So... better to win NIT or go out in the 32 at NCAA?

[N&B4PSU]

Let's say we had made it into the tourney and were seeded 9th. We win game 1, get a #1 seed and go home.

Does that do more for the program than winning the NIT?

A downside of winning all these games is that Tony Carr received far more visibilitiy and it might hasten his departure. But imo, this worked out better for us. Again, JMO... curious hw others view it.

Of course, we could have beaten, say, Xavier (which I think we would have) and then it's 'who knows'...

 

[BlueBand]

Let's say we had made it into the tourney and were seeded 9th. We win game 1, get a #1 seed and go home.

Does that do more for the program than winning the NIT?

A downside of winning all these games is that Tony Carr received far more visibilitiy and it might hasten his departure. But imo, this worked out better for us. Again, JMO... curious hw others view it.

Of course, we could have beaten, say, Xavier (which I think we would have) and then it's 'who knows'...

Getting into the NCAA is the goal. That said, if you know you’re one and done in the NCAA, you can get more out of winning the NIT. We picked up 5 more games, and 5 more wins against quality teams. The players all got more experience. I felt like many of the players really came into their own during the NIT run, and realized how good they truly could be. And it really looked like they were having fun doing it. As a team, and as a program, the only thing that would have been better for the program, both in how it went down and how it sets up next year, would have been a similar run in the NCAA.

Also, think about this... if we only play 1 or 2 games in the NCAA, Shep almost assuredly doesn’t get the school record for career 3 point shots made, and doesn’t break the B1G single season record for 3 point shots made. He deserved that, and to go out a winner.

For where the program is now (not where we want it to be), this NIT run was way more valuable to them than a win in the NCAA, or a first round loss.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Congrats to the Lions! This was a big win.

IMHO, winning the NIT is equivalent to getting to the Sweet 16 (and then losing). Sure, you wanna get in the NCAA. But if you offered the typical college basketball coach the option of getting into the "Big Dance" and going out with 0-1 wins, versus winning the NIT Championship, I bet more coaches would pick the latter.

 

[Nit16]

Let's say we had made it into the tourney and were seeded 9th. We win game 1, get a #1 seed and go home.

Does that do more for the program than winning the NIT?

A downside of winning all these games is that Tony Carr received far more visibilitiy and it might hasten his departure. But imo, this worked out better for us. Again, JMO... curious hw others view it.

Of course, we could have beaten, say, Xavier (which I think we would have) and then it's 'who knows'...

Of course making the NCAAs is much more relevant. The NIT is a joke.

 

[Nit16]

Getting into the NCAA is the goal. That said, if you know you’re one and done in the NCAA, you can get more out of winning the NIT. We picked up 5 more games, and 5 more wins against quality teams. The players all got more experience. I felt like many of the players really came into their own during the NIT run, and realized how good they truly could be. And it really looked like they were having fun doing it. As a team, and as a program, the only thing that would have been better for the program, both in how it went down and how it sets up next year, would have been a similar run in the NCAA.

Also, think about this... if we only play 1 or 2 games in the NCAA, Shep almost assuredly doesn’t get the school record for career 3 point shots made, and doesn’t break the B1G single season record for 3 point shots made. He deserved that, and to go out a winner.

For where the program is now (not where we want it to be), this NIT run was way more valuable to them than a win in the NCAA, or a first round loss.

LOL

 

[Nit16]

Congrats to the Lions! This was a big win.

IMHO, winning the NIT is equivalent to getting to the Sweet 16 (and then losing). Sure, you wanna get in the NCAA. But if you offered the typical college basketball coach the option of getting into the "Big Dance" and going out with 0-1 wins, versus winning the NIT Championship, I bet more coaches would pick the latter.

Same as Sweet16 hahaha. Pathetic!

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

Getting into the NCAA is the goal. That said, if you know you’re one and done in the NCAA, you can get more out of winning the NIT. We picked up 5 more games, and 5 more wins against quality teams. The players all got more experience. I felt like many of the players really came into their own during the NIT run, and realized how good they truly could be. And it really looked like they were having fun doing it. As a team, and as a program, the only thing that would have been better for the program, both in how it went down and how it sets up next year, would have been a similar run in the NCAA.

Also, think about this... if we only play 1 or 2 games in the NCAA, Shep almost assuredly doesn’t get the school record for career 3 point shots made, and doesn’t break the B1G single season record for 3 point shots made. He deserved that, and to go out a winner.

For where the program is now (not where we want it to be), this NIT run was way more valuable to them than a win in the NCAA, or a first round loss.

The NIT run is good and all that I agree with you and it's better than getting bounced in the first round of the dance. But if you were to win one game in the tournament the exposure there is awesome. It's not about records or what guys deserve Shep probably would like to say I played in the NCAA tournament. With all that being said this run means exactly nothing if next year they don't make the tournament. That's just my opinion it's all about next year

 

[LafayetteBear]

Same as Sweet16 hahaha. Pathetic!

Your post definitely calls to mind the old adage that opinions are like assholes.

 

[LoyalandTrueLion]

Your post definitely calls to mind the old adage that opinions are like assholes.

Dude i think it's great we won. I was upset I couldn't go this year. I was there in 09 and some other members of the family were also there so it was nice a nite.

But I still remember everything that happened when we beat North Carolina. Where I was ...what I was eating ... and tears after.

And the heartbreak watching Pete and Danny loose to Arkansas.

I was only 5 so I dnt remember 91.

 

[rudedude]

NIT is not like the NCAAS in that we had to win two away games to advance to the NIT Final Four. NCAA games are all neutral court games so in some ways, being a #4 seed was a tougher road. I think we could have made some noise in the NCAA with how this team gelled without Watkins.

 

[N&B4PSU]

Can't escape the fact that virtually all of the NIT winners since 2010 have gone on to be well seeded in the following march madness event. [since 2010 and omitting 2016, none have been seeded lower than 11th and the median runs around 6... unc had a 2]

Do I think losing in the first weekend is better than winning the NIT? Nope. We received so many accolades and the way we skewered 2 pretty good teams in the finals said a lot about the program. Had we made it in and drawn a decent bracket, no doubt we could have wrecked a dream or 2 or 3. imo.

But we need to be in the big dance next year and we need to take 2. Do that, and this program will grow.

 

[Alphabets]

I'd rather get knocked out in the first round and just be in that pool of 64 than win the nit. That being said, this run was fun. Just not sure how many people outside of PSU fans saw it or care.

 

[psuro]

I swear there is not half as much angst with the football team not making it to CFP as there seems to be with basketball team not making it to NCAA.

 

[Nittanygrad93]

Winning the NIT only matters, if you have a lot of depth coming back. It does far less for recruiting than it does for the experience the current players get in learning how to win consecutive games and a tournament. If a senior laden team wins the NIT, it will do virtually nothing for the future of the program. Nobody says, "hey maybe I should go to XXXX, they just won the NIT!" However, if the nucleus returns and continues to improve that is when a program can turn the corner.

The key to Penn State's continued growth may have less to do with the exposure the school may or may not have received from the NIT, but who comes back and how they build from this years improvements. It also helps that Chambers is not likely to use any immediate achievements as a stepping stone to a bigger program. Mid-major schools can use the NIT to big dance progression model, and then fade into obscurity because their coach jumps ship as soon as he receives the recognition.

 

[BobPSU92]

I still say it is better to go to the big dance regardless of the outcome. That sells better to recruits and fans than an NIT championship. I say this having gone to last night's game with my wife (Section 211, just $25 a ticket, great seats). With the game in The City, the turnout from Penn Staters was strong. It was a great performance on a great stage. It was great to see the team hoist a championship trophy. My wife and I loved it. However, afterwards we both thought, "It's still just the NIT." Hopefully they can build off this run and get to the big dance next year.

If Carr returns next year (I think he will), Watkins is healthy come fall, and Dread pans out, I think the team will be strong. The potential is certainly there. They have great athletes who look to be coming together as a team (playing team basketball). I was especially encouraged by their play last night given that Shep had a quiet night. That bodes well for next season.

 

[Ranger Dan]

I think for the resume of a coach, it's better to make the NCAA than win the NIT. I think that winning the NIT, however, gives us a ton more exposure than losing the first game of the NCAA. From what I read last week, the ratings for Penn State's NIT games have been great, and these are in key time slots. Some of this is because Penn State has a strong brand, but there are also high school basketball players across the country who were able to see Penn State, Tone Carr, Shep Garner, and Lamar Stevens play lights out in the NIT. This will help Penn State's basketball cred and get more visits from top 150 players.

 

[canuckhal]

If you want a comparison of NCAA and NIT. Was the game televised nationally? A crowd of less than 12,000 broke the attendance record for the final. The games are played during the week. I went to ESPN to see the score and it said there were no games. The default is NCAA and the final four popped up. Even with the win, the story is not front and center on ESPN. I'm not sure how much publicity winning the NIT gets, but it is something Chambers can use in recruiting, and maybe it got some coverage on the East Coast considering the finals were in New York. Certainly better to have won than to have lost. Congrats to the team. Hopefully it will be a spring board rather than a one off.

 

[mrmk5110]

Its not even close, NCAAT in a heartbeat. PSU winning the NIT was not even on espn.com this morning.

Players want to play in the NCAAT, not the NIT. PSU making the tournament next season would be a much bigger thing for the program than winning the NIT this year.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

For this one year, maybe winning the NIT is better than losing in the NCAA first round. But that logic only works once, for one year. Period. The last thing you want is a reputation as a program that goes to the NIT every single year.

It's great as a stepping-stone, but next year it's got to be the real thing.

 

[psuro]

The kids, I am sure, wanted to be in the NCAAT. But, the people that sit in a room somewhere that make these decisions decided not to invite them. So, they got invited somewhere else.....and they ended up winning.

So, the kids on the squad did everything they could do with the opportunity they had in front of them.

 

[gogolion]

Actually, of the last 10 NIT Champs, only 4 made the NCAA tourney the subsequent year...... 6 did not.

NIT Champs (2017 - 2008).... Outcome subsequent year:


2017, TCU - following year, 6 seed (one and done)
2016 GW - No
2015 Stanford - No
2014 Minnesota - No
2013 Baylor - 6 seed (Sweet 16)
2012 Stanford - No
2011 Whichita St - 5 seed (one and done)
2010 Dayton - No
2009 PSU - No (finished dead last in B10)
2008 OSU - 8 seed (one and done)

Last night during the game they put up a similar graphic that included the recent NIT finalists and the results were better. Each year, either the NIT champ or runner-up made the NCAA with a good seeding the following year.

 

[razpsu]

The question is. The team rolled in the nit. Won some away games and then big wins in nyc. This team comes back with Carr and everyone else except Shep perhaps. Do they make it to the elite 8 or final 4. Because if they win one or two in the NCAA some say that is equivalent.

Much more pressure in the NCAA no different than playing in major bowl
Compared to lesser one. Each round pressure mounts even further which is greater than nit advancement.

The big thing is that is this nit the stepping stone for future ncaas? Or is it the pinnacle and we have to wait 5-10 more years.

 

[12375CAT]

Lions to '19 Dance

 

[78SweetRevenge]

Winning the NIT is the equivalent of winning the New Orleans Bowl or the Frisco Bowl. It has no meaning. It's nice for the kids but it doesn't mean anything. It absolutely is NOT comparable to a Sweet 16 run--come on

 

[Bob78]

For this one year, maybe winning the NIT is better than losing in the NCAA first round. But that logic only works once, for one year. Period. The last thing you want is a reputation as a program that goes to the NIT every single year.

It's great as a stepping-stone, but next year it's got to be the real thing.

I'm with you for the most part. I'd say that winning - or at least a very deep run - in the NIT is only good now and then (as opposed to just once), and only as long as there are consistent NCAAT appearances in between the less-frequent NIT appearances. So, I agree that next season needs to result in an NCAA berth.

Sweet 16s should be an every season goal. And as Ro said, the team played the hand they were dealt, and made the most of it. That's all I would ever ask of them, while acknowledging that 'making the most of it' often means different things in different seasons.

I'm really happy for this team and the NIT title. 26 wins is a tremendous accomplishment for a PSU bball team. This season has become a lot more meaningful, imo, than we thought it would be a couple weeks ago when missing out on the Dance: I'm excited for next season. I care very much how this team and program performs. I expect us to win.

We are in a good place right now, one that can be used for building something we have not seen much of with PSU hoops. Let's get to the next step, and then the next step, and so on. (Or, let's climb to the next rung, then the next rung, etc.)

 

[78SweetRevenge]

The question is. The team rolled in the nit. Won some away games and then big wins in nyc. This team comes back with Carr and everyone else except Shep perhaps. Do they make it to the elite 8 or final 4. Because if they win one or two in the NCAA some say that is equivalent.

Much more pressure in the NCAA no different than playing in major bowl
Compared to lesser one. Each round pressure mounts even further which is greater than nit advancement.

The big thing is that is this nit the stepping stone for future ncaas? Or is it the pinnacle and we have to wait 5-10 more years.

Are you sure Carr comes back? Garner is a big loss

 

[AWS1022]

From a recruiting and brand stand point, making the NCAA is always better. From a development stand point, this NIT run was much better than playing one or two games in the NCAA. Look what this tournament did for this team playing without Watkins, look what it did for the bench players, look what it did for Harrar. It also gave them experience winning tough road games and two games on a big stage. And from a fan stand point, we were still watching Penn State basketball as of March 29th. Winning the NIT was a pretty good substitute for not making the NCAA tournament.

 

[razpsu]

Are you sure Carr comes back? Garner is a big loss

Said perhaps. Money talks even if it isn’t millions

 

[AWS1022]

Of course making the NCAAs is much more relevant. The NIT is a joke.

We played better teams in the NIT than many of the NCAA tournament teams did.

 

[Bob78]

Winning the NIT is the equivalent of winning the New Orleans Bowl or the Frisco Bowl. It has no meaning. It's nice for the kids but it doesn't mean anything. It absolutely is NOT comparable to a Sweet 16 run--come on

Not sure I'd make the equivalency that low.... maybe more like winning the Citrus or Outback after missing out on a NY6 bowl? If not that lofty, then winning a bowl game vs. another Top 25 P5 team, vs. a G5 bowl. You still have to win some tough games against quality teams to win the NIT. It's not a walk-over.

 

[Obliviax]

The goal, I think, is to make it to the final four. Winning the NCAA is, of course, the ultimate, but we need to establish the program before we think that big.

So winning the NIT and having several games on TV, is huge for us. My guess is that we had several more eyeballs that saw PSU in the NIT than AZ, VA, VT, UT, NC St, tOSU or Cincy. That is huge for the brand and will get more kids to consider PSU moving forward.

But it also gives our kids experience and confidence. So this bodes well for next season.

Success breeds success. Is winning the NIT ideal? No. But it is a huge step on the road to a sustained winning BB program.

 

[78SweetRevenge]

Not sure I'd make the equivalency that low.... maybe more like winning the Citrus or Outback after missing out on a NY6 bowl? If not that lofty, then winning a bowl game vs. another Top 25 P5 team, vs. a G5 bowl. You still have to win some tough games against quality teams to win the NIT. It's not a walk-over.

Not even close to that level....those are top teams in their conference in the Citrus and Outback--typically ranked teams.
The NIT isn't anything like that. I mean, the Citrus was 14 vs 17 last year.

 

[78SweetRevenge]

The goal, I think, is to make it to the final four. Winning the NCAA is, of course, the ultimate, but we need to establish the program before we think that big.

So winning the NIT and having several games on TV, is huge for us. My guess is that we had several more eyeballs that saw PSU in the NIT than AZ, VA, VT, UT, NC St, tOSU or Cincy. That is huge for the brand and will get more kids to consider PSU moving forward.

But it also gives our kids experience and confidence. So this bodes well for next season.

Success breeds success. Is winning the NIT ideal? No. But it is a huge step on the road to a sustained winning BB program.

I haven't seen the ratings but do you really believe people other than Penn State fans, Utah fans and those that bet on the game watch the NIT final. Maybe a few but not many.

 

[joeparules]

I still remember talking to a neighbor (Syracuse grad) back in 2009 about whether it was better to win the NIT or lose first round of the Big Dance. He obviously thought it was the latter, but (at the time) seeing PSU win the NIT and the subsequent commitment of Taran Buie made me feel it was the earlier. I guess it really depends on whether you graduated from a traditional basketball school or not. For a program like PSU it was probably more important to have the extra games of the NIT (they really came together) provided Carr stays and they build off the success and make the NCAAT next season. The problem in the past when PSU hoops showed a pulse and had a "special" season it was typically a senior-laden team and it was followed with a disappointing season. This was obviously a "special" season but only had one senior starter. If Carr returns a Sweet 16 appearance next year is actually obtainable.

NOTE: Searching the web to make sure I had Taran Buie's name correct I came across this article from December 2016 where he was arrested on drug charges. Another talent being thrown away ... http://www.troyrecord.com/article/TR/20161219/NEWS/161219801

 

[BobPSU92]

We played better teams in the NIT than many of the NCAA tournament teams did.

What about relative competition? I'd rate Penn State at best a borderline tournament team. How many other teams that Penn State played in the NIT were borderline? How good was Penn State competition? Take teams that lost in the first round of the tournament. How would they have fared against Penn State's competition in the NIT? It's obviously impossible to say but still something to consider.

 

[Obliviax]

I haven't seen the ratings but do you really believe people other than Penn State fans, Utah fans and those that bet on the game watch the NIT final. Maybe a few but not many.

I do.

You've got to factor in that the teams I mentioned lost in the first or second round when there were 32 and 16 games being played. That is just 1 or 2 games. In addition, Most didn't get much TV coverage or time (with that may games being played at the same time). So few saw them.

And I was really talking about college Hoop fanatics. Most importantly, age 14 to 17 boys that will get Div 1a 'ships. The NIT games were played on non-NCAA game days. So if you were a big college hoops fan looking to get your fix, NIT was the only game in town.

So, when you factor all of that together, it is very possible that PSU got more key eyeballs watching our four NIT games that VA or tOSU got. It is all about brand awareness and raising the brand.

 

[SUPERTODD]

Assuming his NIT play does not send Carr up draft boards, and it should not, I think we will see the benefits of the extra five games next year. I actually thought at one point last night that Reaves looked a bit like former UNLV Stacy Augman. I have never come close to thinking anyone who played for PSU basketball was similar to an all-time great. Reaves’ offense is improving. He has always been an elite defender.

A college basketball team rarely has three elite scorers and I believe Carr, Stevens and Reaves could all be that next year. If Chambers can figure out his rotations a little better next year, so that the team is fresh come March, this team could make some noise in the tournament.

 

[AWS1022]

What about relative competition? I'd rate Penn State at best a borderline tournament team. How many other teams that Penn State played in the NIT were borderline? How good was Penn State competition? Take teams that lost in the first round of the tournament. How would they have fared against Penn State's competition in the NIT? It's obviously impossible to say but still something to consider.

Many of the teams that made the tournament were borderline tournament teams as well...and unlike the NIT, some of the NCAA teams didn’t deserve to be in the tournament but got in with an auto bid. If they eliminated auto bids, how many of the NIT teams would have been in the NCAA tournament? The teams PSU played were as good or better than a very high percentage of the NCAA tournament teams. Obviously we didn’t have to face a Kansas or a Villanova, but we also didn’t face a Radford or a Marshall and we had to play two games on the other team’s home court.

 

[LemonEars]

The team really played well in the NIT, especially last night. I think the team has progressed a lot since the start of the season. If we would have gotten an NCAA bid and played like we did last night, I think we could have been the Loyola.

 

[GregInPitt]

Let's say we had made it into the tourney and were seeded 9th. We win game 1, get a #1 seed and go home.

Does that do more for the program than winning the NIT?

A downside of winning all these games is that Tony Carr received far more visibilitiy and it might hasten his departure. But imo, this worked out better for us. Again, JMO... curious hw others view it.

Of course, we could have beaten, say, Xavier (which I think we would have) and then it's 'who knows'...

If the goal is to have a real, big time BB program, just getting to the NCAA and getting crushed in the first game by superior talent is a very small step and does not do much for the future of the program other than to say "hey, we did make the NCAA last year". Maybe this team could have won a game. Seth Greenburg said this team could. But I believe he was just looking to complement the team for the NIT wins. I do not believe this team would have won an NCAA game, as a 12th or 13th seed. Especially since the team played a very sloppy and uninspired game against Temple, their 1st post season game. That same performance against UK, WVU or Florida would have resulted in a blowout loss. And that would have been 2 weeks ago.

So I do believe that the 4 extra games in the NIT, all wins and confidence builders as well as team chemistry builders, will benefit the team more than a 1 and done NCAA appearance. Some of the benefits:
1) Continued growth for the nucleus that was the heart of the team this season and will be returning: Carr, Stevens, and Reeves. Yes, Carr may now choose to leave, but how will we ever know if the extra exposure was the difference maker.
2) Harrar's play. Lots of possibilities as to why he was not playing earler in the season, but in my opinion it does not reflect positively on Chambers that he was sitting given the solid play he showed including good decision making and the ability to play without racking up unnecessary fouls. My opinion is that Chambers gave Moore and Pierce the benefit of the doubt due to their being upper classmen. Nonetheless Harrar's minutes in the 5 games will be a big plus for the team going into 2018-19.
3) Playing well with Watkins out of the lineup will pay dividends as well. Why the light went on, who knows. But when (not if) Watkins gets in foul trouble next year these successful 5 games have helped prepare the team to win without him.
4) Exposure. Yes, it's just the NIT. But the 4 extra TV games are always helpful for recruiting. The two nice wins at MSG are big as well. PSU's/Chambers' normal recruiting area is not that far from NYC and lots of his potential recruits pay attention to what happens in NYC. Some may even have attended one of the games.
5) Fan Support. All the PSU fans that did attend the 5 extra games, especially the games at MSG, will be more likely to attend PSU BB games going forward due to the fun they had attending these NIT games. I believe there will be carry over, especially since most of this team is coming back with or without Carr. Watkins has announced he will be back. Just some more wins to build on.
6) Recruiting. More games, more exposure. 25 wins. Wins in NYC. Wins on away courts. Just lots of small but relevant positives to use to get/recruit that scoring power forward, dynamic small forward, or whatever big time talent Chambers can get that the team needs to get to the next level. That next level is a team that gets to the NCAA as a 6-9 seed and wins at least one game in the NCAA.

Lots of work to do this off season, including developing Wheeler's scoring, Harrar's scoring, Watkins ability to defend without fouling,......... i.e. replacing Garner's scoring and continued roster development (recruiting). Wheeler, who will have the ball in his hands lots, needs to score more than Harrar, who will help the team win if he just does what he did the past 2 weeks - defend, rebound, and play smart team BB.

Just my opinion.