OT: PA White Trash cities

[JWB389]

I agree about the "section 8" housing but INMO its even more than that. It maybe a Millennial issue.
The neighborhood I just moved into is relatively Middle to Upper Middle class working group with a lot of young homeowners (mid 20's to mid 30's) with 1 or 2 very young children. They all seem to have good to decent jobs but a lot of them don't care at all about what their yard or house looks like.
They have BMW's in the driveway but grass up to my knees. Its just not something on their RADAR that they care about.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It sounds like you and I live in the same neighborhood.

 

[BBrown]

It sounds like you and I live in the same neighborhood.

LOL.
Another problem, but its a side issue, is the number of houses people are using as "income" properties.
They are renting them out and the renters don't care about the yard or outside of the house and the owners are now in either
FLA or CA so they don't maintain them either.

 

[fairgambit]

Found a really good article about this yesterday - check it out: http://www.post-gazette.com/busines...h-s-economy-to-go-but-up/stories/201212230258

My family, on both sides, is from Beaver County. All of my uncles on my mother's side were either military, or steel workers (Crucible Steel, Midland) - oddly enough, my grandmother worked at Westinghouse for a number of decades after raising six children. My dad's side was a bit more educated (and bigger). Still, I would hear stories about how Midland (and Aliquippa, etc.) bars would be open all night to service workers working various shifts and how my uncles would have un-cashed payroll checks around the house because they were doing so well. The issue was that the area never pivoted - they kept thinking those industries and jobs were coming back. Since most of my family still lives there, we have a lot of functions at places like the VFW or Legion in Midland (a city doing a decent job of pivoting - started an - 'in residence' performing arts school and pumped money in to other services, notably education). Businesses are starting to pick up because of the school (coffee shops, restaurants, etc.) which has performances throughout the year. It's nice to see; I also believe there was an ATI steel plant that closed recently and put some 250 folks out of work. Reality is, if businesses are going to buy cheap, subsidized steel from China and other places, it's never coming back to the U.S.

McKees Rocks has a similar story. I can recall when I was young going shopping in the "Rocks". It had stores for men's & women's clothes, furniture, appliances, shoes, groceries, fruit merchants...and on and on. It had good jobs at places like Pressed Steel Car Company which employed 5,000. In the 30's the population was over 18,000, triple what it is today. John Kasich, the current governor of Ohio, was born and raised in McKees Rocks, as was former Penn State great Chuck Fusina. Industry has largely left, but the "Rocks" is uniquely situated because it is only 5 miles from the heart of downtown Pittsburgh. Given solid leadership, and an influx of private and public funds, it could reinvent itself. Some of that is already going on, with an Industrial Park being built on an old P&LE Railroad site. CSX is putting an Intermodal Facility there. Much more is in the early stages of development. Again today I am on a tight schedule, but I will be back in the coming weeks with more about McKees Rocks....it's past, present, and future.

 

[mn78psu83]

McKees Rocks has a similar story. I can recall when I was young going shopping in the "Rocks". It had stores for men's & women's clothes, furniture, appliances, shoes, groceries, fruit merchants...and on and on. It had good jobs at places like Pressed Steel Car Company which employed 5,000. In the 30's the population was over 18,000, triple what it is today. John Kasich, the current governor of Ohio, was born and raised in McKees Rocks, as was former Penn State great Chuck Fusina. Industry has largely left, but the "Rocks" is uniquely situated because it is only 5 miles from the heart of downtown Pittsburgh. Given solid leadership, and an influx of private and public funds, it could reinvent itself. Some of that is already going on, with an Industrial Park being built on an old P&LE Railroad site. CSX is putting an Intermodal Facility there. Much more is in the early stages of development. Again today I am on a tight schedule, but I will be back in the coming weeks with more about McKees Rocks....it's past, present, and future.

fg, I can't recall you ever being on such a roll before. Vintage!

 

[royboy]

McKees Rocks has a similar story. I can recall when I was young going shopping in the "Rocks". It had stores for men's & women's clothes, furniture, appliances, shoes, groceries, fruit merchants...and on and on. It had good jobs at places like Pressed Steel Car Company which employed 5,000. In the 30's the population was over 18,000, triple what it is today. John Kasich, the current governor of Ohio, was born and raised in McKees Rocks, as was former Penn State great Chuck Fusina. Industry has largely left, but the "Rocks" is uniquely situated because it is only 5 miles from the heart of downtown Pittsburgh. Given solid leadership, and an influx of private and public funds, it could reinvent itself. Some of that is already going on, with an Industrial Park being built on an old P&LE Railroad site. CSX is putting an Intermodal Facility there. Much more is in the early stages of development. Again today I am on a tight schedule, but I will be back in the coming weeks with more about McKees Rocks....it's past, present, and future.

thanks for the info, fair; one thing I miss about living in NC are the great towns of PA, so much variety and character (my old home town of Oakmont appears to have survived pretty well); unfortunately, some towns were dependent on major employers who left and it's a hard thing to recover from

I remember reading about Braddock doing their best to survive and make changes; how are they doing?

 

[fairgambit]

thanks for the info, fair; one thing I miss about living in NC are the great towns of PA, so much variety and character (my old home town of Oakmont appears to have survived pretty well); unfortunately, some towns were dependent on major employers who left and it's a hard thing to recover from

I remember reading about Braddock doing their best to survive and make changes; how are they doing?

Braddock has a very unique, colorful Mayor, Harvard grad John Fetterman, who has launched a number of revitalization efforts with mixed results. Fetterman has taken his town's plight to a national stage and has been on CNN, Fox, CNBC.
You might find this piece interesting: https://rustwire.com/2014/01/28/the-battle-for-braddock-pa/

 

[JWB389]

Found a really good article about this yesterday - check it out: http://www.post-gazette.com/busines...h-s-economy-to-go-but-up/stories/201212230258

That is a good article. A microcosm of much of the state. The jobs like those at the steel plants just don't exist any more. I know there are a lot of blue collar jobs in my area, but they are all $12/hour big box warehouse jobs.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

That is a good article. A microcosm of much of the state. The jobs like those at the steel plants just don't exist any more. I know there are a lot of blue collar jobs in my area, but they are all $12/hour big box warehouse jobs.

Right? Except that article was written in 1982. The key here IMO is education. The more accessible it is, the easier it will be for kids to get work where there is a demand - engineering careers, service industries (finance, accounting), information technology, HR, etc. When you take away funding for educational resources (schools, student loans, etc.) you severely limit the options of a lot of kids from poorer/working class families.

 

[southern_lion]

I grew up in Bradford...and as bad as the article is, it does not surprise me that Bradford is on the list. I'm just surprised its not higher on the list. I did get a good chuckle reading this. When you have the McKean county welfare office in Bradford you tend to have all the folks on welfare live close since they don't typically have a car to get to the office.

And fist fights...this was just a normal day. Any time you walk down a street and happen to look at somebody you get the "what you looking at? you want go?" Response. lol.

drinking beer, fist fights, and chasing chics....ahh the good old days

 

[EPC FAN]

That is a good article. A microcosm of much of the state. The jobs like those at the steel plants just don't exist any more. I know there are a lot of blue collar jobs in my area, but they are all $12/hour big box warehouse jobs.

We're doing well. I'm a Democrat who appreciates my centrist Republican Congressman, Charlie Dent. He works with local people from both sides of the aisle to get things done here.
http://lehighvalley.org/about-lehigh-valley/top-employers/

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

Found a really good article about this yesterday - check it out: http://www.post-gazette.com/busines...h-s-economy-to-go-but-up/stories/201212230258

My family, on both sides, is from Beaver County. All of my uncles on my mother's side were either military, or steel workers (Crucible Steel, Midland) - oddly enough, my grandmother worked at Westinghouse for a number of decades after raising six children. My dad's side was a bit more educated (and bigger). Still, I would hear stories about how Midland (and Aliquippa, etc.) bars would be open all night to service workers working various shifts and how my uncles would have un-cashed payroll checks around the house because they were doing so well. The issue was that the area never pivoted - they kept thinking those industries and jobs were coming back. Since most of my family still lives there, we have a lot of functions at places like the VFW or Legion in Midland (a city doing a decent job of pivoting - started an - 'in residence' performing arts school and pumped money in to other services, notably education). Businesses are starting to pick up because of the school (coffee shops, restaurants, etc.) which has performances throughout the year. It's nice to see; I also believe there was an ATI steel plant that closed recently and put some 250 folks out of work. Reality is, if businesses are going to buy cheap, subsidized steel from China and other places, it's never coming back to the U.S.

I am very familiar with the former Crucible plant. I worked for the E&C firm that dismantled the Hot Strip Mill equipment, refurbished it, shipped it to India, reinstalled it there and commissioned it (Jindal Vijayanagar Steel). I worked for a few heavy equipment E&C firms for nearly 2 decades. We upgraded and automated a lot of mills here in the USA as well.

The Crucible plant employed approximately 30,000 people in its heyday. If they had invested and upgraded and kept the plant reasonably modern, it would employ less than 500 today. That would represent a loss of 29,500 jobs instead of the 30,000. American steel is still very strong. Here is a link to a great article describing the current state of American steel production and automation... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/business/economy/steel-nucor-trump-policy.html?_r=0

The ATI plant that recently closed in Midland was on the Crucible site. ATI was the victim of investing in a brand new Pittsburgh facility right when the oil/gas downturn occurred. Here is a link describing that 1.2 Billion dollar project. http://www.post-gazette.com/busines...project-is-rolling-along/stories/201505080161

Big River Steel just invested 1.3 Billion in a new facility in Arkansas http://ualrpublicradio.org/post/big-river-steel-13-billion-game-changer-osceola-arkansas#stream/0. These new plants weren't built because the industry is dying. They don't employ many people, however. They are incredibly automated and the jobs are coveted.

 

[MtNittany]

Right? Except that article was written in 1982. The key here IMO is education. The more accessible it is, the easier it will be for kids to get work where there is a demand - engineering careers, service industries (finance, accounting), information technology, HR, etc. When you take away funding for educational resources (schools, student loans, etc.) you severely limit the options of a lot of kids from poorer/working class families.

You left out trade schools - where more of the focus needs to be imo. Mike Rowe is a smart man and he has a great message. More people need to listen to him.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

I am very familiar with the former Crucible plant. I worked for the E&C firm that dismantled the Hot Strip Mill equipment, refurbished it, shipped it to India, reinstalled it there and commissioned it (Jindal Vijayanagar Steel). I worked for a few heavy equipment E&C firms for nearly 2 decades. We upgraded and automated a lot of mills here in the USA as well.

The Crucible plant employed approximately 30,000 people in its heyday. If they had invested and upgraded and kept the plant reasonably modern, it would employ less than 500 today. That would represent a loss of 29,500 jobs instead of the 30,000. American steel is still very strong. Here is a link to a great article describing the current state of American steel production and automation... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/business/economy/steel-nucor-trump-policy.html?_r=0

The ATI plant that recently closed in Midland was on the Crucible site. ATI was the victim of investing in a brand new Pittsburgh facility right when the oil/gas downturn occurred. Here is a link describing that 1.2 Billion dollar project. http://www.post-gazette.com/busines...project-is-rolling-along/stories/201505080161

Big River Steel just invested 1.3 Billion in a new facility in Arkansas http://ualrpublicradio.org/post/big-river-steel-13-billion-game-changer-osceola-arkansas#stream/0. These new plants weren't built because the industry is dying. They don't employ many people, however. They are incredibly automated and the jobs are coveted.

Thanks for sharing; interesting insight. My point was less about the health of the industry and more about how regions/towns/people responded to the departure of the industry. And while it's encouraging to see development and investment in steel, it's still a far cry from what it once was.

You left out trade schools - where more of the focus needs to be imo. Mike Rowe is a smart man and he has a great message. More people need to listen to him.

Agree - European model is a great example of this.

 

[Norm Petersin]

There are missing Hazleton

 

[humpydudas19]

I am very familiar with the former Crucible plant. I worked for the E&C firm that dismantled the Hot Strip Mill equipment, refurbished it, shipped it to India, reinstalled it there and commissioned it (Jindal Vijayanagar Steel). I worked for a few heavy equipment E&C firms for nearly 2 decades. We upgraded and automated a lot of mills here in the USA as well.

The Crucible plant employed approximately 30,000 people in its heyday. If they had invested and upgraded and kept the plant reasonably modern, it would employ less than 500 today. That would represent a loss of 29,500 jobs instead of the 30,000. American steel is still very strong. Here is a link to a great article describing the current state of American steel production and automation... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/business/economy/steel-nucor-trump-policy.html?_r=0

The ATI plant that recently closed in Midland was on the Crucible site. ATI was the victim of investing in a brand new Pittsburgh facility right when the oil/gas downturn occurred. Here is a link describing that 1.2 Billion dollar project. http://www.post-gazette.com/busines...project-is-rolling-along/stories/201505080161

Big River Steel just invested 1.3 Billion in a new facility in Arkansas http://ualrpublicradio.org/post/big-river-steel-13-billion-game-changer-osceola-arkansas#stream/0. These new plants weren't built because the industry is dying. They don't employ many people, however. They are incredibly automated and the jobs are coveted.

Let's see if I can do this justice. Starting with Dave Roderick, USX started dumping their US operations. They invested in the white elephant, Marathon Oil, instead of updating their operations. They whined about "foreign steel", but they had secretly invested in the operations, especially in Italy.

Another white elephant was "flawed steel". They would say you have to take say five thousand plates, 500 of which are defective. Maybe the customer only wanted 2500. They were screwing their own customer bases. The Japanese and Chinese would say we'll sell you the amount you want, and each one will be the same quality.

Dave Roderick, and others before him were assholes. They gave in to ever increasing union demands, while screwing their customers. The wolf finally came, see the book of the same name. They tried blaming the unions which was bullshit. Management had an active part in the destruction of the industry.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

Thanks for sharing; interesting insight. My point was less about the health of the industry and more about how regions/towns/people responded to the departure of the industry. And while it's encouraging to see development and investment in steel, it's still a far cry from what it once was.



Agree - European model is a great example of this.

I understand your points but the mills don't offer enough jobs to maintain those old communities such as Mckeesport and Midland. Both communities had Main Streets with every imaginable store right there. Now those main streets are shells of their former selves.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

Let's see if I can do this justice. Starting with Dave Roderick, USX started dumping their US operations. They invested in the white elephant, Marathon Oil, instead of updating their operations. They whined about "foreign steel", but they had secretly invested in the operations, especially in Italy.

Another white elephant was "flawed steel". They would say you have to take say five thousand plates, 500 of which are defective. Maybe the customer only wanted 2500. They were screwing their own customer bases. The Japanese and Chinese would say we'll sell you the amount you want, and each one will be the same quality.

Dave Roderick, and others before him were assholes. They gave in to ever increasing union demands, while screwing their customers. The wolf finally came, see the book of the same name. They tried blaming the unions which was bullshit. Management had an active part in the destruction of the industry.

Got it. Read the book And the Wolf Finally Came. It's old but does a great job describing the decline of the OLD steel industry. A lot of great socioeconomic insight as well.

 

[CentrevilleLion]

thanks for the info, fair; one thing I miss about living in NC are the great towns of PA, so much variety and character (my old home town of Oakmont appears to have survived pretty well); unfortunately, some towns were dependent on major employers who left and it's a hard thing to recover from

I remember reading about Braddock doing their best to survive and make changes; how are they doing?

Some of the streets on the hill near OCC are amazingly beautiful.

 

[JWB389]

We're doing well. I'm a Democrat who appreciates my centrist Republican Congressman, Charlie Dent. He works with local people from both sides of the aisle to get things done here.
http://lehighvalley.org/about-lehigh-valley/top-employers/

Been in the Lehigh Valley since '91 in what is now Cartwright's region and I've changed jobs 4 times due to closings. I worked for 2 Lehigh Valley icons that have since moved on in some form. Thankfully I have always come out better than the previous job. My personal observation is that the 2 sectors listed at the bottom of the link are growing (obviously along with Healthcare), but they are very low entry level jobs in material handling. There may be one or 2 high level manager jobs on site, but that's it.

Dent is a good man by the way. If you ever want to meet for a beer, I'm sure we could talk for hours.

 

[Pennsy_Kraken]

I understand your points but the mills don't offer enough jobs to maintain those old communities such as Mckeesport and Midland. Both communities had Main Streets with every imaginable store right there. Now those main streets are shells of their former selves.

Exactly, modern steel plants are far more automated and the amount of labor per unit is a fraction of what it used to be in today's computer automated presses which control both temperature and pressure. The days of using two miles of presses along a river to get sheet steel ended decades and decades ago.

 

[colt21]

I can take it. I don't need to cry, whine, and holler "racism" that two of the top 10 cities are my home base; Pottsville & Shamokin. However, they're considered bastions of dignity in that area compared to the smaller surrounding communities. Police blotters are filled with heroin arrests and domestic issues every day. Take a ride through Shenandoah, Mahanoy City, Tamaqua any given weekday early afternoon and take notice to the able bodied young people hanging around drinking quarts of Yuengling on their broken down stoops. They don't work. They just wait for their government cheese or they dabble in various crimes.

Im from the area too

I agree with the second part of your comments - the only reason those other towns aren't on the "list" is baecause they aren't "cities".

However, I would hardly consider Pottsville and Shamokin as being "considered bastions of dignity" in comparison!

 

[colt21]

LOL.
Another problem, but its a side issue, is the number of houses people are using as "income" properties.
They are renting them out and the renters don't care about the yard or outside of the house and the owners are now in either
FLA or CA so they don't maintain them either.

Absentee Renters are a huge issue !!

As I lay in bed typing this wondering why not three feet from my house is a house with somewhere between 2-3 families living in it with 20,000 cars and smoking a million packs of cigarettes with apparently one job between them can live there while the owner lives in a very nice house down near Harrisburg

 

[NelsonMunce]

Having grown up on the edge of York I have to say that, regardless of whether you disagree with the labels used, it's not a great place overall.

If I were granted one wish professionally in my remaining 15 years it would be to be part of a group that pushed York to reach its potential. It's an uphill battle.

York isn't that bad. I was impressed on a recent drive through w/ the cool restaurants/ bars in the downtown area. Seems like they're using Lancaster as a model. The ball park is a nice experience as well. Unfortunately, as we all know for many years, it is a pipeline to Baltimore.

 

[PSU Mike]

York isn't that bad. I was impressed on a recent drive through w/ the cool restaurants/ bars in the downtown area. Seems like they're using Lancaster as a model. The ball park is a nice experience as well. Unfortunately, as we all know for many years, it is a pipeline to Baltimore.

The blocks and blocks of brick row homes would be great if fixed up like ones in Baltimore or DC. The frame/sided ones not so much.