Questions re the Andy Matter yrs

[RandyL]

Altho I was there for Matter’s career, for the life of me, I can’t recall some things about the
scoring.
I am sure we didn’t have tech falls back then, but I think we didnt even recognize “major
decisions” either. Correct?

I know when Andy couldnt pin someone he typically rode them like crazy...4 minutes of riding
time, or even more, was not unusual.
But how many riding time pts did they award back then? 1 or 2 ??

I recall it was much more difficult to get back pts then, compared to today.
I think there was both a 2-pt and 3-pt award back then?

E.g....I saw Matter and Shields go into OT (all 3 times I think), but I can’t recall how the OT
periods worked back then.
I think contestants might wrestle 2 OTs (and then if still tied, there was a “referee’s decision”
awarded to the more aggressive guy).
But how long, and what did the OTs consist of ?
Was an OT three 1-minute periods?

It is amazing how much you can forget over the years.
Btw...Google is NOT my friend.
I do not like Google, and Google does not like me.
But I sure do like the nice folks on this board that help us with failing memories.

 

[nitlion6]

Regular decision no matter score.
6 points for a fall. At one point a first period fall was 6 points, a second or third period fall was 5.
Riding time during Matter's college career was for 1 point. During his HS career 2 points could be earned.
Ties in a dual were 2 points apiece.
OT in tournaments was 1-1-1 and if still tied referee decision.

 

[86PSUPaul]

Back when my son wrestled HS they had a clinician come in, I think maybe Gene Mills, but not sure. He said when he wrestled there were no tech falls so he would beat people by 20 points, or more. He said it was always hard for people to claim the were "caught in a freak move" when they would lose by 20 points.

 

[jammenz]

OT in tournaments was 1-1-1 and if still tied referee decision.

Which is far superior to the current OT rules.

 

[RoarLions1]

The riding time rule changed in 1970, Andy's first year. As nitlion noted (except for the year), it was 2 points for 2 minutes or more, up to 1969.

Re. the nearfall points, it was 2 or 3 for only a four year period, 1955-1958, changed in 1959 to 3 points.

 

[oldcougar65]

The riding time rule changed in 1970, Andy's first year. As nitlion noted (except for the year), it was 2 points for 2 minutes or more, up to 1969.

Re. the nearfall points, it was 2 or 3 for only a four year period, 1955-1958, changed in 1959 to 3 points.

The two point nearfall was called a prediciment. At that time some genius changed the scoring for takedowns. Seems to me it was 1961, when only the first takedown was worth 2 points. Every subsequent takedown was 1 point. --A great idea to motivate people to wrestle from their feet for freestyle --- NOT.
Match length was variable as well. My first year in college matches were 3-3-3. I was scared that I wouldn't last so my first match I got a takedown and threw in the boots and rode like mad. I had over 8 minutes of riding time. They only gave me 2 points for it though.

 

[RandyL]

Thanks fellas...but still not quite 100% clear from your responses on the one issue.
Rght now I am only concerned with Matters time 1970, 1971 and 1972.

For that time period are you saying there was ONLY a 3-pt near fall, and no 2-pt predicament ?

 

[oldcougar65]

There were always two levels of near fall. When I first started, the predicment was 1 point. Sometime in the 60's they changed it to 2 points. So by 70-72, the predicament was a 2 point near fall. btw, they didn't count and award the points based upon the number of swipes. As I recall it was the 'angle' of the back. Past a certain point was a 3 point near fall. Less than that was a 2 or 1 point predicament, strictly based upon the ref's judgement. No room for controversy there.

and someone above mentioned Gene Mills. He was pretty much responsible for the superior and major decision and the tech fall. He was also responsible for the need to release a hold before getting more points. He was beating guys by 40 points with tilts that he never released. Just tilt 'em, flatten out, tilt 'em again. And on and on.

 

[RandyL]

thanks again fellas.

 

[matter7172]

btw, they didn't count and award the points based upon the number of swipes. As I recall it was the 'angle' of the back. Past a certain point was a 3 point near fall. Less than that was a 2 or 1 point predicament, strictly based upon the ref's judgement. No room for controversy there.

I started wrestling in 1970 and the 2/3 backpoints (predicament and near fall) was based up time of holding in the position. I recall it as 3 and 5 seconds, but I could be fuzzy on that.

 

[oldcougar65]

I started wrestling in 1970 and the 2/3 backpoints (predicament and near fall) was based up time of holding in the position. I recall it as 3 and 5 seconds, but I could be fuzzy on that.

you may well be right. The angle of the pinning hold was what was used in the early 60's. I don't remember it changing, but most everything did back then. I wrestled until '69 but can't recall what the scoring criteria was when I stopped. Which is weird cause at my age, one remembers what happend 50 years ago far more clearly than what happened yesterday.

 

[RandyL]

My recollection, such as it is, was that it depended on the angle..but it must have had some time requirement too.
Whatever it was, my impression is that it was not as easy as they award 2 pts today.

 

[lookleft goright]

I started wrestling in 1970 and the 2/3 backpoints (predicament and near fall) was based up time of holding in the position. I recall it as 3 and 5 seconds, but I could be fuzzy on that.

Are we getting that old that we can't remember that even. Yes it was 2 or 3 points depending on how long you held the guy there.

 

[Dogwelder]

Are we getting that old that we can't remember that even. ...

“Honey, where are my singlets?!?”

 

[AgSurfer]

The refs decision had to go. At the 1971 NCAA tournament at Auburn, there were several matches in the championship brackets where the losing wrestler was African American. Now I'm NOT insinuating that the refs were racist, but taking things at face value, you can be sure that there were people who questioned the motives behind each refs decision. A scoring system like that was just begging for trouble. Fortunately the NCAA implemented a more objective way to decide OT matches.

 

[matter7172]

The refs decision had to go. At the 1971 NCAA tournament at Auburn, there were several matches in the championship brackets where the losing wrestler was African American. Now I'm NOT insinuating that the refs were racist, but taking things at face value, you can be sure that there were people who questioned the motives behind each refs decision. A scoring system like that was just begging for trouble. Fortunately the NCAA implemented a more objective way to decide OT matches.

Meh. Current OT rules are awful. I thought there were objective criteria that controlled before, if none of those determined a winner, the referees' decision (plural) became the decider.

Btw, the only finals match that was a RD was the Matter/Shields match where there were two Caucasian wrestlers.

 

[KTG119]

Back when my son wrestled HS they had a clinician come in, I think maybe Gene Mills, but not sure. He said when he wrestled there were no tech falls so he would beat people by 20 points, or more. He said it was always hard for people to claim the were "caught in a freak move" when they would lose by 20 points.

Well Gene was a pinner, a mean machine, but could run it up as well. His senior year bracket run is sick; all pins except one that went distance 28-4 win.

 

[dolecda]

There is not enough discussion about Andy Matter and how good this guy really was. I remember him giving Lehigh's Jack Bentz (2 time defending EIWA champ) a beat down (14-5) during his sophomore year in 1970 that put Andy on the national radar.

 

[AgSurfer]

Btw, the only finals match that was a RD was the Matter/Shields match where there were two Caucasian wrestlers.

That's correct. For clarification, I was referring to the earlier rounds.

 

[AgSurfer]

There is not enough discussion about Andy Matter and how good this guy really was. I remember him giving Lehigh's Jack Bentz (2 time defending EIWA champ) a beat down (14-5) during his sophomore year in 1970 that put Andy on the national radar.

Just curious if anyone here knows Andy personally. I've met him on several occasions, and both he and his older brother Kemball are a couple of characters! They were both in our section at the 2011 NCAA , and had a lot of people laughing at some of their stories.

 

[Ja1339]

The two point nearfall was called a prediciment.

Everyone of Bo Nickels Iowa opponents had a predicament

 

[oldcougar65]

The refs decision had to go. At the 1971 NCAA tournament at Auburn, there were several matches in the championship brackets where the losing wrestler was African American. Now I'm NOT insinuating that the refs were racist, but taking things at face value, you can be sure that there were people who questioned the motives behind each refs decision. A scoring system like that was just begging for trouble. Fortunately the NCAA implemented a more objective way to decide OT matches.

I saw an OT high school match at District 3 finals. This was complicated by the fact that this was the first HS tourney I saw that kids wore ankle bands. Jesse Rawls - an African-American who later was state champ and had 2 sons who were state champs- in a red uniform, was given the green band. The other guy in a blue uniform was given the red band. Match went in to OT and still ended in a tie. After much deliberation among the refs, the lead ref came out and raised Rawls' hand. Crowd erupts. Other 2 refs are shaking their heads. My theory: they told the lead ref that "red" won, and Rawls was in the red uniform. He had to go out, stop Rawls from celebrating and then raise the other guy's hand. Pandemoneum ensued.
I saw the match and to me it was a coin toss as to who won. At the time I didn't think race had anything to do with it. But looking at it retroactively, one has to consider is as a factor.

 

[tomsc]

Well Gene was a pinner, a mean machine, but could run it up as well. His senior year bracket run is sick; all pins except one that went distance 28-4 win.

I remember watching Gene Mills wrestle. He was VERY fun to watch wrestle! He would have been a great Nittany Lion!

 

[tomsc]

Just curious if anyone here knows Andy personally. I've met him on several occasions, and both he and his older brother Kemball are a couple of characters! They were both in our section at the 2011 NCAA , and had a lot of people laughing at some of their stories.

I was on the team with Andy, and can say that he was a very personable guy. I was not a starter, but he was friendly with everyone, including me. He was a great wrestler, and very unpretentious. Yes, he had a good sense of humor. He and long-time PSU fan/supporter Ira Lubert loved to carry on together. Many may not know that in HS Matter wrestled future PSU wrestler Clyde Frantz in the state finals (Andy's junior year, and Clyde's senior year) and Frantz beat him.

 

[matter7172]

I saw an OT high school match at District 3 finals. This was complicated by the fact that this was the first HS tourney I saw that kids wore ankle bands. Jesse Rawls - an African-American who later was state champ and had 2 sons who were state champs- in a red uniform, was given the green band. The other guy in a blue uniform was given the red band. Match went in to OT and still ended in a tie. After much deliberation among the refs, the lead ref came out and raised Rawls' hand. Crowd erupts. Other 2 refs are shaking their heads. My theory: they told the lead ref that "red" won, and Rawls was in the red uniform. He had to go out, stop Rawls from celebrating and then raise the other guy's hand. Pandemoneum ensued.
I saw the match and to me it was a coin toss as to who won. At the time I didn't think race had anything to do with it. But looking at it retroactively, one has to consider is as a factor.

And Jesse wrestled for John Harris high school, so the match was in his home town!

 

[oldcougar65]

Seems to me, the match was at Steel-High. I was District 1. Our finals were Friday night, D3's finals were Saturday night. Combined we were the SE region. So a few of us went out to check out our opponents.

 

[AgSurfer]

I'm pretty sure that the D3 tournament was in the Harrisburg Farm Show arena back then. But no big deal either way.

Jesse Rawls is a name that I haven't heard in a long time. My recollection is that he never saw a wrestling mat until his family moved to PA. That loss in the D3 finals was the first year he wrestled. The following year he was PIAA state champion and he went on to be an AA for Michigan. I remember that his two sons were both really good too. I think they went to Susquehanna Township, same school as Ed Ruth.