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tboyer

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Sep 25, 2002
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This is an old article but it was new to me at least. Executive summary: Portugal used to have the worst heroin problem in Europe. Then they decriminalized and treated it as a public health problem. Now, 15 years after decriminalization, their rate of drug overdose death is 3 per million population.

https://mic.com/articles/120403/14-...y-portugal-s-experiment-has-worked#.PYfU9u2Rp

By contrast, the rate in the U.S. is going to be close to 300 per million population this year. That is almost 100 times as great as the Portugal rate.

Of course, the U.S. will never try decriminalization because in this country our leadership is stupid and pig-headed and addicted to all the money that the drug war brings in. The DEA and National Institute on Drug Abuse are just the perfect examples of how sometimes government agencies don't actually want to solve the problem they were created to solve -- because being ineffective brings in a pretty good paycheck!
 
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tboyer said:
This is an old article but it was new to me at least. Executive summary: Portugal used to have the worst heroin problem in Europe. Then they decriminalized and treated it as a public health problem. Now, 15 years after decriminalization, their rate of drug overdose death is 3 per million population.

https://mic.com/articles/120403/14-...y-portugal-s-experiment-has-worked#.PYfU9u2Rp

By contrast, the rate in the U.S. is going to be close to 300 per million population this year. That is almost 100 times as great as the Portugal rate.

Of course, the U.S. will never try decriminalization because in this country our leadership is stupid and pig-headed and addicted to all the money that the drug war brings in. The DEA and National Institute on Drug Abuse are just the perfect examples of how sometimes government agencies don't actually want to solve the problem they were created to solve -- because being ineffective brings in a pretty good paycheck!
Click to expand...

Are Portuguese physicians prescribing opioids at the same rate as American physicians?
 
Unfortunately, many social behavior patterns of the Europeans, do not carry over to the USA. Opioid RX's are minimal in Euro zone compared to USA. USA population is unwilling to tolerate any level of pain as acceptable. Doctors and hospitals have been sued for poor pain control by patients. Yada yada yada.
 
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Still in State College said:
It is preventing deaths but is it preventing usage? Is giving in and saying people are going to be addicts so let's help the addict survive really an answer to drug abuse?
Click to expand...

Many people who were heroin addicts when they are young grow out of the addiction if they make it through alive. The problem today is powerful synthetics are killing them before they get that chance.

Yes, especially if you look at drug addiction as a development disorder.

A new study from Yale suggests that drug addiction should be thought of as a developmental disorder, because the changing circuitry of teenagers' brains appears to leave them especially vulnerable to the effects of drugs and alcohol.

Dr. R. Andrew Chambers of the Yale School of Medicine, lead author of the article, said addictive drugs worked by stimulating parts of the brain that are changing rapidly in adolescence.

In particular, Dr. Chambers said, the drugs tap into a neural imbalance that may underlie teenagers' affinity for impulsive and risky behavior. The circuitry that releases chemicals that associate novel experiences with the motivation to repeat them develops far more quickly in adolescence than the mechanisms that inhibit urges and impulses.

As a result, he said, teenagers are not only more likely to experiment with drugs than other groups, but the experience also has more profound effects on the brain -- and sometimes permanent ones.

The article, published in the June issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry, was based on a review of 140 earlier studies. Dr. Chambers wrote that although it had long been known that most addicts began using drugs in adolescence, most research into the mechanisms of addictions or treatment focused on adults.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/24/health/drug-addiction-as-a-developmental-disorder.html
 
Still in State College said:
It is preventing deaths but is it preventing usage? Is giving in and saying people are going to be addicts so let's help the addict survive really an answer to drug abuse?
Click to expand...
I agree that there are more questions to be answered but in obvious to everyone except those who gain through funding it the war on drugs is not working. Same with the draconian thinking that a wall is going to stop it. We keep repeating the same failed policies.
 
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tboyer said:
This is an old article but it was new to me at least. Executive summary: Portugal used to have the worst heroin problem in Europe. Then they decriminalized and treated it as a public health problem. Now, 15 years after decriminalization, their rate of drug overdose death is 3 per million population.

https://mic.com/articles/120403/14-...y-portugal-s-experiment-has-worked#.PYfU9u2Rp

By contrast, the rate in the U.S. is going to be close to 300 per million population this year. That is almost 100 times as great as the Portugal rate.

Of course, the U.S. will never try decriminalization because in this country our leadership is stupid and pig-headed and addicted to all the money that the drug war brings in. The DEA and National Institute on Drug Abuse are just the perfect examples of how sometimes government agencies don't actually want to solve the problem they were created to solve -- because being ineffective brings in a pretty good paycheck!
Click to expand...


Sounds like they did not really decriminalize drugs. Can you explain what happens to people caught with MORE than a ten day supply? Jail??? Why did they say that people caught with less than 10 day supply usually don't go to jail?

What is your plan for violent criminals? Will you decriminalize violence? I have an offer, we will decriminalize if you agree to the death penalty for violence? You on board or are you afraid the druggies will still commit violent crimes? If you think your plan will work then you should not be afraid to agree to the death penalty.
 
voltz99 said:
Sounds like they did not really decriminalize drugs. Can you explain what happens to people caught with MORE than a ten day supply? Jail??? Why did they say that people caught with less than 10 day supply usually don't go to jail?

What is your plan for violent criminals? Will you decriminalize violence? I have an offer, we will decriminalize if you agree to the death penalty for violence? You on board or are you afraid the druggies will still commit violent crimes? If you think your plan will work then you should not be afraid to agree to the death penalty.
Click to expand...

Do deep thoughts hurt your head?
 
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Still in State College said:
It is preventing deaths but is it preventing usage? Is giving in and saying people are going to be addicts so let's help the addict survive really an answer to drug abuse?
Click to expand...

It's counterintuitive, but "help the addict survive" should absolutely be the strategy. One of the little known things about addiction is that majority of addicts DO eventually overcome it. Eventually they get sick of being addicts and seek treatment. So, if you can manage to keep them from killing themselves, eventually, maybe years later, you get someone who is a productive member of society. As bad as opiate addiction is, the notion that every heroin user eventually ODs and dies is wrong. Most actually make it. The goal of policy should be about helping them make it, not punishment. (Not that they don't DESERVE punishment -- of course they made horrible decisions and hurt lots of people. But punishing them doesn't help them overcome the addiction).

Our current policy toward drug drug addiction -- arrests, jails -- contributes hugely to addict deaths. 1 -- no one calls 911 when people OD. and 2 -- addicts have an even harder time getting their lives together with a criminal record, so when they need a job, they turn to the one person who has no problem hiring people with criminal records -- the local drug distribution ring.
 
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voltz99 said:
Sounds like they did not really decriminalize drugs. Can you explain what happens to people caught with MORE than a ten day supply? Jail??? Why did they say that people caught with less than 10 day supply usually don't go to jail?

What is your plan for violent criminals? Will you decriminalize violence? I have an offer, we will decriminalize if you agree to the death penalty for violence? You on board or are you afraid the druggies will still commit violent crimes? If you think your plan will work then you should not be afraid to agree to the death penalty.
Click to expand...

1) Drugs are still illegal in Portugal. And dealers are still arrested -- but not so much users.

2) Has anybody anywhere called for decriminalizing violence? I didn't know that was on the table. I personally am for LONG prison sentences for violence. I want dangerous people off the street.

3) As for the death penalty for drug dealers, lots of people on this board seem to like the idea. But think about it.

Say you try the Hitler approach, arrest a million drug dealers and send them all to concentration camps and gas them. Leaving aside the fact that you would go down in history as the American Hitler, would it really solve the problem? Would people stop buying heroin? Or would you simply get a million new drug dealers tomorrow? I am certain of one thing, if you started executing drug dealers, drug dealers would acquire the best guns money can buy (their constitutional right!), and a lot more police would die trying to arrest them.

Anyway, as we speak, there are hundreds, probably thousands, of people from all over the Philly suburbs and New Jersey driving their SUVs to Kensington to buy heroin. If you've been paying attention, Kensington is not a hellhole because of the people who live there but because all of all the drug "tourists."

You could gas everybody in Kensington but I suspect the drug markets would be back in full operation in a few days.

Maybe start putting the white suburbanites in their SUVs to death? Now that might accomplish something.
 
tboyer said:
1) Drugs are still illegal in Portugal. And dealers are still arrested -- but not so much users.

2) Has anybody anywhere called for decriminalizing violence? I didn't know that was on the table. I personally am for LONG prison sentences for violence. I want dangerous people off the street.

3) As for the death penalty for drug dealers, lots of people on this board seem to like the idea. But think about it.

Say you try the Hitler approach, arrest a million drug dealers and send them all to concentration camps and gas them. Leaving aside the fact that you would go down in history as the American Hitler, would it really solve the problem? Would people stop buying heroin? Or would you simply get a million new drug dealers tomorrow? I am certain of one thing, if you started executing drug dealers, drug dealers would acquire the best guns money can buy (their constitutional right!), and a lot more police would die trying to arrest them.

Anyway, as we speak, there are hundreds, probably thousands, of people from all over the Philly suburbs and New Jersey driving their SUVs to Kensington to buy heroin. If you've been paying attention, Kensington is not a hellhole because of the people who live there but because all of all the drug "tourists."

You could gas everybody in Kensington but I suspect the drug markets would be back in full operation in a few days.

Maybe start putting the white suburbanites in their SUVs to death? Now that might accomplish something.
Click to expand...

1. The USA is not much different. Plenty of users not going to jail. YOur example of drug tourists in Kensington makes the point.

2. Plenty of violent crime is drug related. Will you support tougher punishment for people that break the new laws that you propose?

Kensington uses the Portugal approach. Drugs are pretty much legal there. In the burbs they arrest drug users. It sounds like you are from Kensington. YOu went from defending the inner city druggies to proposing the death penalty for the suburban druggies. If you want to support the death penalty then fine with me.
 
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KnightSlayer said:
Do deep thoughts hurt your head?
Click to expand...

Very close to a quote from Samuel Johnson (one of my favorite wits) to his biographer James Boswell:

“Nay, Sir, it was not the WINE that made your head ache, but the SENSE that I put into it'
'What, Sir! will sense make the head ache?'
'Yes, Sir, when it is not used to it.”
 
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tboyer said:
This is an old article but it was new to me at least. Executive summary: Portugal used to have the worst heroin problem in Europe. Then they decriminalized and treated it as a public health problem. Now, 15 years after decriminalization, their rate of drug overdose death is 3 per million population.

https://mic.com/articles/120403/14-...y-portugal-s-experiment-has-worked#.PYfU9u2Rp

By contrast, the rate in the U.S. is going to be close to 300 per million population this year. That is almost 100 times as great as the Portugal rate.

Of course, the U.S. will never try decriminalization because in this country our leadership is stupid and pig-headed and addicted to all the money that the drug war brings in. The DEA and National Institute on Drug Abuse are just the perfect examples of how sometimes government agencies don't actually want to solve the problem they were created to solve -- because being ineffective brings in a pretty good paycheck!
Click to expand...


What is the crime rate for drugs in Kensington vs Lower Merion? You propose expanding the Kensington model.
 
voltz99 said:
1. The USA is not much different. Plenty of users not going to jail. YOur example of drug tourists in Kensington makes the point.

2. Plenty of violent crime is drug related. Will you support tougher punishment for people that break the new laws that you propose?

Kensington uses the Portugal approach. Drugs are pretty much legal there. In the burbs they arrest drug users.
Click to expand...

Actually, drug users are much less likely to be arrested in the burbs and rural areas. All I'm suggesting is that whatever we're doing, the policy isn't working. 100,000 people are going to die this year -- 100 times the OD death rate as Portugal. If you want that 100,000 to get to 200,000, I'd suggest you support the U.S. continuing its current approach.
 
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voltz99 said:
What is the crime rate for drugs in Kensington vs Lower Merion? You propose expanding the Kensington model.
Click to expand...

You asked a bunch of questions and then made some stupid offer about the death penalty for violent crimes. You're not a serious person and it appears you have very little depth in your thought process. Violent crimes during prohibition weren't about the alcohol. They were about the money. Same for the drug trade. The main factor behind the violence is the annual 100 billion dollars up for grabs in the black market drug trade.
 
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tboyer said:
Actually, drug users are much less likely to be arrested in the burbs and rural areas. All I'm suggesting is that whatever we're doing, the policy isn't working. 100,000 people are going to die this year -- 100 times the OD death rate as Portugal. If you want that 100,000 to get to 200,000, I'd suggest you support the U.S. continuing its current approach.
Click to expand...


That is because the burbs crack down on druggies so the druggies go to Kensington.

The policies in Kensington are not working. THe policies in Villanova, Lower Merion and most of the burbs are working great. You want to expand the policies of Kensington.

th
 
voltz99 said:
What is the crime rate for drugs in Kensington vs Lower Merion? You propose expanding the Kensington model.
Click to expand...

Clearly this conversation keeps falling into confusion so it's not a great use of time for either of us. I'm out after this.

I don't know where you got this idea of "Kensington model." I only brought up Kensington as an example of an urban neighborhood that has been harmed -- not by the people who live there, but by all the drug tourists who go there to shoot up and die. Kensington is a model of what NOT to do. Fortunately because of all the negative publicity the greater Phila community is starting to at least take the problem seriously.
 
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KnightSlayer said:
You asked a bunch of questions and then made some stupid offer about the death penalty for violent crimes. You're not a serious person and it appears you have very little depth in your thought process. Violent crimes during prohibition weren't about the alcohol. They were about the money. Same for the drug trade. The main factor behind the violence is the annual 100 billion dollars up for grabs in the black market drug trade.
Click to expand...


I am making an offer to eliminate the black market and legalize. Will you support the death penalty for violent crimes AFTER your plan fails? You are hedging your bet because you KNOW your plan will fail.
 
tboyer said:
This is an old article but it was new to me at least. Executive summary: Portugal used to have the worst heroin problem in Europe. Then they decriminalized and treated it as a public health problem. Now, 15 years after decriminalization, their rate of drug overdose death is 3 per million population.

https://mic.com/articles/120403/14-...y-portugal-s-experiment-has-worked#.PYfU9u2Rp

By contrast, the rate in the U.S. is going to be close to 300 per million population this year. That is almost 100 times as great as the Portugal rate.

Of course, the U.S. will never try decriminalization because in this country our leadership is stupid and pig-headed and addicted to all the money that the drug war brings in. The DEA and National Institute on Drug Abuse are just the perfect examples of how sometimes government agencies don't actually want to solve the problem they were created to solve -- because being ineffective brings in a pretty good paycheck!
Click to expand...

Opiods are legal. How can you compare that to Heroin?
Heroin is a problem (again) because of legal pain meds.

LdN
 
tboyer said:
Clearly this conversation keeps falling into confusion so it's not a great use of time for either of us. I'm out after this.

I don't know where you got this idea of "Kensington model." I only brought up Kensington as an example of an urban neighborhood that has been harmed -- not by the people who live there, but by all the drug tourists who go there to shoot up and die. Kensington is a model of what NOT to do. Fortunately because of all the negative publicity the greater Phila community is starting to at least take the problem seriously.
Click to expand...


Plenty of druggies live in Kensington. You might want to open your eyes and take a drive down Frankford ave under the EL. Lock your doors. The suburbanites are not driving to Kensington and dumping their trash. THe hookers and pimps are not commuting in from the burbs.
 
KnightSlayer said:
Many people who were heroin addicts when they are young grow out of the addiction if they make it through alive. The problem today is powerful synthetics are killing them before they get that chance.

Yes, especially if you look at drug addiction as a development disorder.

A new study from Yale suggests that drug addiction should be thought of as a developmental disorder, because the changing circuitry of teenagers' brains appears to leave them especially vulnerable to the effects of drugs and alcohol.

Dr. R. Andrew Chambers of the Yale School of Medicine, lead author of the article, said addictive drugs worked by stimulating parts of the brain that are changing rapidly in adolescence.

In particular, Dr. Chambers said, the drugs tap into a neural imbalance that may underlie teenagers' affinity for impulsive and risky behavior. The circuitry that releases chemicals that associate novel experiences with the motivation to repeat them develops far more quickly in adolescence than the mechanisms that inhibit urges and impulses.

As a result, he said, teenagers are not only more likely to experiment with drugs than other groups, but the experience also has more profound effects on the brain -- and sometimes permanent ones.

The article, published in the June issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry, was based on a review of 140 earlier studies. Dr. Chambers wrote that although it had long been known that most addicts began using drugs in adolescence, most research into the mechanisms of addictions or treatment focused on adults.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/24/health/drug-addiction-as-a-developmental-disorder.html
Click to expand...


This is so right on the money from my observations. Every person who has battled this disease that I have come in contact with is a "thrill seeker", whether it be roller coasters, strange and exotic foods, you name it. I used to say that they are adrenaline seekers in most aspects of their lives. This study seems to confirm on some level.
 
tboyer said:
This is an old article but it was new to me at least. Executive summary: Portugal used to have the worst heroin problem in Europe. Then they decriminalized and treated it as a public health problem. Now, 15 years after decriminalization, their rate of drug overdose death is 3 per million population.

https://mic.com/articles/120403/14-...y-portugal-s-experiment-has-worked#.PYfU9u2Rp

By contrast, the rate in the U.S. is going to be close to 300 per million population this year. That is almost 100 times as great as the Portugal rate.

Of course, the U.S. will never try decriminalization because in this country our leadership is stupid and pig-headed and addicted to all the money that the drug war brings in. The DEA and National Institute on Drug Abuse are just the perfect examples of how sometimes government agencies don't actually want to solve the problem they were created to solve -- because being ineffective brings in a pretty good paycheck!
Click to expand...

Actually, I read today that Oregon is looking at decriminalizing small quantities of heroin and cocaine. Can remember what publication, as it came in on one of those apps that search out news stories that may appeal to you and send you notices.
 
I would agree that the US needs a new approach to our drug problem, but I don't know what it is. I have a clinic behind my office and see people come and go all day. I see county buses bring people for their methadone or suboxane that are not being aid for by the addict. I have a family member that battled heroin and finally came out on the other side after spending time in state prison. I myself have never tried any type of mood altering drug.

So I have seen a lot of different sides to this issue. I know I don't like "my money" being spent to transport addicts to the clinic behind my office. I also don't want the same people breaking my car window to take the $5 worth of change from the center console so they can piece together enough money to shoot some dope.

I know it sounds cold but with the overpopulation we have, should we strive to and fight to keep everyone alive? Maybe this is all part of natural selection.

It is a difficult issue.
 
mrtailgate said:
Nice first post. Addiction eventually touches everyone. Check back when a friend or whoever you might know falls into it. You'll be changing your tune.
Click to expand...
sorry, I have no sympathy for Drug Addicts. Especially the ones who are repeatedly brought back to life. No different than Drunk Drivers...

They made the choice....
 
Frisbee Days said:
sorry, I have no sympathy for Drug Addicts. Especially the ones who are repeatedly brought back to life. No different than Drunk Drivers...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I have low tolerance for stupid people too. I guess we are even at the end of the day.
 
palehorse said:
Actually, I read today that Oregon is looking at decriminalizing small quantities of heroin and cocaine. Can remember what publication, as it came in on one of those apps that search out news stories that may appeal to you and send you notices.
Click to expand...
Welp. Guess that answers that.

 
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Legalization of pot is a failure too. Crime did not drop.

Pot also triggers mania in people with bi polar.

Crime is up, homeless is up, and education is down.
 
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