Football Penn State's James Franklin Ranked Among Top 25 Coaches of 21st Century

[Obliviax]

At least with Joe you always believed there was a shot at winning. With JF, anyone watching PennState cannot say they are ever confident he can beat an upper echelon team. It is expected they will lose with JF as the coach therefore no heartbreak, just excuses.

i don't disagree but what team is different? tOSU lost two games last year. GA? AL? Florida State? Michigan?

When you play good teams with equal talent, you are 50/50. With superior coaching, you can push that up a bit.

IMHO, PSU hasn't had the depth for a long, long time. We are always weak at one or more positions. Most glaringly is the most important position on the field: QB. We haven't had a good, not even great, QB in a long time. Clark was probably the best. When you look at the NFL draft, with the exception of Hack, we haven't had a QB drafted in the first four rounds.

• Clifford, round 5, 149th player taken
• Trace, round 6, 197
• Hack, 2, 20
• Wally Richardson, 7, 234
• Collins, 1, 5

Collins was in 1995, 30 years ago. That has been our problem.

 

[ryoder1]

That's all fine
We all want to win more big games and many, including myself, believe he should eventually be fired if he's Mark Richt 2.0
That's not the discussion here.
And nostalgia makes you all remember Joe for being better than he was as a coach. He lost way too many games that he shouldn't have. Way too many.

He is Mark Richt 2.0 until he proves otherwise. Yeah Joe lost a few for sure but I wouldn't say way too many. Nevertheless he did come up huge a couple times in the biggest games going 2-4 in Natty title games. Also beating Oregon in '94, getting the best of ND in that 10 year war series. etc.. Franklin is way off from that.

 

[Obliviax]

He is Mark Richt 2.0 until he proves otherwise. Yeah Joe lost a few for sure but I wouldn't say way too many. Nevertheless he did come up huge a couple times in the biggest games going 2-4 in Natty title games. Also beating Oregon in '94, getting the best of ND in that 10 year war series. etc.. Franklin is way off from that.

true...but it is a totally different paradigm today. Joe coached, for the most part, before high-speed internet. And largely before the emergence of ESPN in college football. Previous to that, coverage was regional except for ABC, CBS and NBC, which had a handful of premier games every weekend. Recruiting was done by car and phone, making it regional. He really didn't compete with Oregon, USC and even Miami for recruits. 95% of the kids were from PA, Ohio, NJ, MD and NY. You beat the teams you played against that were also from your region and hoped to win a bowl game, then prayed the sports media would vote you a championship.

My point is that the competition of players and games was totally different. As was PR. And lets not forget the program was in a shambles for at least five years (I'd argue at least ten, directly) due to the JS scandal.

 

[LandoComando]

At least with Joe you always believed there was a shot at winning. With JF, anyone watching PennState cannot say they are ever confident he can beat an upper echelon team. It is expected they will lose with JF as the coach therefore no heartbreak, just excuses.

Not arguing that. That doesn't alter Paterno lost way too many games he shouldn't have.

 

[LandoComando]

He is Mark Richt 2.0 until he proves otherwise. Yeah Joe lost a few for sure but I wouldn't say way too many. Nevertheless he did come up huge a couple times in the biggest games going 2-4 in Natty title games. Also beating Oregon in '94, getting the best of ND in that 10 year war series. etc.. Franklin is way off from that.

And, like UGa, then you eventually move on. Reaching the final four bought him some years....for better or worse.
Let's not pretend Oregon was good in 94.

 

[ryoder1]

true...but it is a totally different paradigm today. Joe coached, for the most part, before high-speed internet. And largely before the emergence of ESPN in college football. Previous to that, coverage was regional except for ABC, CBS and NBC, which had a handful of premier games every weekend. Recruiting was done by car and phone, making it regional. He really didn't compete with Oregon, USC and even Miami for recruits. 95% of the kids were from PA, Ohio, NJ, MD and NY. You beat the teams you played against that were also from your region and hoped to win a bowl game, then prayed the sports media would vote you a championship.

My point is that the competition of players and games was totally different. As was PR. And lets not forget the program was in a shambles for at least five years (I'd argue at least ten, directly) due to the JS scandal.

At this point I don't care to debate the merits of Joe. We need to be concerned about whether Franklin can ever win a big game with the team making clutch plays in crunch time. We get new data this season!

 

[94LionsFan]

He is Mark Richt 2.0 until he proves otherwise. Yeah Joe lost a few for sure but I wouldn't say way too many. Nevertheless he did come up huge a couple times in the biggest games going 2-4 in Natty title games. Also beating Oregon in '94, getting the best of ND in that 10 year war series. etc.. Franklin is way off from that.

Joe definitely has the edge over James in big games (so far), but I wouldn’t include Oregon ‘94 in that. They finished 11th in the final AP poll. By comparison, Boise finished 8th last year.

 

[sdwcpa]

i don't disagree but what team is different? tOSU lost two games last year. GA? AL? Florida State? Michigan?

When you play good teams with equal talent, you are 50/50. With superior coaching, you can push that up a bit.

IMHO, PSU hasn't had the depth for a long, long time. We are always weak at one or more positions. Most glaringly is the most important position on the field: QB. We haven't had a good, not even great, QB in a long time. Clark was probably the best. When you look at the NFL draft, with the exception of Hack, we haven't had a QB drafted in the first four rounds.

• Clifford, round 5, 149th player taken
• Trace, round 6, 197
• Hack, 2, 20
• Wally Richardson, 7, 234
• Collins, 1, 5

Collins was in 1995, 30 years ago. That has been our problem.

True that OSU lost 2 games last year including the ultimate WTF loss to Michigan as a 23 point home favorite. But they also beat 6 of the top 7 ranked teams not including themselves. Most PSU fans would give their eye teeth for 50/50 against equal or better talent. Franklin is something like 1-18 vs top 5 teams overall and I believe 3-17 at PSU against top 10 teams. One of those wins was against Utah who was playing without their QB.

 

[Obliviax]

True that OSU lost 2 games last year including the ultimate WTF loss to Michigan as a 23 point home favorite. But they also beat 6 of the top 7 ranked teams not including themselves. Most PSU fans would give their eye teeth for 50/50 against equal or better talent. Franklin is something like 1-18 vs top 5 teams overall and I believe 3-17 at PSU against top 10 teams. One of those wins was against Utah who was playing without their QB.

Agree. And can you name the teams that have had as much or more success than tOSU? I can think of only two: GA and AL. Can you name teams that have moved from the mid-tier to that lofty perch? GA did. So did AL but that was, now, a decade ago. It is hard to move your program up. Few succeed.

It is a lofty goal and one that we should aspire to. But lets be realistic, CJF wasn't in an environment that he could effectively accomplish that goal. Today, we have a new president and an AD who supports the program. We are investing hundreds of millions. Paying the players is now a level playing field with NIL. And we are now several years removed from the impact of Sandusky.

lastly, if you want to get rid of CJF, I wonder who you think is better.

 

[LandoComando]

Agree. And can you name the teams that have had as much or more success than tOSU? I can think of only two: GA and AL. Can you name teams that have moved from the mid-tier to that lofty perch? GA did. So did AL but that was, now, a decade ago. It is hard to move your program up. Few succeed.

It is a lofty goal and one that we should aspire to. But lets be realistic, CJF wasn't in an environment that he could effectively accomplish that goal. Today, we have a new president and an AD who supports the program. We are investing hundreds of millions. Paying the players is now a level playing field with NIL. And we are now several years removed from the impact of Sandusky.

lastly, if you want to get rid of CJF, I wonder who you think is better.

Your last question has to stop being asked...the issue isn't who but do you replace him. Smart wasn't a lock but it was a calculated risk. You don't keep a coach because of fear

 

[sdwcpa]

Agree. And can you name the teams that have had as much or more success than tOSU? I can think of only two: GA and AL. Can you name teams that have moved from the mid-tier to that lofty perch? GA did. So did AL but that was, now, a decade ago. It is hard to move your program up. Few succeed.

It is a lofty goal and one that we should aspire to. But lets be realistic, CJF wasn't in an environment that he could effectively accomplish that goal. Today, we have a new president and an AD who supports the program. We are investing hundreds of millions. Paying the players is now a level playing field with NIL. And we are now several years removed from the impact of Sandusky.

lastly, if you want to get rid of CJF, I wonder who you think is better.

It wasn't the surrounding environment the blew double digit fourth quarter leads to OSU in back to back years or couldn't score from inside the OSU 5 on 4 tries in the 4Q of last year's game. If JF had gone 50/50 against the teams with better or equal talent or even 40/60 I have to believe that the narrative would be different.

For less than they are paying him and what they are locked into financially they could have probably gotten a Matt Campbell type of coach. I am not saying for sure that he was the answer but I would like to see what he could do with PSU talent.

 

[Obliviax]

It wasn't the surrounding environment the blew double digit fourth quarter leads to OSU in back to back years or couldn't score from inside the OSU 5 on 4 tries in the 4Q of last year's game. If JF had gone 50/50 against the teams with better or equal talent or even 40/60 I have to believe that the narrative would be different.

For less than they are paying him and what they are locked into financially they could have probably gotten a Matt Campbell type of coach. I am not saying for sure that he was the answer but I would like to see what he could do with PSU talent.

My opinion is that our team was very one-dimensional with a lead. Trace threw several bad picks at back times (Pitt, USC in the Rose). It was Barkly, and that was it. Worse, our OL wasn't very strong. So when everyone knew Barkley was getting the ball and the OL couldn't hold great defenders at bay, our O stalled while our D tired. Again, it comes down to the fact that we've had subpar quarterbacking for as long as I have been an adult. Yep, CJF could have done SOMETHING differently but given the skill sets of the team's players, probably would not have worked.

 

[manilion]

Not arguing that. That doesn't alter Paterno lost way too many games he shouldn't have.

True

 

[manilion]

Joe definitely has the edge over James in big games (so far), but I wouldn’t include Oregon ‘94 in that. They finished 11th in the final AP poll. By comparison, Boise finished 8th last year.

Boise was not a true top ten team. lol. Best win Nevada. Crazy, all you have to do is play a weak schedule and you will climb in the ranks by winning.

 

[manilion]

T

i don't disagree but what team is different? tOSU lost two games last year. GA? AL? Florida State? Michigan?

When you play good teams with equal talent, you are 50/50. With superior coaching, you can push that up a bit.

IMHO, PSU hasn't had the depth for a long, long time. We are always weak at one or more positions. Most glaringly is the most important position on the field: QB. We haven't had a good, not even great, QB in a long time. Clark was probably the best. When you look at the NFL draft, with the exception of Hack, we haven't had a QB drafted in the first four rounds.

• Clifford, round 5, 149th player taken
• Trace, round 6, 197
• Hack, 2, 20
• Wally Richardson, 7, 234
• Collins, 1, 5

Collins was in 1995, 30 years ago. That has been our problem.

There are a lot of teams out there winning games with QB that are not going to the next level. The JF passing game scheme has not been good for years. At some point we have to stop blaming the QB and receivers for all the bad passing plays. Can we just develop a short quick passing game?

 

[Zouavelion5]

T

There are a lot of teams out there winning games with QB that are not going to the next level. The JF passing game scheme has not been good for years. At some point we have to stop blaming the QB and receivers for all the bad passing plays. Can we just develop a short quick passing game?

JF is the one constant in the offense since 2014....and the fact that he was a QB in college you know that he can't help but influence the entire offensive scheme.
It he blows this opportunity in 2025 next season could be rough with all the losses at integral positions

 

[ryoder1]

True

Palermo in his prime did not lose way too many games than he should have. The only way you could possibly come to that conclusion is expect to virtually run the table every season and any loss was counted toward your metric of way too many. There were some weaker seasons like '76, '79, '83, '84, '87 88 and "89 so I guess you are considering many of those losses in those seasons as ones he should not have lost.

 

[manilion]

Palermo in his prime did not lose way too many games than he should have. The only way you could possibly come to that conclusion is expect to virtually run the table every season and any loss was counted toward your metric of way too many. There were some weaker seasons like '76, '79, '83, '84, '87 88 and "89 so I guess you are considering many of those losses in those seasons as ones he should not have lost.

That’s not the point. As I agree with you. Joe lost many games he should not have. The point I made is with Joe you never thought a game was not winnable. Even JF fans predict him losing to good teams before the season starts. JF fans don’t believe he is capable of winning big games, the excuses begin before the season even starts.

 

[Wallace Breen]

My opinion is that our team was very one-dimensional with a lead. Trace threw several bad picks at back times (Pitt, USC in the Rose). It was Barkly, and that was it. Worse, our OL wasn't very strong. So when everyone knew Barkley was getting the ball and the OL couldn't hold great defenders at bay, our O stalled while our D tired. Again, it comes down to the fact that we've had subpar quarterbacking for as long as I have been an adult. Yep, CJF could have done SOMETHING differently but given the skill sets of the team's players, probably would not have worked.

People have been dancing around this for years. Franklin's biggest problem is he constantly hires coaches incapable of adjusting the offense (except Joe Moorhead) or defense to the talent on hand. I am not going to talk about the historical disaster that was the 14 and 15 offenses, which were the worst coached units I have ever seen.

We were consistent on offense from 16 to 9, however, the 2019 offense was time locked into what it was in 2017 because Ricky Rahne lacked the coaching accumen to adjust Joe Mo's infinitely variable offense to a superior QB that could reliably throw the football placing a ceiling on Franklin's best team. Franklin promptly threw the baby out with bath water hiring coordinators that installed radically different offenses with radically different blocking systems and radically different philosophies with every hire killing continuity and putting the line into a constant state of rebuilding.

Defensively, we have been better, however, we are still system based. Bob Shoop was smart enough not to change much of what Ted Roof installed in 2012. However, after he left and Brent Pry took over, things remained static even as recruiting fell off at D-Tackle and linebacker resulting in a roster better suited to an odd front and couldn't adjust seriously capping what Parsons could do at the college level placing an additional ceiling on 2019. Then we went with Diaz's hyper aggressive, blitz early and often defense.

Where are we in 2025, another radical change on defense with a known learning curve where the entire front seven will have to played disciplined football for the first time in their career against a manageable schedule but one more difficult than the cake walk we had in 2024. We'll see how it goes.

 

[manilion]

The one constant is JF. But everyone else is the problem. LOL.

 

[Wallace Breen]

The one constant is JF. But everyone else is the problem. LOL.

Ultimately, we'll end up being no better than the third or fourth best team in the Big Ten which appears to be our ceiling under Franklin.

 

[MacNit2.0]

The goal is always "win it all." However, I have to wonder, have you been disgruntled since 1987? Because this program hasn't won it all since the '86 season and outside of 1994 (we were robbed, should have been a split like 3 other occasions during the 90s), 2005, and last year, we haven't been in the conversation for winning the national title.

Heck, prior to 1977/1978 we were viewed as the equivalent of Boise. The undefeated seasons were great, but they were built largely on the backs of a weak Eastern schedule. '77-'86 is the golden era of Penn State football and many stretch it back further (arguable) and extend it longer (falsely).

We were viewed like Boise prior to 1977-78?

Not true at all. And over 1950-2000 we statistically had the toughest schedule (not a “weak” Eastern schedule).

Heck, our top rival and probably top NFL-producing team during 1970s was Pitt. And we had a winning record over them - during that era…their pinnacle.

The program had the best team in 1994, some say best team ever. They were awarded a NYT MNC. Minus the Big10 voters, they were easily consensus #1 (thanks conference brothers!).

And PSU had plenty of other seasons where we were ‘in the mix.’ - including huge victories home and AWAY after 1987. And this concedes the fact that the program was in decline and also includes some very bad years.

So yes, we can do better (or worse) if we dare to try. How long do you get to consistently get a decent win more than once a decade? And that win was at home. We have done absolutely nothing against road opponents in Franklin’s entire tenure. Absolutely nothing. With no end in sight.

So there is ready nowhere to go but up. With that record does someone - anyone- else deserve a chance?

By my measure (and many other - including the Lettermen) the answer is yes.

Some Fanboys here? They seem content to accept mediocrity.

To each their own.

 

[MacNit2.0]

You've still not followed a second of the conversation--you're just venting/rambling as this proves

You, my son, are clueless and a mere amateur in the world of PSU football.

Books and a YouTube can be your friend.

I am well read on the subject and attended the big games - home and away.

I know the facts and have witnessed them with my own eyes.

 

[MacNit2.0]

i don't disagree but what team is different? tOSU lost two games last year. GA? AL? Florida State? Michigan?

When you play good teams with equal talent, you are 50/50. With superior coaching, you can push that up a bit.

IMHO, PSU hasn't had the depth for a long, long time. We are always weak at one or more positions. Most glaringly is the most important position on the field: QB. We haven't had a good, not even great, QB in a long time. Clark was probably the best. When you look at the NFL draft, with the exception of Hack, we haven't had a QB drafted in the first four rounds.

• Clifford, round 5, 149th player taken
• Trace, round 6, 197
• Hack, 2, 20
• Wally Richardson, 7, 234
• Collins, 1, 5

Collins was in 1995, 30 years ago. That has been our problem.

Well, when are we going to get around to solving this problem? Who is in charge? Accountable? And just how long does he get to fix this? 20 years? 30?

 

[MacNit2.0]

He is Mark Richt 2.0 until he proves otherwise. Yeah Joe lost a few for sure but I wouldn't say way too many. Nevertheless he did come up huge a couple times in the biggest games going 2-4 in Natty title games. Also beating Oregon in '94, getting the best of ND in that 10 year war series. etc.. Franklin is way off from that.

2-4 in title games?

 

[MacNit2.0]

true...but it is a totally different paradigm today. Joe coached, for the most part, before high-speed internet. And largely before the emergence of ESPN in college football. Previous to that, coverage was regional except for ABC, CBS and NBC, which had a handful of premier games every weekend. Recruiting was done by car and phone, making it regional. He really didn't compete with Oregon, USC and even Miami for recruits. 95% of the kids were from PA, Ohio, NJ, MD and NY. You beat the teams you played against that were also from your region and hoped to win a bowl game, then prayed the sports media would vote you a championship.

My point is that the competition of players and games was totally different. As was PR. And lets not forget the program was in a shambles for at least five years (I'd argue at least ten, directly) due to the JS scandal.

And this means what, exactly?

The point is if Franklin’s body of work is good enough (for Penn State).

Many say no - and have the data to back it up.

Others are content.

Again, to each their own..

 

[MacNit2.0]

Agree. And can you name the teams that have had as much or more success than tOSU? I can think of only two: GA and AL. Can you name teams that have moved from the mid-tier to that lofty perch? GA did. So did AL but that was, now, a decade ago. It is hard to move your program up. Few succeed.

It is a lofty goal and one that we should aspire to. But lets be realistic, CJF wasn't in an environment that he could effectively accomplish that goal. Today, we have a new president and an AD who supports the program. We are investing hundreds of millions. Paying the players is now a level playing field with NIL. And we are now several years removed from the impact of Sandusky.

lastly, if you want to get rid of CJF, I wonder who you think is better.

Current roster assembled in “bad environment” is going to be trending significantly downward unless Franklin starts recruiting better.

Need WRs desperately. And DTs. RB is likely to be a major drop off.

Need more talent! And much better ingame coaching.

Heck, hire someone that knows how to run out clock with 98.6 chance to win and it’s a step forward!

 

[ryoder1]

That’s not the point. As I agree with you. Joe lost many games he should not have. The point I made is with Joe you never thought a game was not winnable. Even JF fans predict him losing to good teams before the season starts. JF fans don’t believe he is capable of winning big games, the excuses begin before the season even starts.

Yes, that's a given. For example it is complete absurdity to think a JF team would have beaten Miami for the title or even Georgia. His team would have blown Illinois and Michigan in '94. JF would have lost some of those Pitt games like '77, '78, certainly '75 where Joe managed a win. He would have lost to Nebraska in '81 and '82, lost to OSU in '78, lost to ND in '90 on and on and on.

I still don't agree Joe lost many games he should not have when looking at the prime of his career. He wasn't perfect, far from it, and is not the greatest coach ever. He certainly blew games ('79 Sugar Bowl being the absolute worst) but don't make him out to be Bo Schembechler losing 10 straight Rose Bowls or some dimwit who routinely blew winnable games.

 

[ryoder1]

2-4 in title games?

I meant 2 out of 4 but as we all know he should have been in about 3 more title games if CFB was not such a sham.

 

[ryoder1]

We were viewed like Boise prior to 1977-78?

Not true at all. And over 1950-2000 we statistically had the toughest schedule (not a “weak” Eastern schedule).

Heck, our top rival and probably top NFL-producing team during 1970s was Pitt. And we had a winning record over them - during that era…their pinnacle.

The program had the best team in 1994, some say best team ever. They were awarded a NYT MNC. Minus the Big10 voters, they were easily consensus #1 (thanks conference brothers!).

And PSU had plenty of other seasons where we were ‘in the mix.’ - including huge victories home and AWAY after 1987. And this concedes the fact that the program was in decline and also includes some very bad years.

So yes, we can do better (or worse) if we dare to try. How long do you get to consistently get a decent win more than once a decade? And that win was at home. We have done absolutely nothing against road opponents in Franklin’s entire tenure. Absolutely nothing. With no end in sight.

So there is ready nowhere to go but up. With that record does someone - anyone- else deserve a chance?

By my measure (and many other - including the Lettermen) the answer is yes.

Some Fanboys here? They seem content to accept mediocrity.

To each their own.

Name a better big game coach than Joe between '66 and '94? Hard to do it. Lou Holtz? No. Tom Osborne? No. Barry Switzer? Well he did beat Joe in the '86 Orange Bowl but I don't think overall. Bear Bryant? I'll give you that. But he was gone after '82. By the way people probably say that '86 Orange Bowl was a game Joe lost but should have won. Give me a break. Our talent did not match up to theirs. Schaefer at QB, LOL!

 

[LandoComando]

You, my son, are clueless and a mere amateur in the world of PSU football.

Books and a YouTube can be your friend.

I am well read on the subject and attended the big games - home and away.

I know the facts and have witnessed them with my own eyes.

You must have forgotten everything you saw and read.

 

[Zouavelion5]

That’s not the point. As I agree with you. Joe lost many games he should not have. The point I made is with Joe you never thought a game was not winnable. Even JF fans predict him losing to good teams before the season starts. JF fans don’t believe he is capable of winning big games, the excuses begin before the season even starts.

I agree...so many people already have chalked up OSU this year as a loss.

 

[ryoder1]

I agree...so many people already have chalked up OSU this year as a loss.

Because a loss to them under Franklin has been as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.