Scott and Reeder .....
- Thread starter Rip_E_2_Joe_PA
- Start date
Amazing how Reeder got to the NFL via Delaware. How many recruits over the years claimed they chose a certain school because they “put guys in the NFL”. You put yourself in the NFL
You're right but certain coaches are better at developing players.
Nick Scott is a guy who could testify about how position changes can work out and how important special teams are.
This is a half truth.
About 25% of the NFL is from non-power 5 schools, another roughly 35% are from schools that aren't great (ie... a Georgia Tech/WVU types of that of lower level conference teams in power 5 conferences). WVU has 20 players in the NFL.
The Alabama's, Clemson's and Ohio State's don't have more players in the NFL because of their coaching, they have more player in the NFL because they have double or triple the number of players on their roster who came to school as bonafide potential NFL players....They are recruiting way more NFL types than say Virginia Tech. Alabama only has like 1 or 2 three star guys a class, the rest are 4 star or better, same with OSU, Georgia, Clemson, etc. So if Alabama is getting 12 guys drafted each year of a 20 player recruiting class, they are succeeding at like 60-65% in getting guys to the league. So obviously a certain number of those players meet their NFL draft destiny, whereas someone like Cooper Kupp at Eastern Washington has to earn it by being spectacular. The one thing you can say about the NFL factory types is that they get some players an opportunity to get drafted because they overperform in college based on the fact they play with great talent and it makes them better than they probably are. That's why those schools also have bigger busts.
Okay I’ll bite. How many players other than Reeder (who left PSU to play with his brother) have those great coaches at Delaware playing in the NFL currently?
Going somewhere where ou get plenty of playing time helps. There is no amount of practice for improving a player’s skills that is the same as actual game experience.
I give coaches more credit for identifying the talent and getting the talent to commit to their school than I do them developing a player. Charles Huff and James Franklin didn't do anything for Saquon Barkey, his skill set and attitude are what set him apart but apparently not many coaches saw him that way considering Franklin flipped him from Rutgers. They identified his talent, when other coaches didn't. The game, and all games, are about players, not coaches.
Agreed....and this self-loathing needs to be offset by the number of players who transferred into PSU who clearly have increased their NFL opportunities (Arnold E, Brown and Brisker).
I have no idea how many current Blue Hens are in the NFL, but generally speaking, in the days before unfettered transfers and instant eligibility between P5 programs, Delaware made a good living getting disgruntled P5 players.
Joe Flacco, sPitt never was, is probably the most famous.
Who was the PSU QB that went there and just missed making the NFL, IIRC?
Will be interesting to see how they fare now that FBS transfers don't require sitting a year.
Coaches can be very important to a player’s development. Players are human and go through cycles like all of us. A good coach will get them through the tough times. Motivate a players when he isn’t playing much and is down about it. Or over coming an injury. Or just getting them to work harder, study techniques, study opponents film, weight training, nutrition, and more. Why do you think the great players all have sports psychologists?
Bill ‘the Tuna’ Parcels was known as a mastermind of using psychology to motivate his players. Little subtle digs that would motivate players. One example: While coaching the Giants and Phil Simms. There was a Monday Night game between two other teams in which one QB had a record breaking night. Next morning he sees Simms in hallway and says ‘Did you see so-and-so last night? Wouldn’t it be great to be able to play like that?’ and walked away. Simms said it pissed him off and made him want to show his coach he could play the same way. Genius!
Pat Devlin, who did spend some time in the NFL. Also, remember Rich Gannon
Sometimes.
If players don't have a good work ethic, they'll never be good and never have longevity, no matter how much physical talent they have. That's not my quote that's the quote of a friend who is a multiple time Stanley cup champ as a player and as 20+ year scout for an NHL team.
Getting someone fired up can be as detrimental as beneficial. The Parcells stuff sometimes works for a certain game but it has nothing to with a player's body of work. It's about the players mental makeup & work ethic not what a drill Sargent can get out of them. Being a professional athlete is about work ethic and talent of the player. If you need some outside influence to motivate you, your time will be limited.
It's about the player......Always.
If Pat Narduzzi took over Alabama tomorrow, they'd still make the playoffs next year and not because Pat would be the coach, but because they have a collection of great players. More than all the other teams competing against them.
The reason Alabama is the favorite to win the national title every year is because they have the best players on paper every single year. It's an upset when they don't end up in the championship or even win it. That is for one reason and one reason only, they have the most talented roster in college football annually.
If you swapped the coaching staff of Kansas and Alabama, Alabama would do way better than Kansas but if you swapped the players from Alabama to Kansas, Kansas would do much better.
It's always about players. Coaches make a difference when two teams are equally matched, which isn't often in college football....and even then it typically comes down to a player making a play at the end.
If you swapped the coaching staff of Kansas and Alabama, Alabama would do way better than Kansas but if you swapped the players from Alabama to Kansas, Kansas would do much better.
It's always about players. Coaches make a difference when two teams are equally matched, which isn't often in college football....and even then it typically comes down to a player making a play at the end.
Nassir Adderley was on the Chargers- distant cousin of a Hall of Famer- went to Great Valley HS with Buckholtz- not good enough for us- but good enough for NFL.
It works both ways- do talented kids make the coach or vice versa. The Tight End Upshaw who chose FSU over us was on West Chester U's roster last year....he was a high 4 star....mixed bag for sure
Obviously, having God given talent is important as is a solid work ethic. But talk to or listen to interviews or read about most star athletes and almost all will credit a good coach with having a major impact on their career. Usually several coaches.
If you don’t get, not much I can do about it.
Off the top of my head...Nick Boyle, Zach Kerr, Nasir Adderley and Joe Flacco in addition to Reeder--I'm sure there's more I don't know right off.
I'm not even sure what your point is? I didn't say the Delaware coaches are better than our coaches or anything insane. I said some coaches are better at developing talent. I don't understand why you or anyone would question that. Obviously not all coaches are the same.
Saquon is listed as 6'0, 208 lbs with a 4.66 40 coming out of high school in 2015. Just 4 years later he was 233 with a 4.4 time at the combine and routinely ran 4.3s based on reports from within the PSU program. In addition to his physical development, he also was showcased in many nationally televised games that helped raise his profile. Do you think he would have been as successful at Rutgers?
And why do you think they have that roster? Do you think much happens by chance at Alabama? Kansas might be a bad example - Lance Leipold won many D3 championships. Give him Alabama talent and he might do the same in D1.
That is precisely my point, that any professionally competent coaching staff could take over at Alabama and be wildly successful. You know why? because their players are better than everyone else. Who would have thought?
I think coaches are great and make many positive and negative influences on players, I just don't think it matters all that much who those coaches are. The tight ends coach at Kent State might have a bigger impact on the physical, mental and emotional development of some student athlete, than Nick Saban. It just so happens that Saban gets to carve his statues from gold instead of a block of tin. I'd be willing to bet most players on the Alabama team have had limited private experiences and encounters with Saban anyhow. It's not like the head coach of Alabama is carving out a half hour weekly to hang out with the redshirt sophomore scout team defensive tackle and get to know him.
Seriously man, if you're attributing Saquon Barkley's freakishness to a coaching staff I don't even know what to say because that train of thought is so disconnected from reality.
Barkley had 100 yards rushing in basically what was his debut game(game #2) and almost 200 yards in second game as the feature back or the third game of his college career. So unless the training staff coached him up to that level in in about the 60 days he was on campus at that time, I'd say Saquon's abilities are actually Saquon's. I'm sure he credits the coaching staff because he's a good humble dude but no coaching staff member would say they made Saquon a freak athlete because they didn't. Otherwise I'm sure all coaching staffs everywhere are trying to create more Saquon Barkley's, however, it doesn't really work that way.
No, you kind of missed my point. From the time Bear retired until Nick Saban arrived, Alabama won one national championship and even went on probation. Nick Saban took over a program that was 6-7 the year before he arrived and took 3 years to win a national title there. It's not like Nick Saban suddenly started winning when he got great players. He had won a title at LSU before going to the NFL. Clearly, he had some players there, but it was nothing like what he has at Alabama routinely now. Players go to Alabama because they want to win championships and get to the NFL - and they know they'll be playing for a coach who knows all the little things it takes to be successful. I would argue that USC had as much or more talent throughout Pete Carroll's tenure there as Alabama has had under Saban. Granted, the players are already NFL caliber when Saban is recruiting them, but I think it's a lot tougher than you think to sustain that kind of on-field excellence and to further develop players who may already think they are finished products. There have been many talented teams that underachieve. Pete Carroll is an outstanding coach. But USC only won one BCS title during that reign of dominance - and that was later taken away. USC would always find a way to lose a game or two against lesser talent. Alabama will occasionally drop a game in the regular season to a lesser team, but they almost always tighten the screws and fix whatever problem they had. Also, there was a period of time when Alabama was underachieving on offense and Saban brought in Lane Kiffin and others to learn what a modern offense looks like. Saban is always looking to improve. Always looking for an edge. The players are a big part of Alabama's success, but make no mistake that Nick Saban is a maniacal competitor and plays a huge role in what Alabama is right now. They probably won't be at that level after he leaves for many years, if ever. Georgia has had insane levels of talent for years now, but it just won its first national title in 41 years. And this was against a young Alabama team. Don't kind yourself that a coach like Nick Saban doesn't see practically everything going on in practice and won't come over to fix it if there's a problem. That's how Joe Paterno was when he was younger.
Stretch.
The coaches job is the get everyone on the same page and to prepare a plan to beat the opposing team. They can do very little to change the talent they have because that comes from the individual. Make no mistake, no matter how great PJ Fleck can get an entire team and program rowing the boat in the right direction together he'll never get all that far at Minnesota because they don't have the individual talent. (period)
It's about individual talent, the coach is responsible for finding it and getting it to work together.
Paterno was great and really knew how to close and win games, maybe better than anyone ever but he had more talent than his competitors 85% of the time, sans a game or two per season. There were only a team or two that had like talent to Penn State in the Paterno prime years. It is the sole reason he was denied national titles when going undefeated, the media and other coaches didn't believe his team was playing a talented schedule. Paterno had quotes about stacking his position groups with players he didn't even use in order to keep them from going to a competitor like Pitt or Syracuse. No coach was every great without having great talent. Player talent trumps everything in every sport, coaches can somewhat manipulate it but putting it in better positions to succeed by preparation and or planning against the opponents weakness but you have to have the talent in order to succeed over the long haul of a season.
Look man, Saban is great, Paterno is great, they both have had the best of the best to work with. What kind of coaches are they at Akron? Coaches are responsible for wins and gameplans and roster management and organization, they have little to do with how talented their players are except that they identified them and recruited them, which is a skill unto itself. Certainly they can get them to both over and under achieve in certain instances or certain games but its all about individual talent. Andy Reid can't turn Dwyane Haskins into Patrick Mahomes, otherwise I'm sure he would. The reason he can't is because Patrick Mahomes is way more talented than Dwayne Haskins.
DJ Uk, the QB at Clemson, was the #1 QB recruit in the country, his passing rating was the worst in the NCAA this season. Is that because Dabo made him a poor passer? Because it seemed to work for Trevor Lawrence and Deshawn Watson. Must be Dabo's fault? Or is it the DJ just isn't an elite QB, possibly miss evaluated? Maybe not as talented as people thought. Who knows but the performance is on DJ not Dabo.
Last edited:
Excellent post......but useless. This is the internet....where no one admits to being wrong, no one changes their position, no one ever losses and no one ever wins an argument. They just run on and on like some sort of perpetual motion machine yet uses a lot of energy to keep it going.
That's kinda true and kinda funny but players make coaches, coaches don't make players. Coaches can however make players work better with their fellow players which will result in the team being better. It still doesn't change the fact that everything has to do with the talent of the individual player. Akron could execute every play to perfection against Alabama and Alabama could have half the team out with the flu and Akron would still lose the game, because Alabama has way better players. I'm not sure I understand why this is so hard to understand.
Vision and instinct are things that can't be taught. I'll give you that. But a program (not just a coaching staff) can help maximize a player's physical ability (S&C) and teach him the little things that might make the difference between being seen as a good and great back. Furthermore, the right program can get him recognized. Based on your criteria Saquon got worse as his career progressed - his highest ypc was as a freshman. If you think Saquon could have gone to Rutgers or some similar program and been the #2 overall pick I want some of what you're smoking.
Dude, Saquon was great when he came out of his mother's belly. He became greater because he has a killer work ethic. Dwight Gault is not responsible for Saquon's freakishness.
I agree with much of what you say, however I don't think those things are as important as you contend. I think they are all small ingredients of the recipe with talent being the main course.
Let me put it to you thus way.....
It's not James Franklin's fault that Lamont Wade didn't play like a 5 star top 10 recruit, it's James Franklin's fault he played him over other players that may have been just as good and let him be a cancer to the team and locker room. Which ultimately affects the team's play on the field.
Most people would agree that Kirk Ferentz is a really good coach, longest tenured in college football. No matter how good he coaches he will never win a national championship at Iowa. Never.
If Kirk took over Alabama today, he'd likely win a national title in less than 3 years. He'd be odds on favorite for 2022 for sure.
I doubt if Nick Saban took over Iowa today that he could even get them to win their conference in the next 3 years.
It's about player talent.
I've never stated that but if that's how you feel, I'm not sure I agree. Every person in every humans life has some sort of impact but its up to the individual to facilitate how they process and implement that information.
Brings up an interesting question on Nick Saban.
Why wasn't he as successful at MSU. Why did he fail in the NFL (yes, I realize it's a different animal). Why was he successful at LSU and now able to reestablish the dynasty of Alabama?
Kirk Ferentz is a good coach, but I feel like he's stopped growing. You pretty much know what you're getting with Iowa. There was a period when Ferentz was first there that Iowa almost became a "sexy" program. They got a lot of 4-star players and had top guys visiting. A few years later most of them were gone or didn't work out that well. The word around here was that those weren't Iowa-type players - they didn't work hard enough or buy in or whatever. Iowa City is a great place - it should not be hard to convince players to come there. But Ferentz used to say things like "we're not very sexy" or whatever. To me that was self-defeating. Sell what you are - not what you aren't. Ferentz's and offensive philosophies are pretty outdated - they are pretty easy for good teams to defend, but you won't see a lot of change even after it's shown that what they are doing clearly isn't working.
If Nick Saban came from Alabama to Iowa today he would still have his pick of top players, and would probably win a national championship within 4 years. Granted, he couldn't win one at MSU, but that was before he won all these titles. Ferentz might win one at Alabama if he was willing to hire someone other than his son to coach the offense and give them autonomy. He'd also have to adjust his approach with highly-talented players, I think, or they'd be portalling out within a year or two.
Look at Penn State wrestling - it sits in the middle of the most wrestling talent-rich state in the country, yet was about the equivalent of Iowa football. Cael Sanderson turned it into a powerhouse, and can recruit just about anyone he wants. Players matter, but coaching also matters.
Saban's last year at MSU was pretty good - 9-2 before he left, but he was competing against Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin, and Purdue under Joe Tiller at that time and lost to both Wisconsin and Purdue that year. Maybe if he would have stayed he'd have had some more success, but I doubt that he is able to recruit as well at MSU as he did at LSU and now Alabama.
IDK about Iowa City as a magnet city. My wife grew up an hour from there so I've spent a fair amount of time in that part of the country. Iowa City is like a smaller state college, but is much colder and with much worse weather. On top of that, it isn't within a couple hours drive of MANY population centers (Pitt, Phila, NY, Bal, DC, etc). Tell a kid from the NE/mid-atlantic to check out IA and he'll probably look at you like you have 2 heads. And who wants to fly to IA city in November to watch their kid play football?
To be clear, this isn't a dig on Iowa, a state with more pigs than people...I got married in IA. I was in CR last weekend. Lots of great people there when they aren't at a hawkeye game. But being one of the most rural states and 1000 miles away from every major population center, except Chicago, presents some natural challenges.
Maybe, maybe not. I think it would be hard to recruit the same type of talent that you can at a blue blood school. Let alone one as rural as Iowa. Yes Saban could possibly win at any place after 4 or 5 years but that is because that is how long it would take for him to revamp the roster with MORE TALENTED PLAYERS!
It always comes down to talented players. Yeah a really good coach can steal a win or two more that maybe the team wouldn't get otherwise but it always comes down to great players. If strength coaches could create Saquon Barkley's, I can guarantee they'd be in the gym 24/7 working on making one. If a coach can turn Robert Bolden into Patrick Mahomes, hire him today and never let him go.
Coaching is more about planning, organization, discipline. teaching, roster management, philosophy and tone. They set the tone for the entire program and overall team success. Those things go a long way in winning a game for the team but ultimately it comes down to players making plays and their talent and ability to apply it in a team game. If your team isn't as talented as the team across from you, your are typically gonna lose. Yeah you can sneak one out here and there because everyone is human and sometimes you make the plays or get the breaks but in the end its in the hands of JT Barrett not Urban Meyer. Ryan Day didn't make CJ Stroud and JSI come back against Utah, the players came back against Utah because they were better players.
Penn State and Michigan have beat Ohio State once in the past decade each because Ohio State is more talented than Penn State and Michigan. The numbers and percentages are significantly in favor teams that have more talented and experienced players. Ohio State has had 4 head coaches in the past 11 years. Yet they continue to kick everyone's ass, they have a 90% winning percentage against Penn State & Michigan over the last decade. 90%! That doesn't seem like much of a rivalry to me. It's because they have better players.
