Recruiting rankings pre-Internet

[Brian LB-U]

For those who tracked wrestling recruiting back in the days before the Internet explosion, online video and the proliferation of "national" tournaments, what were the main sources people used? I can't imagine there were many accurate sources of information 20, 30 or 40 years ago. I know for football I always bought a copy of Street & Smith's annual but it was pretty bad.

 

[nitlion6]

I always figured look to see who Gable wanted (got). Who Okie State got after that and you knew who most of the top dogs were.

 

[matter7172]

This is a great point, as Iowa always claims that Cael, only coaches mostly top10 P4P guys, while back in the day Gable routinely brought in unranked guys off of the farm and turned them into national champs. Back without all the videos and the internet and not having all the national HS tournaments that exist today, there were a lot more diamonds that were not widely known about.

Gable "found" a lot of guys in places like NJ and PA back then. It clearly wasn't the stone age.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Gable "found" a lot of guys in places like NJ and PA back then. It clearly wasn't the stone age.

News to me. Do you have a list of all of the PA kids that were AA under Gable?

 

[matter7172]

News to me. Do you have a list of all of the PA kids that were AA under Gable?

Off the top of my head, I can tell you Chris Campbell from Westfield NJ; Joe Melchiore from Highland Regional in NJ; Rico Chiapparelli from Maryland; the Banachs from Sussex County NJ and then Port Jervis NY; Ray Brinzer from North Allegheny.

 

[El-Jefe]

Here is a list of Iowa AAs thru 2010.
http://www.netitor.com/photos/schools/iowa/sports/m-wrestl/auto_pdf/allamericans.pdf

I don't remember where all were from (and disinclined to look them up!). Offhand: Brinzer and Strittmatter from PA. Mocco from NJ. Ryan from NY. Chiaparelli from MD.

My recollection is more that Gable got who he wanted in B10 Territory (Ohio thru Minny) and picked off a guy here or there from outside the region.

 

[CowboyUp61]

A lot of word of mouth from the high school coaches network. Some one who had wrestled at (insert school name here) saw a kid he thought would be good for his old school, and dropped a time to his old coach and said "you want to look at this kid from XXXX" . How a lot of it started back in my day.

 

[mrh1645]

I used to read WUSA magazine back in the day. They had All-America HS teams going back to the 60s.

http://www.wrestlingusa.com/high-school/all-americans.html

 

[nitlion6]

Gable only recruited a few PA kids. Steve Maurey (sp) from Altoona was first, Ray Brinzer from North Allegheny may have been the last. Stritmatter wrestled for Jim Z.

Iowa had a high level wrestling camp that kids from all over the country attended. Iowa got to see and measure many of the top kids up and close.

The Banach's may have been born in NJ, but the were recruited out of New York.

 

[matter7172]

The Banach's may have been born in NJ, but the were recruited out of New York.

I think Port Jervis NY in the late 70s qualifies as a "place like NJ and PA".

 

[NoVa Lion]

Here is a list of Iowa AAs thru 2010.
http://www.netitor.com/photos/schools/iowa/sports/m-wrestl/auto_pdf/allamericans.pdf

I don't remember where all were from (and disinclined to look them up!). Offhand: Brinzer and Strittmatter from PA. Mocco from NJ. Ryan from NY. Chiaparelli from MD.

My recollection is more that Gable got who he wanted in B10 Territory (Ohio thru Minny) and picked off a guy here or there from outside the region.

My memory too, hence my question? I don't think getting PA kids or even NJ kids had much to do with Gable's success. Strittmatter and Mocco did not wrestle for Gable.

 

[nitlion6]

I think Port Jervis NY in the late 70s qualifies as a "place like NJ and PA".

I took places like NJ and PA literally. Doesn't matter Gable got whatever Big10 talent he wanted, then picked what he thought would work from other regions.

How he became aware of these kids is not something I have ever read, but I have to believe it was a combination that included kids reaching out to Iowa, kids attending camps, HS coaches working the Iowa camps providing Intel.

 

[LorenzoFan]

Gable didn't get Brinzer from North Allegany, he got him from the Cowboys

I think the Internet, video tape, and "national tournaments" have changed the face of amateur wrestling considerably

 

[Lyons212]

Gable only recruited a few PSU kids. Steve Maurey (sp) from Altoona was first, Ray Brinzer from North Allegheny may have been the last. Stritmatter wrestled for Jim Z.

Iowa had a high level wrestling camp that kids from all over the country attended. Iowa got to see and measure many of the top kids up and close.

The Banach's may have been born in NJ, but the were recruited out of New York.

Brinzer literally just showed up on the Iowa campus with the Hawkeye wrestling club. Brad Penrith was from NY, another one outside the Midwest.

 

[nitlion6]

I have no idea how Brinzer found his way to Iowa City, but I remember reading Gable's assessment of PA kids.

I think at the time he had a total of 3 PA kids. He basically said I don't recruit PA kids. I have only ever had 3 (or 4) and one had a breakdown (Maurey) one couldn't wrestle and another was just flat out crazy (Brinzer).

 

[a_mshaffer]

I have no idea how Brinzer found his way to Iowa City, but I remember reading Gable's assessment of PA kids.

I think at the time he had a total of 3 PA kids. He basically said I don't recruit PA kids. I have only ever had 3 (or 4) and one had a breakdown (Maurey) one couldn't wrestle and another was just flat out crazy (Brinzer).

what's the scoop with Maurey? I recall him wrestling but at the time I didn't pay much attention. His Dad and Uncles won many a Pa State titles for Clearfield.

 

[Brian LB-U]

I have no idea how Brinzer found his way to Iowa City, but I remember reading Gable's assessment of PA kids.

I think at the time he had a total of 3 PA kids. He basically said I don't recruit PA kids. I have only ever had 3 (or 4) and one had a breakdown (Maurey) one couldn't wrestle and another was just flat out crazy (Brinzer).

Brinzer talked about it in a recent podcast with Jason Bryant. Basically, he wasn't happy at Oklahoma State so he left and traveled to Bulgaria to train. He stayed there till he ran out of money and booked a flight to Iowa City, where he showed up unannounced. He enrolled in classes before even bothering to speak with Gable. Interesting character.

 

[dropster45]

I have no idea how Brinzer found his way to Iowa City, but I remember reading Gable's assessment of PA kids.

I think at the time he had a total of 3 PA kids. He basically said I don't recruit PA kids. I have only ever had 3 (or 4) and one had a breakdown (Maurey) one couldn't wrestle and another was just flat out crazy (Brinzer).

We sure had a lot of “lazy” AA’s and National Champs coming out of PA back in that era. Surely trounced whatever Iowa was producing or any other state for that matter.

 

[T J]

We sure had a lot of “lazy” AA’s and National Champs coming out of PA back in that era. Surely trounced whatever Iowa was producing or any other state for that matter.

There have been lists of the number of NCAA qualifiers per year, by state.

Iirc, PA was generally the state that produced the most NCAA qualifiers by a long shot. Other top states included OH and NJ iirc. (That was a reason the Penn State job was a Mecca waiting for the right head coach and staff. PA has lots of talent as well as nearby states within reasinable driving distances.)

Is there a link to those lists by year?

It might be interesting to see how well PA has contributed to NCAA qualifiers during the years they have records.

Was PA essentially always at or near the top? Other states?

Did any events significantly increase or decrease the PA numbers and/or their ranking vs other states?​

 

[T J]

There have been lists of the number of NCAA qualifiers per year, by state.

Iirc, PA was generally the state that produced the most NCAA qualifiers by a long shot. Other top states included OH and NJ iirc. (That was a reason the Penn State job was a Mecca waiting for the right head coach and staff. PA has lots of talent as well as nearby states within reasinable driving distances.)

Is there a link to those lists by year?

It might be interesting to see how well PA has contributed to NCAA qualifiers during the years they have records.

Was PA essentially always at or near the top? Other states?

Did any events significantly increase or decrease the PA numbers and/or their ranking vs other states?​

From 2015 article:

NCAA Wrestling Championships: Pennsylvania leads all states in qualifiers. See the complete list (at link)

By Jeremy Elliott | jelliott@pennlive.com
Follow on Twitter
on March 18, 2015 at 3:02 PM, updated March 18, 2015 at 4:46 PM


Pennsylvania is top dog....again.

When the NCAA Division I Wrestling Championship brackets were released, there were 48 wrestlers from the Keystone State scattered across the 10 weight classes. Ohio is second on the list with 36.

New Jersey checks in with 30 qualifiers, followed by Illinois (26) and California (19). Iowa, surprisingly, is sixth with 16.

The championships get underway at the Scottrade Center in St. Louis Thursday at 11 a.m. and will run through Saturday night.

http://www.pennlive.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/03/ncaa_wrestling_championships_l.html
​

 

[07mantle]

This is a great point, as Iowa always claims that Cael, only coaches mostly top10 P4P guys, while back in the day Gable routinely brought in unranked guys off of the farm and turned them into national champs. Back without all the videos and the internet and not having all the national HS tournaments that exist today, there were a lot more diamonds that were not widely known about.

now I am only repeating what was a well known story about how great Gable was at 'recruiting' ..and how he 'manipulated' (don't necessarily mean this as in an illegal way) scholarship money for quite a while until things were corrected ..but that Iowa (Gable) basically interpreted all scholarship money as 'out of state' and pretty much had lots of extra money (interpret that as 'slush fund if you will) to offer wrestlers

 

[ac98]

http://www.wrestlingusa.com/high-school/all-americans.html

 

[Lyco1990]

Back in the day I wrestled with Charlie Heller 3x All American at Clarion, was recruited and initial went to Iowa. Banich was his issue.Gable oked the transfer I’ve always respected that. Never been able to walk upright since, thanks Charlie.Fn power half

 

[diggerpup]

Before the Interwebs, did most coaches keep all their recruiting info in 3-inch binders?

Especially the Gold Intel ?

.... asking for a friend.

 

[dropster45]

now I am only repeating what was a well known story about how great Gable was at 'recruiting' ..and how he 'manipulated' (don't necessarily mean this as in an illegal way) scholarship money for quite a while until things were corrected ..but that Iowa (Gable) basically interpreted all scholarship money as 'out of state' and pretty much had lots of extra money (interpret that as 'slush fund if you will) to offer wrestlers

Yes that’s correct on Iowa and their scholarships. By counting all their scholarships as out of state, they effectively doubled their scholarship $. Huge advantage that was.

 

[PSUaggie]

Wait, I thought Gable invented the internet, along with Iowa inventing wrestling, etc, etc???

 

[RoarLions1]

During the Gable years, here's the home state breakdown for the majority (all? done quickly, so not sure I managed to catch ALL of them) of 4-time AA's and/or multiple-time champions at Iowa. Only wanted to catch their top performers;

Iowa - 2
New Jersey - 2
Nebraska - 2
Indiana - 1
South Dakota - 2
California - 1
Illinois - 3
Ohio - 1
Colorado - 1
North Dakota - 1

As I said, may have missed some. This data shows Gable's reach when recruiting top talent...with limited reach into PA. Ray Brinzer (already mentioned) wasn't really a recruit, but did come from PA, as others have noted.

Edit: Removed Kevin Darkus, as he was at Iowa St., not Iowa...thanks mrh!!

 

[mrh1645]

During the Gable years, here's the home state breakdown for the majority (all? done quickly, so not sure I managed to catch ALL of them) of 4-time AA's and/or multiple-time champions at Iowa. Only wanted to catch their top performers;

Iowa - 2
New Jersey - 2
Nebraska - 2
Indiana - 1
South Dakota - 2
California - 1
Illinois - 3
Ohio - 1
Colorado - 1
North Dakota - 1

As I said, may have missed some. This data shows Gable's reach when recruiting top talent...with limited reach into PA. Kevin Darkus (3-time AA) and Ray Brinzer (already mentioned) were PA recruits, not much more.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post, but Darkus was at Iowa State, not Iowa. Just off the top of my head, I remember Mike DeAnna, Jim Heffernan, and John Heffernan from Ohio being multi AAs at Iowa and the Kistler brothers (3 of them) being AAs from Calif. at Iowa.

 

[dunkej01]

Gable only recruited a few PA kids. Steve Maurey (sp) from Altoona was first, Ray Brinzer from North Allegheny may have been the last. Stritmatter wrestled for Jim Z.

Iowa had a high level wrestling camp that kids from all over the country attended. Iowa got to see and measure many of the top kids up and close.

The Banach's may have been born in NJ, but the were recruited out of New York.

Gable recruited PA, he just didnt land every kid he recruited. A friend of mine here in PA was recruited by gable, with gable coming to his house and the whole deal. He went to the school for a visit but in the end he went to a different school.

Gable was all over as far as I know, watching tape, meeting people, talking to coaches, calling on people he trusted, etc. Listening to a recent podcast with Tom, he views his role differently was my take away. Tom is the CEO and primarily a closer on campus with respect to recruiting. Whereas M* is the guy running around, watching tape and meeting/talking to people. Back in the day I think Gable did it all.

 

[RoarLions1]

Gable recruited PA, he just didnt land every kid he recruited. A friend of mine here in PA was recruited by gable, with gable coming to his house and the whole deal. He went to the school for a visit but in the end he went to a different school.

Gable was all over as far as I know, watching tape, meeting people, talking to coaches, calling on people he trusted, etc. Listening to a recent podcast with Tom, he views his role differently was my take away. Tom is the CEO and primarily a closer on campus with respect to recruiting. Whereas M* is the guy running around, watching tape and meeting/talking to people. Back in the day I think Gable did it all.

Thing is, to me...Al Gore's Internet has changed everything. It wasn't a tool in the '70's, '80's, and 90's. Neither were the national tournaments today's HS kids wrestle at.

Word-of-mouth, networking, looking at State Tournament results, along with recruiting time on-the-road to see potential recruits and talk to the parents...was much different than today. Apples-to-oranges really.

 

[RoarLions1]

There have been lists of the number of NCAA qualifiers per year, by state.

Iirc, PA was generally the state that produced the most NCAA qualifiers by a long shot. Other top states included OH and NJ iirc. (That was a reason the Penn State job was a Mecca waiting for the right head coach and staff. PA has lots of talent as well as nearby states within reasinable driving distances.)

Is there a link to those lists by year?

It might be interesting to see how well PA has contributed to NCAA qualifiers during the years they have records.

Was PA essentially always at or near the top? Other states?

Did any events significantly increase or decrease the PA numbers and/or their ranking vs other states?​

I have data from 2009 through 2017, sliced and diced a number of ways. Is there anything specific someone wants to see?

 

[T J]

I have data from 2009 through 2017, sliced and diced a number of ways. Is there anything specific someone wants to see?

As mentioned in the previous post

It might be interesting to see how well PA has contributed to NCAA qualifiers during the years they have records.

Was PA essentially always at or near the top? Other states?

Did any events significantly increase or decrease the PA numbers and/or their ranking vs other states?


=====

So, if not too much trouble Roar, when has PA been at the Top?

How hard is a top 5 or Top 3 list going back to say the Iowa Stae era in the 60s & 70s?

Was there a change during the Gable era?

What about the modern Cael era?

Don't put yourself out Roar. If you see something interesting or any trends, and want to post it, please do. Or if you have a link, I might play with it a bit. Again, post or don't post as you wish.
​

 

[RoarLions1]

As mentioned in the previous post

It might be interesting to see how well PA has contributed to NCAA qualifiers during the years they have records.

Was PA essentially always at or near the top? Other states?

Did any events significantly increase or decrease the PA numbers and/or their ranking vs other states?


=====

So, if not too much trouble Roar, when has PA been at the Top?

How hard is a top 5 or Top 3 list going back to say the Iowa Stae era in the 60s & 70s?

Was there a change during the Gable era?

What about the modern Cael era?

Don't put yourself out Roar. If you see something interesting or any trends, and want to post it, please do. Or if you have a link, I might play with it a bit. Again, post or don't post as you wish.
​

Those are all good questions. I've never seen that level of detail for all states, including not just AA's, but qualifiers too.

 

[HAMMER167]

I used to read WUSA magazine back in the day. They had All-America HS teams going back to the 60s.

http://www.wrestlingusa.com/high-school/all-americans.html

Yep that was the list you wanted to be on. Here’s my year... There’s also a PSU all American lineman on that list who’s son just won a Super Bowl.
http://www.wrestlingusa.com/high-school/ewExternalFiles/1978 High School All-Americans1.pdf

 

[dropster45]

Here’s a list that shows where NCAA Champs and AA’s came from during the last 50 years(up til 2011). From 2011 thru current day the data is probably similar. Iowa has done a very good job.
No one else is even close to PA.

NCAA Wrestling Champions and All-Americans by State

These graphics show how many individuals who originally came from the state listed where they went to high school, and later won NCAA Championships and/or achieved All-American status.

1961-2011

State/Country, Individual NCAA Champs, Total Championships, Individuals All-Americans, Total AA’s:
Pennsylvania 55 73 295 504
Iowa 48 68 186 350
Ohio 28 37 177 313
Oklahoma 34 50 134 271
Illinois 26 30 137 242
California 25 36 152 240
New Jersey 25 39 123 213
New York 24 31 133 211
Michigan 14 24 103 182
Minnesota 9 11 78 128
Oregon 15 21 73 125
Wisconsin 12 17 49 82
Colorado 8 9 49 75
Virginia 8 10 38 58
Washington 4 6 36 53
Florida 3 3 27 45
Missouri 3 4 30 44
Indiana 3 3 26 44
Arizona 5 5 23 40
South Dakota 5 8 18 38
Kansas 2 3 20 37
Maryland 3 3 23 36
Montana 3 3 17 34
Idaho 2 4 20 34
Utah 2 5 17 29
Japan 5 7 8 20
Nebraska 1 1 11 19
Tennessee 2 2 8 16
Nevada 0 0 10 16
North Dakota 2 2 8 13
North Carolina 1 1 6 11
Texas 1 2 7 10
Delaware 1 1 7 10
Wyoming 0 0 9 10
New Mexico 0 0 8 10
Georgia 0 0 7 10
Massachusetts 1 1 6 9
West Virginia 0 0 4 8
Hawaii 1 2 2 6
South Carolina 0 0 3 6
Iran 0 0 3 3
Louisiana 0 0 2 3
New Hampshire 0 0 2 3
Alaska 0 0 2 2
Canada 0 0 1 1
Connecticut 0 0 1 1
Germany 0 0 1 1
Hungary 0 0 1 1
Mongolia 0 0 1 1
Russia 0 0 1 1
South Africa 0 0 1 1
Vermont 0 0 1 1
Uzbekistan 0 0 1 1
Totals 381 522 2106 3622

 

[T J]

Here’s a list that shows where NCAA Champs and AA’s came from during the last 50 years(up til 2011). From 2011 thru current day the data is probably similar. Iowa has done a very good job. No one else is even close.

NCAA Wrestling Champions and All-Americans by State

These graphics show how many individuals who originally came from the state listed where they went to high school, and later won NCAA Championships and/or achieved All-American status.

1961-2011

State/Country, Individual NCAA Champs, Total Championships, Individuals All-Americans, Total AA’s:
Pennsylvania 55 73 295 504
Iowa 48 68 186 350
Ohio 28 37 177 313
Oklahoma 34 50 134 271
Illinois 26 30 137 242
California 25 36 152 240
New Jersey 25 39 123 213
New York 24 31 133 211
Michigan 14 24 103 182
Minnesota 9 11 78 128
Oregon 15 21 73 125
Wisconsin 12 17 49 82
Colorado 8 9 49 75
Virginia 8 10 38 58
Washington 4 6 36 53
Florida 3 3 27 45
Missouri 3 4 30 44
Indiana 3 3 26 44
Arizona 5 5 23 40
South Dakota 5 8 18 38
Kansas 2 3 20 37
Maryland 3 3 23 36
Montana 3 3 17 34
Idaho 2 4 20 34
Utah 2 5 17 29
Japan 5 7 8 20
Nebraska 1 1 11 19
Tennessee 2 2 8 16
Nevada 0 0 10 16
North Dakota 2 2 8 13
North Carolina 1 1 6 11
Texas 1 2 7 10
Delaware 1 1 7 10
Wyoming 0 0 9 10
New Mexico 0 0 8 10
Georgia 0 0 7 10
Massachusetts 1 1 6 9
West Virginia 0 0 4 8
Hawaii 1 2 2 6
South Carolina 0 0 3 6
Iran 0 0 3 3
Louisiana 0 0 2 3
New Hampshire 0 0 2 3
Alaska 0 0 2 2
Canada 0 0 1 1
Connecticut 0 0 1 1
Germany 0 0 1 1
Hungary 0 0 1 1
Mongolia 0 0 1 1
Russia 0 0 1 1
South Africa 0 0 1 1
Vermont 0 0 1 1
Uzbekistan 0 0 1 1
Totals 381 522 2106 3622

Excellent dropster45!

Interesting to note that

PA is #1

Plus 3 states bordering PA are in the top 8: #3 OH, #7 NJ and #8 NY.

So from a practical standpoint, PSU is centrally located and within driving distance of 4 of the top 8 states, including overwhelming leader, PA.

It's the perfect spot to build a Taj Mahal of a Wrestling complex and then staff it with the best coaches in the business.

Good plan and imho,
they executed the plan very well.
​