OT Vice Admiral Head of Pacific Fleet relieved of duty

[The Spin Meister]

The U.S. Navy will relieve the commander of its 7th Fleet from duty after the fleet suffered its second deadly mishap in less than three months, a U.S. defense official confirmed to Fox News.

An official statement from the Navy regarding the relief of Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin was expected at 10 p.m ET.

 

[Uh Clem]

Heard today that the Navy has had four incidents in the past year. What are the chances that some hacking has occurred?

 

[KSLion]

The U.S. Navy will relieve the commander of its 7th Fleet from duty after the fleet suffered its second deadly mishap in less than three months, a U.S. defense official confirmed to Fox News.

An official statement from the Navy regarding the relief of Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin was expected at 10 p.m ET.

Read that Aucoin came up as an F-14 backseater, his scheduled change of command was next month and that the designated successor is a submariner by trade. In light of recent events, wonder if that may change to someone with a little different background.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Heard today that the Navy has had four incidents in the past year. What are the chances that some hacking has occurred?

I think there has to be something nefarious going on. The US Navy likely has gone decades without an accidental ship to ship collision and now a series of these have happened in a short period of time. These weren't stealth ships, that the commercial ship wouldn't be able to see on radar, so this would mean that neither the US Navy ship, nor the commercial ship, were seeing each other properly. Either that, or it was blatant and systemic incompetence. I just can't believe that the sailors that were manning the navigation and/or radar on these ships would make an error that could potentially put the lives of their fellow sailors at risk.

 

[BobPSU92]

Is it because his name is offensive?

 

[LionDeNittany]

I think there has to be something nefarious going on. The US Navy likely has gone decades without an accidental ship to ship collision and now a series of these have happened in a short period of time. These weren't stealth ships, that the commercial ship wouldn't be able to see on radar, so this would mean that neither the US Navy ship, nor the commercial ship, were seeing each other properly. Either that, or it was blatant and systemic incompetence. I just can't believe that the sailors that were manning the navigation and/or radar on these ships would make an error that could potentially put the lives of their fellow sailors at risk.

There is just a huge amount of sea. Even near a port. these ships are a mile apart in most cases.

That said, it's up to the destroyer to move I believe.

LdN

 

[kgilbert78]

I think there has to be something nefarious going on. The US Navy likely has gone decades without an accidental ship to ship collision and now a series of these have happened in a short period of time. These weren't stealth ships, that the commercial ship wouldn't be able to see on radar, so this would mean that neither the US Navy ship, nor the commercial ship, were seeing each other properly. Either that, or it was blatant and systemic incompetence. I just can't believe that the sailors that were manning the navigation and/or radar on these ships would make an error that could potentially put the lives of their fellow sailors at risk.

It's called "a mistake". Humans make them. The oddity is the number at this time and in the same area.

And I'm betting that there's been quite a few near misses we've never heard about.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Until I am convinced otherwise, I am certain that the root cause of this foolishness is incompetence on the part of the OOD.

Why are they incompetent? These junior officers are graduates of the Naval Academy or some of the best schools in America. They aren't dummies.

But they are VERY poorly trained. They are rushed through their qualification - there are Ensigns running around with Surface Warfare qualifications and Fleet OOD letters.

These people lack sea time. Of course they do not understand the Rules of the Road. There is immense pressure on Commanding Officers to get their people qualified. Retention in the SWO community is poor - Captains are reluctant to hammer non-performers so they get quals they don't deserve.

Ships are now minimum-manned. There are fewer salty Fleet Lieutenants out there to stand tight watches and train up the junior officers. People are moving to positions of greater responsibility too fast - in my day a SWO did two sea tours and a shore tour before Department Head school. Now it's one longer sea tour and shore duty and next thing you know you're a DH, but you don't have the experience to know what you are doing.

I could go on and on with this. Obviously I get pretty emotional, we've killed almost 20 sailors, caused a billion dollars in damage, and pulled two major national assets off the line in a very dangerous part of the world.

It is ridiculous and brutal.

 

[hilo]

Until I am convinced otherwise, I am certain that the root cause of this foolishness is incompetence on the part of the OOD.

Why are they incompetent? These junior officers are graduates of the Naval Academy or some of the best schools in America. They aren't dummies.

But they are VERY poorly trained. They are rushed through their qualification - there are Ensigns running around with Surface Warfare qualifications and Fleet OOD letters.

These people lack sea time. Of course they do not understand the Rules of the Road. There is immense pressure on Commanding Officers to get their people qualified. Retention in the SWO community is poor - Captains are reluctant to hammer non-performers so they get quals they don't deserve.

Ships are now minimum-manned. There are fewer salty Fleet Lieutenants out there to stand tight watches and train up the junior officers. People are moving to positions of greater responsibility too fast - in my day a SWO did two sea tours and a shore tour before Department Head school. Now it's one longer sea tour and shore duty and next thing you know you're a DH, but you don't have the experience to know what you are doing.

I could go on and on with this. Obviously I get pretty emotional, we've killed almost 20 sailors, caused a billion dollars in damage, and pulled two major national assets off the line in a very dangerous part of the world.

It is ridiculous and brutal.

Well said. It's the same in the submarine community.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

Until I am convinced otherwise, I am certain that the root cause of this foolishness is incompetence on the part of the OOD.

Why are they incompetent? These junior officers are graduates of the Naval Academy or some of the best schools in America. They aren't dummies.

But they are VERY poorly trained. They are rushed through their qualification - there are Ensigns running around with Surface Warfare qualifications and Fleet OOD letters.

These people lack sea time. Of course they do not understand the Rules of the Road. There is immense pressure on Commanding Officers to get their people qualified. Retention in the SWO community is poor - Captains are reluctant to hammer non-performers so they get quals they don't deserve.

Ships are now minimum-manned. There are fewer salty Fleet Lieutenants out there to stand tight watches and train up the junior officers. People are moving to positions of greater responsibility too fast - in my day a SWO did two sea tours and a shore tour before Department Head school. Now it's one longer sea tour and shore duty and next thing you know you're a DH, but you don't have the experience to know what you are doing.

I could go on and on with this. Obviously I get pretty emotional, we've killed almost 20 sailors, caused a billion dollars in damage, and pulled two major national assets off the line in a very dangerous part of the world.

It is ridiculous and brutal.

pretty much nailed it.

 

[Metal Mike]

Until I am convinced otherwise, I am certain that the root cause of this foolishness is incompetence on the part of the OOD.

Why are they incompetent? These junior officers are graduates of the Naval Academy or some of the best schools in America. They aren't dummies.

But they are VERY poorly trained. They are rushed through their qualification - there are Ensigns running around with Surface Warfare qualifications and Fleet OOD letters.

These people lack sea time. Of course they do not understand the Rules of the Road. There is immense pressure on Commanding Officers to get their people qualified. Retention in the SWO community is poor - Captains are reluctant to hammer non-performers so they get quals they don't deserve.

Ships are now minimum-manned. There are fewer salty Fleet Lieutenants out there to stand tight watches and train up the junior officers. People are moving to positions of greater responsibility too fast - in my day a SWO did two sea tours and a shore tour before Department Head school. Now it's one longer sea tour and shore duty and next thing you know you're a DH, but you don't have the experience to know what you are doing.

I could go on and on with this. Obviously I get pretty emotional, we've killed almost 20 sailors, caused a billion dollars in damage, and pulled two major national assets off the line in a very dangerous part of the world.

It is ridiculous and brutal.

Fox Chapel Lion II I believe you have hit on the problem. I know nothing about the Navy, but I served in the Army and know how things go. These incidents smack of lack of experience and or incompetence. I understand the Officer of the Deck OOD controls the ship and the pressure of junior officers to get OOD qualified is intense.

 

[Columbus_Lion]

Is it possible these Navy ships cannot be seen on radar (stealth), which is part of the problem?

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

@uscgPSU You know what I would like to see? Any prospective OOD needs to pass the USCG 3M unlimited exam and the Rules of the Road as a condition of getting qualified.

 

[Ct. Lion]

"Naval Destroyer McCain collides with merchant ship". Most of the headlines are of this nature using "McCain collides with" somewhere in the headline.

Look at the pictures of the McCain damage. The oil tanker rammed the McCain in the rear aft section of the Destroyer. The McCain "collided" with, or hit, no one. It was rammed and hit by the oil tanker, just like a torpedo hits a ship on the side of the ship.

That said, the McCain should be totally aware of its surroundings and realized by sight and electronics that the oil tanker was on a collision course and then taken evasive action of sorts so there is plenty of blame to go around but right now to me (and I have military and combat experience) this incident needs to be investigated as a possible terrorist attack.

Of course, the military would want to keep this quiet for now since a terrorist attack begs a ton of other questions and the need for retaliation, none of which can be answered with any degree of accuracy.

So how could it happen? Piracy for one example. Oil tankers are sometimes a target for piracy with the cargo (diesel, gasoline, raw oil, etc.) off-loaded to other vessels.

https://news.vice.com/article/pirates-are-running-wild-and-hijacking-oil-tankers-in-southeast-asia

This is a great way for a terrorist organization to create cash flow and now have a vessel to commit a terrorist attack on a U.S. warship coming to port in Singapore. For those who want to scoff at this thought think back to 9/11 and the World Trade towers. What a fantasy that was until it happened.

 

[Realoldnavy]

Until I am convinced otherwise, I am certain that the root cause of this foolishness is incompetence on the part of the OOD.

Why are they incompetent? These junior officers are graduates of the Naval Academy or some of the best schools in America. They aren't dummies.

But they are VERY poorly trained. They are rushed through their qualification - there are Ensigns running around with Surface Warfare qualifications and Fleet OOD letters.

These people lack sea time. Of course they do not understand the Rules of the Road. There is immense pressure on Commanding Officers to get their people qualified. Retention in the SWO community is poor - Captains are reluctant to hammer non-performers so they get quals they don't deserve.

Ships are now minimum-manned. There are fewer salty Fleet Lieutenants out there to stand tight watches and train up the junior officers. People are moving to positions of greater responsibility too fast - in my day a SWO did two sea tours and a shore tour before Department Head school. Now it's one longer sea tour and shore duty and next thing you know you're a DH, but you don't have the experience to know what you are doing.

I could go on and on with this. Obviously I get pretty emotional, we've killed almost 20 sailors, caused a billion dollars in damage, and pulled two major national assets off the line in a very dangerous part of the world.

It is ridiculous and brutal.

Until I am convinced otherwise, I am certain that the root cause of this foolishness is incompetence on the part of the OOD.

Why are they incompetent? These junior officers are graduates of the Naval Academy or some of the best schools in America. They aren't dummies.

But they are VERY poorly trained. They are rushed through their qualification - there are Ensigns running around with Surface Warfare qualifications and Fleet OOD letters.

These people lack sea time. Of course they do not understand the Rules of the Road. There is immense pressure on Commanding Officers to get their people qualified. Retention in the SWO community is poor - Captains are reluctant to hammer non-performers so they get quals they don't deserve.

Ships are now minimum-manned. There are fewer salty Fleet Lieutenants out there to stand tight watches and train up the junior officers. People are moving to positions of greater responsibility too fast - in my day a SWO did two sea tours and a shore tour before Department Head school. Now it's one longer sea tour and shore duty and next thing you know you're a DH, but you don't have the experience to know what you are doing.

I could go on and on with this. Obviously I get pretty emotional, we've killed almost 20 sailors, caused a billion dollars in damage, and pulled two major national assets off the line in a very dangerous part of the world.

It is ridiculous and brutal.

I agree. I did 2 sea tours before Destroyer School ( now Department Head School). I didn't make Fleet OOD until somewhere around 2 + years at sea. I also think that todays modern computer systems process so much data to information, that it becomes confounding. Finally, we teach techniques to use technology rather than seamanship. We are still all sailors and the ability to drive and manage a ship at sea is so much more that burying your head in a computer. We were all proud of developing a "seaman's eye" . I don't think that is a requirement any more.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

I vehemently disagree. This has nothing to do with terrorists, pirates, rogue oil tankers or invisible ships. The DDG has unlimited power available and extreme maneuverability. Gas turbine propulsion is instant-on - the ship can virtually LEAP from 16 knots transit speed to a flank bell.

The issue is not knowing what they are doing out there.

 

[massimoManca II]

Until I am convinced otherwise, I am certain that the root cause of this foolishness is incompetence on the part of the OOD.

Why are they incompetent? These junior officers are graduates of the Naval Academy or some of the best schools in America. They aren't dummies.

But they are VERY poorly trained. They are rushed through their qualification - there are Ensigns running around with Surface Warfare qualifications and Fleet OOD letters.

These people lack sea time. Of course they do not understand the Rules of the Road. There is immense pressure on Commanding Officers to get their people qualified. Retention in the SWO community is poor - Captains are reluctant to hammer non-performers so they get quals they don't deserve.

Ships are now minimum-manned. There are fewer salty Fleet Lieutenants out there to stand tight watches and train up the junior officers. People are moving to positions of greater responsibility too fast - in my day a SWO did two sea tours and a shore tour before Department Head school. Now it's one longer sea tour and shore duty and next thing you know you're a DH, but you don't have the experience to know what you are doing.

I could go on and on with this. Obviously I get pretty emotional, we've killed almost 20 sailors, caused a billion dollars in damage, and pulled two major national assets off the line in a very dangerous part of the world.

It is ridiculous and brutal.

Sounds precisely like the large corporation I work for... Guys like me who've been here 20yrs+ now report to former campus-hires who served minimal time in various operational areas but never had enough time to master any if them... hell, most of these millenials received little more than "webinar" and "shadow" training... perfect for making decisions and policy that make zero sense and create customer-dissention...

 

[nitlion93]

My two cents: the level/quality of training provided has not decreased over time, but the quality of the recruit/graduate has. I visited the Great Lakes recruit training facility a few months ago as a civilian observer. Many of the training devices are the have remained constant over the years, but there are several new advances that are supposed to improve training.

During my time there, I had a chance to speak to the CO and many of the recruits. My observation: this is not your father's Navy. I was told that 25% of the recruits who enlist do not know how to swim when they arrive at basic training. It was hard for me to understand why they would you join the Navy. The physical requirements of the training had to have been reduced from what I saw and heard. Don't get me wrong, most of these kids (18-20 year olds) are very nice people. However, many I talked to said they enlisted because it will give them an opportunity for a better future (alternative to those who could not afford or get into college). That's fine for them and most will do fine and have a successful career. I was very proud to see these kids finish their training which culminated in a very emotional ceremony. I know that our country will be indebted to them. However, I walked away with the feeling that many of these recruits who graduated only did so because the requirements (both mental and physical) are lower today than in the past.

Could this be a contributing factor to current events? This is just how I felt after observing for a few days.

 

[uscgPSU]

@uscgPSU You know what I would like to see? Any prospective OOD needs to pass the USCG 3M unlimited exam and the Rules of the Road as a condition of getting qualified.

I was amazed I needed to know navigational rules of the road as a coxswain AND to promote to E-4, while my CO (O-2) barely knew them and other commissioned officers I knew on larger ships that served as OOD's had no idea of Navigational Rules of The Road and simply relied on the Rule of Gross Tonage and experienced BM's and QM's to make it through the day.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

I was amazed I needed to know navigational rules of the road as a coxswain AND to promote to E-4, while my CO (O-2) barely knew them and other commissioned officers I knew on larger ships that served as OOD's had no idea of Navigational Rules of The Road and simply relied on the Rule of Gross Tonage and experienced BM's and QM's to make it through the day.

That is terrible but I believe it. The Rules are complicated no doubt - but like any other skill, you break it down into parts and learn them one by one. We had flash cards for the lights and day shapes. Do that first say, then learn the sound signals. Then you move on to crossing/meeting.

When you have the theory down, you practice - hours and hours of observing vessels in all kinds of visibility. You learn how to determine the aspect and target angle of other ships. It sure helps if your OOD, XO or Senior Watch Officer is there to quiz you and give you criticism and correction.

Now it's even easier for a watch stander because there are all sorts of Rules of the Road simulators, quizzes and tutorials on line. It's just unacceptable for a seagoing Coast Guard, Navy, or Merchant Marine officer to be less than an expert.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Q for you Navy guys; Any chance that arrogance is part of the problem? Someone earlier hinted at that. Do OODs and COs have the attitude that because they are US Navy that gives them the right of way and that other ships should yield to them?

Seems very strange that destroyers, which are very maneuverable, are the ones getting hit. And in crowded areas, where I am assuming, that ships are at slower speed giving the destroyers more time to alter course.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Q for you Navy guys; Any chance that arrogance is part of the problem? Someone earlier hinted at that. Do OODs and COs have the attitude that because they are US Navy that gives them the right of way and that other ships should yield to them?

Seems very strange that destroyers, which are very maneuverable, are the ones getting hit. And in crowded areas, where I am assuming, that ships are at slower speed giving the destroyers more time to alter course.

Best way I can describe it, think of Saquon Barkley as a DD - fast, maneuverable and packs a punch. The oil tanker is a defensive lineman - big and strong but takes a while to get moving, doesn't change direction real well. So they're doing a drill where the lineman tries to run down SB. It will NEVER happen as long as Barkley is paying attention and takes the drill seriously.

There is a degree of arrogance out there for sure. No one wants or will deliberately risk a collision. This is why I put it down to a fundamental lack of seamanship - there are lots of ships out there. You have multiple contacts that you have to evaluate quickly and accurately and formulate a plan. That takes practice over many watches. Otherwise you can get overwhelmed, lose situational awareness, and real bad things happen.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

Q for you Navy guys; Any chance that arrogance is part of the problem? Someone earlier hinted at that. Do OODs and COs have the attitude that because they are US Navy that gives them the right of way and that other ships should yield to them?

Seems very strange that destroyers, which are very maneuverable, are the ones getting hit. And in crowded areas, where I am assuming, that ships are at slower speed giving the destroyers more time to alter course.

during one of my sub tours, we were on the surface in the Strait of Juan de Fuca and the OOD said he spotted a drifting sailboat in our path. the CO asked him what the rules of the road dictated. The OOD cited chapter and verse before the CO cut him off and said, "Bullsh*t! we are a $2 billion dollar war vessel designed to destroy continents. that f**ker better move for us"

LOL

 

[Bobpsu]

I was amazed I needed to know navigational rules of the road as a coxswain AND to promote to E-4, while my CO (O-2) barely knew them and other commissioned officers I knew on larger ships that served as OOD's had no idea of Navigational Rules of The Road and simply relied on the Rule of Gross Tonage and experienced BM's and QM's to make it through the day.

You should know the rules of the road to operate a boat on an inland lake. For your and your passengers safety!

 

[Cyclingmik]

Served on the USS IOWA .... 56,000 ton battleship - 897 ft long. Always thought how amazing it is to load up a ship with 18-22 year olds and not have these type of issues. Lots of dangers on board these vessels. We had great leadership on my ship and generally large warships get the best and the brightest CO, XO and Dept heads. My first CO made Admiral.... sharp man. I know this much the officer's in charge promotions and careers are pretty much over.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Served on the USS IOWA .... 56,000 ton battleship - 897 ft long. Always thought how amazing it is to load up a ship with 18-22 year olds and not have these type of issues. Lots of dangers on board these vessels. We had great leadership on my ship and generally large warships get the best and the brightest CO, XO and Dept heads. My first CO made Admiral.... sharp man. I know this much the officer's in charge promotions and careers are pretty much over.

So true. I served on a CG so we had the big advantage that our CO, XO and Department Heads were all second tour, so they had built up lots of experience. IIRC we had four or five second tour LTs that had sailed FFGs, Amphibs and carriers. So us new officers had the chance to learn from successful, experienced officers and of course some outstanding petty officers and Chiefs. As we got more seasoned and got a deployment under our belts, we got qualified and started taking over OOD, the older guys moved on to SWC/FWC or TAO to get them ready for DH school.

You had every opportunity to learn from the best. If you messed it up it was your own fault. Myself I was kinda weak in weapons and tactics, bad with comms, but considering my limited experience I was a good deck officer for a first tour LT. If I had stayed in, I'd have improved my weaknesses on my next ship.

 

[Nitt1300]

From what I’ve been reading (and I’ve been following this pretty much daily since the Fitzgerald incident) the Navy has a serious training issue. Heavy demand on the ships has left less time than there should be for training. I suspect that there is also an over reliance on tech and an under appreciation of basic seamanship. We had less tech, but our entire bridge crew knew what we were doing.

You can bet your ass that a Vice Admiral getting sacked will send a loud wake up call- and it sounds like that is just what is needed.

 

[Cyclingmik]

So true. I served on a CG so we had the big advantage that our CO, XO and Department Heads were all second tour, so they had built up lots of experience. IIRC we had four or five second tour LTs that had sailed FFGs, Amphibs and carriers. So us new officers had the chance to learn from successful, experienced officers and of course some outstanding petty officers and Chiefs. As we got more seasoned and got a deployment under our belts, we got qualified and started taking over OOD, the older guys moved on to SWC/FWC or TAO to get them ready for DH school.

You had every opportunity to learn from the best. If you messed it up it was your own fault. Myself I was kinda weak in weapons and tactics, bad with comms, but considering my limited experience I was a good deck officer for a first tour LT. If I had stayed in, I'd have improved my weaknesses on my next ship.

Thanks for your reply...........interesting read.