SIAP: some new rules for 1st year D1 wrestlers
- Thread starter nerfstate
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Don’t tourneys count as dates? If so, doesn’t this mean first years in RS can have their way paid to a few tourneys first semester and stay in RS? That would seem to help.
Does any aid put somebody in schollie category? That seems big.
Does any aid put somebody in schollie category? That seems big.
I know I’ve heard Cael mention his desire to get all of his guys at least book money, so that was my question too.
It makes no sense to me.
If you aren’t a starter, we need to protect you and ease you into things. But if you are a starter, we have none of same concerns.
Combine that with lack of redshirt option at the most academically rigorous schools where it probably would be most needed.
And when does the semester end? I hope it doesn’t apply to holiday tournaments when school is otherwise out of session.
If you aren’t a starter, we need to protect you and ease you into things. But if you are a starter, we have none of same concerns.
Combine that with lack of redshirt option at the most academically rigorous schools where it probably would be most needed.
And when does the semester end? I hope it doesn’t apply to holiday tournaments when school is otherwise out of session.
These rules are mostly atrocious. Law of Unintended Consequences ...
1. OK but why not allow this regardless of academic year?
2. Will greatly impact Opens. Maybe fewer Opens? Earlier exits (more MFFs) due to fewer co-pilots for the drive home?
For what purpose? Can't be to protect academics, with the season starting 2/3 thru the semester.
1+2 together will incentivize resting starters during fall duals + tourneys, and instead trotting out lots of true freshmen. Cohlton Schultz says quack!
3. OK ... but that's not already a rule?
4. Expect to see a lot more guys getting zero. That 9.9 only goes so far, even with NIL. Also, walk-ons/book-money guys who earn a scholarship might not get it for an extra year or more.
This could cause headaches with the APR (academic conpliance) ratings -- only athletes on scholarship count. Fewer guys receiving money --> smaller denominator ---> academic misses hurt more.
Even if an NIL star wishes to decline a scholarship, the coach might want to give him book money just to boost APR. That strategy changes with a min 20%.
1. OK but why not allow this regardless of academic year?
2. Will greatly impact Opens. Maybe fewer Opens? Earlier exits (more MFFs) due to fewer co-pilots for the drive home?
For what purpose? Can't be to protect academics, with the season starting 2/3 thru the semester.
1+2 together will incentivize resting starters during fall duals + tourneys, and instead trotting out lots of true freshmen. Cohlton Schultz says quack!
3. OK ... but that's not already a rule?
4. Expect to see a lot more guys getting zero. That 9.9 only goes so far, even with NIL. Also, walk-ons/book-money guys who earn a scholarship might not get it for an extra year or more.
This could cause headaches with the APR (academic conpliance) ratings -- only athletes on scholarship count. Fewer guys receiving money --> smaller denominator ---> academic misses hurt more.
Even if an NIL star wishes to decline a scholarship, the coach might want to give him book money just to boost APR. That strategy changes with a min 20%.
I could see kids who aren't deserving of 20% at a great program sign onto lesser programs and lower divisions
If you are referring to Ivy League, they don't give scholarships and instead provide need-bases aid. Therefore, it seems the bylaw wouldn't apply.
I understand it's for first year students (doesn't matter if starter). It seems aimed at ensuring a true freshman wrestler has the best chance to get acclimated to the rigors of college life as a student athlete. That would explain why it doesn't extend beyond first year students.
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These new bylaws have me thinking the majority of coaches really don't want to make wrestling a second semester only sport. Wrestling may have felt recent pressure to do exactly this. I seem to remember some talk about it. If that's the case, the new bylaws could represent compromise response that address some of the reasons given to justify making wrestling a second semester only sport.
Here's the actual rules changes and a couple have exceptions, including the new 20% rule.
Sounds great until realizing that nearly all of them start in summer session, and have been practicing for around a month during the semester before any competitions.
And besides, it's just flat weird to say freshmen CAN compete in 5 attached tourneys but NOT in any unattached tourneys during their first semester. Hey Levi, you can't go to Mat Town unless you bring the coaches.
Then couldn't that count toward having a semester making concerns about wrestling unattached moot (as long as the have a 2.0 GPA)?
It seems clear from the rule posted it's about best assuring academic progress.
It's about taking that judgment away from the coaches.
Cael has said he prefers not shirting marginal academic freshmen -- they tend to develop better habits with less free time on their hands.
Are you saying the limits for competing in the first year and especially the first semester for wrestlers not using a season of eligibility don’t apply to wrestlers not on scholarship?
I don’t understand it that way.
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If you start as a true freshman (if you are using one of your four seasons of eligibility in your first year and beginning in your first semester), then there are no restrictions on how often you can compete in your first year..
If you are not a starter as a true freshman (if you are not using one of your four seasons of eligibility in your first season), then there are restrictions on how often you can compete in your first year, and especially your first semester.
The latter was said to be for purposes of acclimation.
So we’re not worried about acclimation if you are a starter.
What am I missing?
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Certainly doesn’t help with filling holes with a capable, but RSing, frosh in big 2nd semester duals. Granted that’s a minor thing, but we’ve seen occasions when fans would have liked to see a RS thrown in there for excitement, and well, I’m a fan.
Maybe I misunderstood this:
I was only saying the 20% minimum share of a scholarship (which being a bump up might only apply to a starter) doesn't apply to Ivy League.
I didn't understand what being a starter (or not) had to do with anything. It only has to do with being a first year student. I think some Ivy League would be freshman simply don’t enroll (gray shirt).
Goal post moved? I don't get your new point.
Nothing affects practices and weigh ins where habits are developed.
I assume a marginal academic freshman is still above 2.0, so they're still eligible. Cael can have those freshmen wrestle attached in more than five open dates, or if extra matches continue to be allowed that provides another venue.
That would seem to "not shirt" them.
I don't understand. It's about first year students demonstrating sufficient academic progress in their first semester. 2.0 is a minimum bar. Coaches still have sufficient discretion.
Wrestling attached vs not doesn't mean they are a starter. That part, like the 20% minimum share of a scholarship, seems aimed at reducing financial burdens of some first semester wrestlers. Else they might have to work a part time job in addition to school and training.
I don’t think we typically disagree on things and I don’t know how to explain my read on it differently, so I won’t try.
As an aside, I always find it interesting when they make rules specific to certain sports. Runners, as one example, also compete unattached when not wanting to use eligibility. But the new rule only applies to wrestling.
I believe the NCAA is already moving to more sport specific rules based on information specific to those sports. I would not be surprised if data analysts have statistically shown NCAA D1 wrestlers as a cohort don't graduate at a higher rate when compared to other D1 sports. I believe, eventually, the entire rule set will be reorganized to sport specific sections. Some forward thinkers have already said "What works for one sport doesn't work for another."
Bylaws don't provide accompanying rationale, but I have to believe those directly involved, coaches and athletic directors, are aware of the rationale and justification, as well as provided input that the NCAA fully considered (especially considering the entire NCAA as an entity may be in jeopardy).
"Starters" are determined by coaches irrespective of NCAA rules and bylaws. I think you associated wrestling attached with a starter (a true freshman destined to have his redshirt burned including participation in some duals) so competition for the year, including first semester, would be unlimited. That's not true, the competition limitation deals with wrestling unattached first semester of first year and having a minimum 2.0 GPA. So this applies to would be starters at Opens during their first semester.
Penn State has had several starters whose red shirts weren't pulled until the second semester and who also wrestled unattached until then. They can now wrestle 5 attached dates first semester (saving them costs) and unlimited unattached dates second semester. This seem plenty and doesn't cause the RS to be pulled. Or they can wrestle one more attached and have their RS pulled. This applies equally to all first year students their first semester.
More Open dates are likely to move to second semester. The NCAA has pushed for wrestling to move to be entirely second semester. A coach's process to peak for NCAAs is likely to forgo starter participation in a good many of these second semester opens, which would reduce starter competition dates.
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Yes, that would be the case for the first academic year. Good thing NLIs were always voluntary. Regardless, NILs very well may have rendered NLIs obsolete (not to mention the transfer portal).
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Looks like this was news in mid may:
www.ncaa.org
Excerpt: "The Committee on Academics created the group at the request of the National Wrestling Coaches Association. Wrestling coaches, administrators, faculty and student-athletes served on the group aimed at not only supporting the academic success of wrestling student-athletes but also at preserving the sport of wrestling in Division I.
But some without 1/10th the information seem to know better.
Division I Committee on Academics studies Academic Performance Program
The Division I Committee on Academics continued its discussion of the evolution of the Academic Progress Rate during its meeting May 12.
www.ncaa.org
Excerpt: "The Committee on Academics created the group at the request of the National Wrestling Coaches Association. Wrestling coaches, administrators, faculty and student-athletes served on the group aimed at not only supporting the academic success of wrestling student-athletes but also at preserving the sport of wrestling in Division I.
But some without 1/10th the information seem to know better.
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Levi scenario - Yes. As long as he maintains a 2.0 GPA.
Connor scenario - There is no reason, except for coach's decision and budget limits, that Connor couldn't wrestle five dates attached in his first semester and preserve his redshirt. Then second semester Connor could go to all the opens he wants unattached. Again all he has to do is maintain a 2.0 GPA. If he enters college early Summer, that may create another factor allowing him to wrestle unattached in the fall.
Is your Connor scenario that competition dates are restricted more than Levi's a real issue? By that I mean, how many dates have Penn State true freshman wrestled unattached in the fall semester when their first semester is the fall semester?
The situation is fluid. Give it time for more opens to move their dates to the second semester. If many do, than a non-starter true freshman could hypothetically end up with more matches than Levi (assuming he starts all year and goes to fewer opens). I don't see many starters going to many 2nd semester opens under Cael's regime.
Yes, it may impact Lock Haven more. Again it was about reducing burden (financial and academic) on true freshmen wrestlers. This came about based on coach recommendations and was formulated by a council that included wrestlers, coaches, and administrators. Data showed APR for wrestlers was lacking. I think the new bylaw does a good job addressing the concerns identified. It didn't try to maximize unattached competitions first semester, because that would be contrary to addressing the problem statement, as I understand it.
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My issue is that instead of reducing financial burdens of some first semester wrestlers by giving them at least 20% it’s going to do the opposite. More kids will get 0 $ where before they would get books or a small percent. Now that seems to be gone and that sucks. My freshman year quite a few kids got books which isn’t a ton of $ but helped them out tremendously. Now more kids are going to have to work part time as well as everything else and something is going to suffer because of it.
No. I just thought that if the reason was to ease first year wrestlers into things, there’d just be a simple strict limit on (all) first year wrestler / first semester competition dates.
Agree with all, El_Jefe. I immediately questioned the effect on the fall open tournaments. My question is with #4. If a wrestler is given money for books or room & board only, is that definitely considered being on scholarship? Or is there a possible definition that scholarship means tuition assistance? In that case, you could still help some guys without violating the 20% rule.
The program gets X (a calculated amount that 9.9 fully funded athletic scholarships with a variable that is dependent upon in-state status or out-of-state status) amount of dollars. If a member of the team receives a buck from that kitty they are receiving student-athlete financial assistance, ie scholarship money.
Ok. I agree there is no fixed limit. Still, all first year wrestlers have the opportunity and same rule set applying to their first semester and freshman year to preserve their redshirt.
Hopefully, paying for five attached dates will make up for the book costs, and be available to all wrestlers.
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