Roster caps and Increasing Scholarship limits
- Thread starter backdrft76
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Pyles - "Incredibly significant"
Not really.
There's still only 10 starting spots, so you are going to have a hard time accumulating more talent than PSU has now.
NIL already gave everyone a legal way to circumvent the need for scholarships and make sure the impact guys (for PSU that is around 20 guys on the roster right now) aren't out of pocket for tuition/room&board.
We've probably got enough money in our AD to make sure the final 10 walk-on guys now get schollies as well - so it is an impact for them personally, but not on competitive balance. Of course the counter to that is that guys like Sean Wang and the enthusiastic little guy from Iowa are probably getting squeezed out of roster spots.
The other top teams are in the same boat, so again it's about getting the right guys to come to your school and stay - which is what we've been doing all this time.
Pyles with some pretty weak insta-analysis unless maybe he's referring to the negative impact that this may have on the bottom tier of programs, who may not get the guys they were getting who can't get fulls or NIL packages from the big dogs. They may take a full scholly to be the 22nd guy on PSU or OSU or whoever. But I doubt that is what he means.
Agree to disagree here, I think some kids are willing to wait and not be an instant starter at PSU if they think it is their best chance to win a title. We see that already. But not every kid can (nor should they) pass up getting their education paid for to take that chance. Cassar mentioned he thought about leaving because he had to foot his own bill as an out of state student and it was expensive. We see kids take less obviously and not have a clear path to the lineup here but we don't know how many kids elsewhere that might be here if they were given a full.
I'll venture a guess and say I think some kids have passed on PSU because of that or because Cael asked for them to delay enrollment as more of the 9.9 opened (like Beard was willing to do) I think this helps PSU tremendously.
Yes, but that was under the old system. That's not the landscape in the last few years. If Cassar were a freshman in 2022 or 2023 he wouldn't have been footing his own bill.
Yeah, it's a big departure from the landscape pre-Covid or so, but it's not a departure based on the current landscape. This is why you see that we have added an extra 5 or 6 elite guys to our roster over the past couple of years that probably wouldn't have been here before. PSU has already reaped those gains tremendously. OSU (this year), Michigan and tOSU less so, but they still have gained. Iowa, not so much.
If you think we can roster 30 elite guys - then, yeah, we could gain some more. But I don't think so. We're at about 20 right now and that is just barely manageable. If we do go to 30, then, yes, we will probably see a bunch of portals from PSU like everybody has unsuccessfully predicted for the last few years.
Of note, I count 37 wrestlers with the incoming frosh on the roster for next year. Generally, we also add one or two that nobody was aware of (walk-ons) in the fall, and generally a couple fall off as well. I don't think these roster limits are in play this year, but next year when it is enacted, guys like Wentzel, Rodriguez, Wang, Kelly, Vespa are probably not going to be able to wrestle for PSU. And that's the biggest shame of this.
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Can guys like Wang not be on roster and still be a part of the team if they want? They don't go many places with the team anyway as far as I know. Kids like him obviously love the sport and doesn't care if he makes the Lineup or not and does some good for the team as far as (not limited too) morale goes, so it seems. They talk about him alot and only hear great things about him. It would be a shame to not have that kind of personality on the team because of roster cap, a shame for those kinda kids too.
That's true and let me backtrack a bit. NIL does help cover the bills of some kids who can't get a full but it's a lot easier when you can just say "You make the team and you're on full" (something I am sure Kraft will support)
Your last sentence is 100% correct, at the gain of maybe more top end HS recruits will come at the expense of the room guys. That is a tremendous shame because those guys are essential for the room and their losses should not be underestimated. Big part of PSU is culture, you see clearly with guys like Sean Wang being a staple of the team off the mat. Balancing that will be tough. What makes what Cael built here special is it's not just some wrestling factory.
I honestly worry if there will even room for the Donovan Ball's of the world going forward (someone who AB views as his ideal practice partner)
Wang would 100% still be a part of the team because he built the comraderie with everyone at practice first. But adding more kids like him going forward will be less and less likely.
We have a club team and that's where they will likely end up. Scotty Stossel transitioned from club to the roster successfully a couple of years ago, maybe there have been one or two others. But, no, they can not be part of the team if they are not rostered.
Yes I get that about Wang I only used his name for the scenario, yes, I was curious of the new ones.
I am not sure I like this. It hurts the little guys, many of whom already can't pay out 9.9.
I hope that we will stay right around that 20, or maybe slightly higher, elite wrestlers and Cael will keep identifying these walk-ons that flourish in our room and the benefit will be that they earn a full scholly.
As long as we keep identifying and developing the right 20 or so, we are still in great shape, because there is a finite number of guys like that and no staff is even close to being as successful in turning them into elite NCAA wrestlers. Or let me re-phrase - ultra-elite. Generational, if you will, lol.
But without directly naming names directly, I know several guys who AA'ed elsewhere who likely have been at PSU if they were offered a full or even a half scholarship out of HS (even without a clear path to the lineup when being recruited) Another kid who also didn't come because he was asked to delay enrollment since his scholarship (which wasn't near a full) wasn't available immediately out of HS
We also have guys like Nick Lee and Zack Ryder who skip senior year of HS to get in state tuition instead
We also have guys like Nick Lee and Zack Ryder who skip senior year of HS to get in state tuition instead
Yes, that could be a side effect of this. I doubt we get much better than we are though. More likely, we finally start seeing a couple of transfers out per year if this happens. It's one thing to be 2nd on the depth chart here, you still get your occasional shot. Probably a little different to be 3rd or 4th.
It gives Cael even more options to play with and we see how essential depth is to all of this.
I also think Cael will balance it like you said and fully fund the team, he's a huge believer in rewarding everyone on the team. I think someone mentioned he tries to make sure everyone at least gets book money and maybe some extra meal points if possible if they're putting in the work. If he has a chance to get a kid on his team doing all the right things (even if the kid might not wrestle a dual ever) a free education, he's going to do it.
Carmine says you should never say Wang and 9.9 in the same sentence.
IMO going from 9.9 to 30 certainly helps PSU more than it hurts IMO.
NIL is only 1 leg of the stool. If you can get a free ride, and be coached by the greatest legend in the sport, wrestle in the best room in the country, get a hand full of NC rings while you are there, gain access to the NLWC and all that this brings, get the best path to a freestyle post collegiate career.... and the list goes on.
I can see some hammers sacrificing and accepting only 2-3 years as a starter to be at PSU, if they get a full ride to do so. Doing the same on only a half or a quarter scholy? Maybe not.
NIL will definitely buy some kids, but we have good NIL money and the very best of everything else.
IMO going from 9.9 to 30 certainly helps PSU more than it hurts IMO.
NIL is only 1 leg of the stool. If you can get a free ride, and be coached by the greatest legend in the sport, wrestle in the best room in the country, get a hand full of NC rings while you are there, gain access to the NLWC and all that this brings, get the best path to a freestyle post collegiate career.... and the list goes on.
I can see some hammers sacrificing and accepting only 2-3 years as a starter to be at PSU, if they get a full ride to do so. Doing the same on only a half or a quarter scholy? Maybe not.
NIL will definitely buy some kids, but we have good NIL money and the very best of everything else.
Not necessarily. Many are far less expensive than the big boys, especially for out of state. Maybe not free for as many, OTOH parents send their kids to expensive private and out-of-state schools already.
The one school this will hurt is Northwestern, as their 18-ish roster size is school imposed.
Totally agree on roster limit being a shame. These guys do a lot of work with no notoriety or compensation because they love the sport and they make the team better in and out of the gym. These are your academics, lifting partner, roommate, character guys.
If you look at current and proposed scholarship limits, this is going to play hell with Title IX compliance. In several sports, women were getting more scholarships than men in the same sport. Evening up rosters will create an imbalance in favor of men. Happily, I have a proposal to address this new imbalance - women's wrestling. Maybe supplement with a tumbling team, whatever that is.
The university is not spitting out full scholarships for all athletes. The annual expense is what $5m now.
Perfect timing for DT at Okie State. Transfer portal will be very active now as the top schools can’t stockpile talent. You can’t sign kids just so the other guy doesn’t!
Not a ton to add that hasn't already been discussed. The real significance is the roster limit but even that will be manageable over time.
I can see some teams offering more in the way of scholarships, but there will be a point past the 20th guy where diminishing returns make offering even partial scholarships nonproductive for the school. The economics of wrestling won't support 20 full scholarships let alone 30. Heck, the current 9.9 isn't paying its own freight so this may be a gift without many takers.
I can see some teams offering more in the way of scholarships, but there will be a point past the 20th guy where diminishing returns make offering even partial scholarships nonproductive for the school. The economics of wrestling won't support 20 full scholarships let alone 30. Heck, the current 9.9 isn't paying its own freight so this may be a gift without many takers.
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I am not sure that there will be an evening of rosters within the same sports, even with the new scholarship limits, because many of the current imbalances are caused by football giving men so many scholarships with women not having football scholarships to even things out. Title IX means those additional women's scholarships will have to go somewhere, either through imbalanced rosters for the same sports, or through women having sports teams that the men at the same school don't have. The new limits won't change that. Men's non-revenue sports will likely still be shorted to free those scholarships up for football to meet Title IX requirements.
And another way to free up roster space is to simply reduce the number of teams that get scholarship support. Eliminate teams and save all the scholarship money plus other expenses like coaches salaries, equipment, practice facilities, training tables, trainers, support staff, etc. Schools that can't match the big boys will start to specialize in certain sports and eliminate others. I foresee a lot of downsizing.
It ain't gonna be pretty.
It ain't gonna be pretty.
So what is the NCAA's true angle here? Short term to get Congress and the court system off its back? Because they know these new scholarship limits won't be filled so it's an empty promise. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the politics of this because on the surface raising the scholly limits don't make ANY sense economically. With NIL now in play, I could have seen them lower the limit to level the playing field with other schools, and let the big boys play with the NIL to separate themselves from the smaller schools.
The danger here is that the NCAA is now imposing harsher roster limits to get around Title IX rather than scholly limits. When do we see wrestling going to a 25 person roster? Then 20? Maybe that is why this was done and in this way.
The danger here is that the NCAA is now imposing harsher roster limits to get around Title IX rather than scholly limits. When do we see wrestling going to a 25 person roster? Then 20? Maybe that is why this was done and in this way.
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Looking at just its last in PSU (the sport’s juggernaut) isn’t the best way to view its impact IMO. This legislation will potentially provide more scholarship opportunities for kids across sports. There may be kids getting scholarships now that would have been either ending college with mountains of debt, or not gone to college at all. Looks like life changing legislation to me
Interested to hear collective thoughts on the new NcAA scholorship limits that were announced yesterday. Men’s Wrestling goes from 9.9 to 30. Will this encourage hoarding or will rational economics hold sway?
How will it be life changing if the universities don't have to spend any more than what they were? The only real change here was to DECREASE participants in the sport through roster limits rather than through scholarships. Since no one will give out 30 scholarships or anywhere close to it due to economics, this legislation is in essence contracting the sport of wrestling overall to help with Title IX.
So yes, in a way you are correct. This will be life changing for wrestling. High school kids will now have 2,340 roster spots to wrestle on a D1 college team rather than 2,886. A decrease of 546 roster spots overnight. A 19% contraction in D1. 78 schools times 37 roster spots now versus 30 in the future. That is a promise from the NCAA. They sprinkled sugar on top of it and made it all look yummy but you'll likely be served this turd without much if any of the sugar happening. This is a huge loss for D1 wrestling IMHO.
Edit to add that some schools don't fill their rosters now to the limit but the larger point remains.
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Who was stockpiling talent within the 9.9 scholarship linit?
Just an opinion, it was done to remove the NCAA from the regulation aspect. The NCAA does stupid shyt as a rule of thumb, but always with the permission and probably guidance of the university presidents. The organization keeps getting their ass beat to death in the courts and it is costing them a ton of cash. Lossing money is the polar opposite of their job description.
Their only function(s) will eventually be to arrange post season competitions and host social functions.
How will this hurt Northwestern (or other teams with school-impsed caps)? I'd think they would be least impacted as they won't have to cut any spots
I do think that this will kill off some of the little guys. First, their athletic budgets will take.a hit from the settlement payout. Second, their best recruits will be more likely to choose a Power 5 school if schollys imcrease at the big boys. I hope that I am wrong.
Because now everybody with sufficient fundraising can offer more than NW's 18 rides. Also, with NW's costs, it'll be easier for nearly every other program to raise that money.
If you loook at NW's recent performance -- let's say the Cael Era -- they typically qualify less than half of their starters, and have several woeful starters. Plus some of their best starters leave because of grad school admissions. This rule change won't affect their issues positively.
I guess the current PSU Wrestling fundraiser and other future ones are to build a scholarship fund within the program beyond the 9.9 the school will provide.
Maybe I missed this, but ... I get the roster and scholarship increases. Have they done away with partial scholarships for the non-revenue sports?
No. They just revised the upper limit from 9.9 to 30. You can now provide whatever percent of a full scholarship you want for all 30 roster spots. You can still do 9.9 exactly as you have as if nothing has changed.
Yikes… so how or who will pay for more scholies at most of these schools including dear ole state?
