OT: New Yorkers (or others). Anybody see the proposed renovation
- Thread starter nits74
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That would be great, but the bigger more important project is stalled out.
The tunnels under the North River into Penn Station were built in 1910 by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Obviously they are getting old. Maintenance is a problem and the train traffic is so frequent that it is virtually impossible to get a maintenance window. Demand is such that NJT and Amtrak would love to run more trains but the tunnels are already operating at absolute maximum capacity.
Freight railroads would love to be able to run through Manhattan to reach the produce terminals in the Bronx except they can't, and the only railroad bridge across the Hudson, you have to go all the way to Albany and then back down.
The security implications, let us just say, are frightening if anything were to happen to the tunnels.
NY/NJ, the Port Authority, NJT, Metro-North, Amtrak - all of them agree that a new tunnel, probably three tracks if not four, is badly needed. What none of them agree with is - who is going to pay for it?
Meanwhile the original two-track tunnel soldiers on.
The tunnels under the North River into Penn Station were built in 1910 by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Obviously they are getting old. Maintenance is a problem and the train traffic is so frequent that it is virtually impossible to get a maintenance window. Demand is such that NJT and Amtrak would love to run more trains but the tunnels are already operating at absolute maximum capacity.
Freight railroads would love to be able to run through Manhattan to reach the produce terminals in the Bronx except they can't, and the only railroad bridge across the Hudson, you have to go all the way to Albany and then back down.
The security implications, let us just say, are frightening if anything were to happen to the tunnels.
NY/NJ, the Port Authority, NJT, Metro-North, Amtrak - all of them agree that a new tunnel, probably three tracks if not four, is badly needed. What none of them agree with is - who is going to pay for it?
Meanwhile the original two-track tunnel soldiers on.
As amazing as NYC from street level on up, it's even more so below grade - the tunnels, aqueducts, steam pipes, etc - it's all amazing.
I wonder how many tunnels could have been constructed with the 6 Trillion Dollars wasted on two wars in the Middle East and in Afghanistan?
Why not create new tunnels and then repair or retrofit existing ones when the new ones were built? I'm guessing this was the "bigger more important project" that stalled out.
Exactly what should be done. Build brand new triple tube. All tracks fully bidirectional so if you have a problem with one you can s/d for repairs. Normally for the rush you'd have two in, one out (there is incredible reverse commuting in NY/NJ).
Get the new one cooking and do a full rehab on the existing tunnel. Now you have FIVE tracks in TWO independent tunnels and you're ready for anything and you have capacity far into the future. You'll be set for another 100 years.
What did they used to teach us? Two is one, and one is none?
I'm not a New Yorker but $3 billion sounds cheap considering how vital an efficient transportation system is to the city. Contrast that with $1+ billion for a new NFL stadium which is used eight times a year plus playoffs and exists solely to make money for the team owner.
Here you go, Signore. Sorry for delay. Was away from my PC all day.
You can read more about Governor Cuomo’s proposal here.
$3 billion and 3 years is politicians talking in order to try and get it funded. Look at the Big Dig in Boston. I think that ended up take twice as long and double the original cost and everybody knew going in that it was never going to be that. Definitely need new underground transport from NJ into NYC both for people and merchant goods, but nobody wants to pay for it.
That would be great, but the bigger more important project is stalled out.
The tunnels under the North River into Penn Station were built in 1910 by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Obviously they are getting old. Maintenance is a problem and the train traffic is so frequent that it is virtually impossible to get a maintenance window. Demand is such that NJT and Amtrak would love to run more trains but the tunnels are already operating at absolute maximum capacity.
Freight railroads would love to be able to run through Manhattan to reach the produce terminals in the Bronx except they can't, and the only railroad bridge across the Hudson, you have to go all the way to Albany and then back down.
The security implications, let us just say, are frightening if anything were to happen to the tunnels.
NY/NJ, the Port Authority, NJT, Metro-North, Amtrak - all of them agree that a new tunnel, probably three tracks if not four, is badly needed. What none of them agree with is - who is going to pay for it?
Meanwhile the original two-track tunnel soldiers on.
Despite what they say I don't believe the capacity issue truly exists. As I've mentioned before they should shuttle people out of the city like a subway and then use a large station across the Hudson to link up to all the lines.
Would solve most of the issue if not all of it.
LdN
However long it takes, I bet it will be quicker than the Second Avenue Subway. It's been 96 years since that was proposed and construction on Phase I (which only runs about 30 blocks) is over 9 years and still not complete (I believe there are 4 Phases scheduled). Here's an interesting interactive timeline on that one:
https://editorial-ny.dnainfo.com/interactives/2015/06/subway-history/index.html
https://editorial-ny.dnainfo.com/interactives/2015/06/subway-history/index.html
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Nope, that would be a big mess. First of all, they're already maxed out with trains through the existing tunnels. There's only two tracks. You should see the mess when a signal fails or a train breaks down in the tunnel. To further complicate matters, Amtrak owns the tracks or tunnels or right of way... something along those lines, so their trains get priority over the NJ Transit commuter trains, even when the commuter trains have more trains and people on them.
So, you couldn't really increase capacity that way. All you'd be doing is throwing people on shuttles to move them to a big station in the Meadowlands and have them transfer trains. But it would be the same number of people, since you can't send any more trains through. And then you'd be taking a large number of people who currently have a one train ride from Manhattan to their homes, and making them switch trains. Aside from the inconvenience, it adds time to the commute. The opening of Secaucus Junction enabled many more riders to have a one train commute. That and the double decker train cars.
The biggest priority has to be more tunnels. Asshat Christie screwed that up. However, work on the station may be started (and completed) sooner because of differences in where the funding is coming from, and the Hudson Yards redevelopment program which is a mix of private and government funding. I know there's a push to get another deal on the tunnels done this year before Obama leaves office, in the event a Republican wins the Presidency.
So is there any deadline for when this all will be completed? (I didn't hear it in the presentation but fast forwarded through a lot of the BS from the presenters). Wish they'd keep it Penn Station. Empire State Station just doesn't have the same ring.
Given that the Pennsylvania Railroad doesn't run anymore, I understand it might be renamed. But I prefer Penn Station for the history.So is there any deadline for when this all will be completed? (I didn't hear it in the presentation but fast forwarded through a lot of the BS from the presenters). Wish they'd keep it Penn Station. Empire State Station just doesn't have the same ring.
Everyone in NYC laughed when we heard they want it done in 3 years. Nothing of that size gets done in 3 years in NYC, especially when the government is involved. Look how long the Freedom Tower took due to all the issues involved with public/private and insurance.
That said, Cuomo seems very fired up about this. And he's either threatened or at this point actually pulled the developer of the Hudson Yards project off of it for taking too long. So, whatever the motivation, something is going on with these infrastructure and development projects in that part of town. Maybe he sees it as his legacy, to cut through all the usual crap and make it happen. Hope he can do the same for the tunnels.
I think the Penn Station name will be preserved if I interpreted it correctly.So is there any deadline for when this all will be completed? (I didn't hear it in the presentation but fast forwarded through a lot of the BS from the presenters). Wish they'd keep it Penn Station. Empire State Station just doesn't have the same ring.
Yeah, as a non New Yorker I definitely prefer keeping Penn Station as the name. Penn Station, Grand Central, Madison Square Garden 'are' New York to me. I just couldn't see MSG renamed Bank of America Garden or some other nonsense. Same goes for Penn Station- (even if the Pennsylvania raroad doesn't run anymore).
. I totally agree with New Yorkers who laughed at 3 years. The governor gave 3 options for the Penn reno and sounded like they didn't have a developer set up yet. Can't imagine it getting done by then (much less the Long Island RR, JFK, Laguardia renovations and new train tunnel).
It's going to be a lot easier to commute when we get small personal spaceships like George Jetson
