OT: Seventy years ago today: Trinity, the first atomic bomb test.

[LionJim]

As told by I.I. Rabi, from Richard Rhodes' "The Making of the Atomic Bomb:"

"We were lying there, very tense, in the early dawn, and there were just a few streaks of gold in the east; you could see your neighbor very dimly. Those ten seconds were the longest ten seconds that I have ever experienced. Suddenly, there was an enormous flash of light, the brightest light I have ever seen or that I think anyone has ever seen. It blasted; it pounced; it bored its way right through you. It was a vision which was seen with more than the eye. It was seen to last forever. you would wish it would stop; altogether it lasted about two seconds. Finally it was over, diminishing, and we looked toward the place where the bomb had been; there was a enormous ball of fire which grew and grew and it rolled as it grew; it went up into the air, in yellow flashes and into scarlet and green. It looked menacing. It seemed to come toward one.
A new thing had just been born; a new control; a new understanding of man, which man had acquired over nature."

 

[Michael.Felli]

Interesting, you would choose Rabi to quote.

I mention him, from time-to-time when I explain the true horror of a nuclear war.

He mentioned how as a society, we are Americans. But, a nuclear war destroys society. We would become, then, a mob - no different than any mob.

We would regress to something like "Lord of the Flies".

That always stayed with me....all these years.

 

[royboy]

Jim, you're a science guy with a social conscience. What do you think of the ethical dilemmas that some of the Project Manhattan scientists (or other prominent scientists) expressed about creating such a powerful weapon that could wipe out cities and hundreds of thousands of civilians at one time?

 

[LionJim]

Jim, you're a science guy with a social conscience. What do you think of the ethical dilemmas that some of the Project Manhattan scientists (or other prominent scientists) expressed about creating such a powerful weapon that could wipe out cities and hundreds of thousands of civilians at one time?

Seeing Trinity, Oppenheimer said, quoting the Bhadgavad Gita, "Now I have become death, the destroyer of worlds."

It was just a matter of time before someone would have designed a bomb. There was a very real risk of Germany getting the bomb so the Manhattan Project was, first and foremost, a race to develop the bomb before Germany did. (There is a line of thought that says Heisenberg deliberately exaggerated what it would take for Germany to build a bomb so that they never made this a priority; I do not believe this story.) Once the bomb was built, using it on Japan was (in hindsight at the very least) a no-brainer; the Japanese, being who they were, would have fought to the bitter end. (There is another line of thought that says that there was so little communication coming out of Hiroshima after the bomb that the Japanese leaders didn't quite understand the implications of what had just happened and so they dithered and then Nagasaki happened; I find this plausible.) I do believe that the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction has so far prevented World War III, but I think it's a matter of time before some rogue bomb is developed. It was all bound to happen one way or another.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Seeing Trinity, Oppenheimer said, quoting the Bhadgavad Gita, "Now I have become death, the destroyer of worlds."

It was just a matter of time before someone would have designed a bomb. There was a very real risk of Germany getting the bomb so the Manhattan Project was, first and foremost, a race to develop the bomb before Germany did. (There is a line of thought that says Heisenberg deliberately exaggerated what it would take for Germany to build a bomb so that they never made this a priority; I do not believe this story.) Once the bomb was built, using it on Japan was (in hindsight at the very least) a no-brainer; the Japanese, being who they were, would have fought to the bitter end. (There is another line of thought that says that there was so little communication coming out of Hiroshima after the bomb that the Japanese leaders didn't quite understand the implications of what had just happened and so they dithered and then Nagasaki happened; I find this plausible.) I do believe that the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction has so far prevented World War III, but I think it's a matter of time before some rogue bomb is developed. It was all bound to happen one way or another.

----
One thing I always wondered...did we have any more bombs ready to drop? The two used, Fat Man and Little Boy, were different designs implying they were one-offs and perhaps rushed. I saw a special a few years ago that said it would have been several months before a third bomb was ready. If so, good thing the Japs didn't know that.

Also, once saw a PBS program about a mysterious dinner, I think in Helsinki, between the top German nuclear scientist and one from the Allies. No one ever found out what was the purpose or what was discussed. It was speculated that the German gave technical issues to the Allies, others think it was agreed for him to stall the German efforts.

 

[LionJim]

----
One thing I always wondered...did we have any more bombs ready to drop? The two used, Fat Man and Little Boy, were different designs implying they were one-offs and perhaps rushed. I saw a special a few years ago that said it would have been several months before a third bomb was ready. If so, good thing the Japs didn't know that.

Also, once saw a PBS program about a mysterious dinner, I think in Helsinki, between the top German nuclear scientist and one from the Allies. No one ever found out what was the purpose or what was discussed. It was speculated that the German gave technical issues to the Allies, others think it was agreed for him to stall the German efforts.

Yeah, there were only the two bombs. I'd love to learn more about the Helsinki thing, will do some research there, thanks for the heads up.

 

[LionJim]

----
One thing I always wondered...did we have any more bombs ready to drop? The two used, Fat Man and Little Boy, were different designs implying they were one-offs and perhaps rushed. I saw a special a few years ago that said it would have been several months before a third bomb was ready. If so, good thing the Japs didn't know that.

Also, once saw a PBS program about a mysterious dinner, I think in Helsinki, between the top German nuclear scientist and one from the Allies. No one ever found out what was the purpose or what was discussed. It was speculated that the German gave technical issues to the Allies, others think it was agreed for him to stall the German efforts.

Meister, is it possible you're thinking about the September 1941 meeting between Heisenberg and Neils Bohr in Copenhagen? Heisenberg's biographer David C. Cassidy has this to say about the meeting: "What he (Heisenberg) wanted from Bohr was for Bohr to use his influence to prevent Allied scientists, who were surely far behind the Germans (at that time) from working toward building a bomb that could be used against Germany." https://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/pdf/heisenberg_bohr1941.pdf

Bohr and Heisenberg had been very close and but after this they never saw each other again.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Meister, is it possible you're thinking about the September 1941 meeting between Heisenberg and Neils Bohr in Copenhagen? Heisenberg's biographer David C. Cassidy has this to say about the meeting: "What he (Heisenberg) wanted from Bohr was for Bohr to use his influence to prevent Allied scientists, who were surely far behind the Germans (at that time) from working toward building a bomb that could be used against Germany." https://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/pdf/heisenberg_bohr1941.pdf

Bohr and Heisenberg had been very close and but after this they never saw each other again.

-----

LinJim; Thats the meeting. I knew it was a Scandinavian country.

 

[TheGLOV]

As told by I.I. Rabi, from Richard Rhodes' "The Making of the Atomic Bomb:"

"We were lying there, very tense, in the early dawn, and there were just a few streaks of gold in the east; you could see your neighbor very dimly. Those ten seconds were the longest ten seconds that I have ever experienced. Suddenly, there was an enormous flash of light, the brightest light I have ever seen or that I think anyone has ever seen. It blasted; it pounced; it bored its way right through you. It was a vision which was seen with more than the eye. It was seen to last forever. you would wish it would stop; altogether it lasted about two seconds. Finally it was over, diminishing, and we looked toward the place where the bomb had been; there was a enormous ball of fire which grew and grew and it rolled as it grew; it went up into the air, in yellow flashes and into scarlet and green. It looked menacing. It seemed to come toward one.
A new thing had just been born; a new control; a new understanding of man, which man had acquired over nature."

 

[Leo Ridens]

Any more ready?...I believe the answer is no, after Nagasaki we were out. We were gearing up for the production of the plutonium implosion weapons (Nagasaki bombs). They weren't scheduled to be ready for delivery to the theatre until November of '45 just prior to the kickoff of Operation Olympic(Kiyushu).

It is interesting that you brought this up because the Japanese high command was having that exact debate just after the Hiroshima detonation. The militarists kept saying "there is no way that the US has any more of this device....stay the course" and just when they were making that case we dropped the Nagasaki bomb which completely shot their argument.

Thanks to their intelligence network, the Soviets also knew that we had only enough material for a few bombs. I recall a story about one of our diplomats talking to his Soviet counterpart and saying "We could have annihilated you after WWII but didn't" and the Soviet replied, "No you couldn't have; you only had enough fissile material for two or three more bombs", referring to the late 1940s time frame, before both sides ramped up fully for the nuclear arms race.

 

[ericstratton-rushchairman]

Nothing has dramatically decreased the world wide death count caused by inter-country conflict than the creation of the nuclear weapon. Global causalities as a percentage of total population caused by war steadily increased through the centuries until mid 20th century... where it has dropped off considerably and maintained relatively constant the last 60 years. I doubt strongly there would have been no overt conflict between the west and The Soviet Union had nuclear weapons not existed.

 

[TheGLOV]

Nothing has dramatically decreased the world wide death count caused by inter-country conflict than the creation of the nuclear weapon. Global causalities as a percentage of total population caused by war steadily increased through the centuries until mid 20th century... where it has dropped off considerably and maintained relatively constant the last 60 years. I doubt strongly there would have been no overt conflict between the west and The Soviet Union had nuclear weapons not existed.

Thanks to the Rosenberg's & others, was it??

 

[The Spin Meister]

Meister, is it possible you're thinking about the September 1941 meeting between Heisenberg and Neils Bohr in Copenhagen? Heisenberg's biographer David C. Cassidy has this to say about the meeting: "What he (Heisenberg) wanted from Bohr was for Bohr to use his influence to prevent Allied scientists, who were surely far behind the Germans (at that time) from working toward building a bomb that could be used against Germany." https://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/pdf/heisenberg_bohr1941.pdf

Bohr and Heisenberg had been very close and but after this they never saw each other again.

-----
After reading that article I find it hard to believe that Heisenberg's goal was to have Bohr delay the Manhattan Project. First, he had to know noting he said would make a difference. And even if he convinced Bohr, he(Bohr) would have little influence to delay the entire project . Just doesn't make sense.

 

[LionJim]

-----
After reading that article I find it hard to believe that Heisenberg's goal was to have Bohr delay the Manhattan Project. First, he had to know noting he said would make a difference. And even if he convinced Bohr, he(Bohr) would have little influence to delay the entire project . Just doesn't make sense.

Yeah, you got a point. Part of the issue in trying to understand all this is that Bohr's papers on this meeting were released only in 2002. I believe it's because, like I said, Bohr and Heisenberg had been very close and that it must have been a very painful meeting for Bohr, and probably for Heisenberg as well. Here's another link:

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-copenhagen-meeting-of-heisenberg-and-bohr/

 

[The Spin Meister]

Yeah, you got a point. Part of the issue in trying to understand all this is that Bohr's papers on this meeting were released only in 2002. I believe it's because, like I said, Bohr and Heisenberg had been very close and that it must have been a very painful meeting for Bohr, and probably for Heisenberg as well. Here's another link:

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-copenhagen-meeting-of-heisenberg-and-bohr/

---

I'm guessing that each tried to convince the other to switch sides. Coulda got ugly over the death and destruction involved. And seeing that Heisenberg was firm in working with the Nazis would have spoiled any friendship even if Heisenberg said he didn't back all Nazi policies. Just working with those scum 'in the interest of science' was despicable.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Me again....Sorry, I'm a bit of a history geek.

I regularly listen to a podcast called "Radio Lab"...awesome podcast. About a year or so they did this episode called "Double Blasted". It was about this guy, I think he was an engineer at Mitsubishi, that was one of a few people to have survived BOTH atomic blasts. An incredible story. You have to listen to this.

http://www.radiolab.org/story/223276-double-blasted/

----
I got blasted every weekend at PSU and no one ever wrote a book about me!

JK....interesting article. Amazing he survived both!

 

[TheGLOV]

----
I got blasted every weekend at PSU and no one ever wrote a book about me!

JK....interesting article. Amazing he survived both!

I will! But it probably won't be a best seller!! LOL!!

 

[The Spin Meister]

I will! But it probably won't be a best seller!! LOL!!

------
Sadly, it would be sold as a sleep aid!!!!!

 

[delcoLion]

FWIW, I recently watched an old "American Experience" on the war in the Pacific and they went into great detail on the behind the scenes turmoil inside the Japanese regime. Hirohito wasn't such a wallflower as many documentaries would portray him. One thing is bright and shining though. The entire regime (military & monarchy) were scared sh!tless about Russians. More so than they were of the Americans....go figure. The advent of the atomic bomb and the Russian invasion of Mongolia more or less moved up their time frame for negotiating a peace/capitulating. Had the Russians not entered the war then they would have fought to the last in a US invasion....until we had lost so many American lives that we acquiesced to their demands to negotiate.

Estimates of our losses were being updated all throughout the Summer of '45 as we continued to see increases of Japanese divisions on the invasion island. Finally, by August, our loss estimates were so mindboggling that our military people were shaking.

People forget that the American public was starting to get a little edgy about the war. They wanted this thing over with and the politicians were pretty sensitive to it.

The Japanese regime had a strong sense of all of this and that was the reason why they wanted to fight to the last. The Russian entrance blew their entire calculus and forced their hand earlier than they were ready.

In the end...Paul Fussell nails it "Thank God For the Atom Bomb"

I recall reading something a long time ago that the Japanese and Russians had clashes along the China area held by the Japanese in the late '30s and the Russians kicked their butts pretty good, so the Japanese left them alone after that, making no further incursions into Russian territory. The Japanese surrendered shortly after Russia entered the war against them early August 1945, so both of those facts added together gives a lot of legitimacy to your observation.