few years I had it.

 

[BBrown]

My parents had gotten me a few different varieties from Nissley in LanCo, and a few were nice change ups - Vidal Blanc & Chambourcin among them. I did notice some inconsistency on the latter over the few years I had it.

Loagan's View Winery is one of the fairly local ones we do labels for.
A couple others in Western MD and then here locally, Bordy Vineyards.

 

[PSU Mike]

This is a major symbolic reason why my wife and I have no interest in moving back to PA. We could find ways to get the alcohol we like - we are not really drinkers at this stage in life - but the over regulation and red tape just seems stifling in PA.

I’m not from the cultural center of PA (York), but to have so few to have any awareness/affinity for anything remotely adventurous is what does it for me. I mean things like cracking open a mid-level bourbon and seeing only two reactions: grabbing a shot glass, or reaching for the ice and coke. Why????

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

Yea I miss the old stage door deli. They had some awesome sandwiches.

I was a fan of the Marlene Dietrich which was basically The Stage Door’s version of a good Reuben. Dietrich would classify as a Broad as discussed in another thread.

 

[NovaPSULuvr]

Made a run

They still are no where near as good as Total Wine for costs and try getting a case of anything from a state store.

Made a run last week from SC to Total Wine in Wilmington....just over 6 hours round trip including my shopping time. Well worth it every few months.

 

[WestSideLion]

Made a run

Made a run last week from SC to Total Wine in Wilmington....just over 6 hours round trip including my shopping time. Well worth it every few months.

Yeah...that pretty much would be the way to go.

 

[interrobang]

Total Wine is awesome.

 

[razpsu]

People wonder why so many PA towns don't have decent local restaurants. The PA liquor license system is why.

I don't know what it is in State College -- in suburban Philly a liquor license is $500,000, plus $100k in legal fees if you have to get approvals for a transfer like this.

You spend that much, you're not going to earn it back serving reasonably priced high quality food and wine.

There are only two ways to make it pencil out -- an upscale restaurant where you're aiming for $75 per person for food, and a bottle of wine starts at $50-60. Or a "restaurant" that is really a bar serving food -- so the bar generates the money to amortize the liquor license.

This concept of limiting the number of liquor licenses by municipality is a vestige of the post-Prohibition era. It leads to ridiculously inflated prices for liquor licenses in popular areas.

It would be so much better if PA could just create a REAL restaurant liquor license -- basically allow restaurants to serve wine and beer for a nominal licensing fee. A big part of why, say, Paris has so many great (and not expensive) restaurants is because every restaurant is allowed to serve wine. So the food is less expensive, and wine in a restaurant in France is only slightly more expensive than it would be in a wine shop.

State College will never have many decent restaurants because the liquor licenses are worth so much and the rents are so high.

Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner. 100 percent right on the money.

 

[BobPSU92]

Heaven's knows we need a quality restaurant in SC. There has not been a decent restaurant since Zola's. The restaurants in SC are garbage. Period. Surely not NYC quality.

Strange that a college town of around 100,000 people wouldn’t have quality restaurants like New York City. We really need to burn State College down to the ground.

 

[tboyer]

I dont even bother with state stores for wine. Yes they have improved greatly but still suck compared with just about any other state. Selection is limited to very large producers and the price even before taxes will typically be $2 to $4 higher than NJ or NY wine shops.

Btw you can get wine shipped frim outside now. One place that does it is the Wine Library in NJ.

They still are no where near as good as Total Wine for costs and try getting a case of anything from a state store.