So is Zain on his own tier now at 149?

[NittanyChris]

After his complete annihilation of T-Shirt it seems he has separated himself from the field. Not to say Sorenson could never beat him, only that there is a gap between Zain and Sorenson at this point.

If one was ranking the field at 149, I think it would go Zain and then some distance to Sorenson and then a bigger gap to the rest of the field.

 

[Niklex316]

I'm an OSU and I would have to agree. Feel bad for Hunter, would love to see him grab 1 natty on his way out but.... Zain is on another planet right now at 149. Zain is approaching how IMar is perceived at 157, and Dinger is at 165, and Dean is at 184.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

I don't know. Zain is very very good and I have been confident he would defeat Tsirtsis this year but Tsirtsis was not the same wrestler today that I've seen wrestle probably 15 times over the past couple of years. Whether its his injury or his mental state, he wasn't there today.

 

[Brian LB-U]

I don't know. Zain is very very good and I have been confident he would defeat Tsirtsis this year but Tsirtsis was not the same wrestler today that I've seen wrestle probably 15 times over the past couple of years. Whether its his injury or his mental state, he wasn't there today.

Tsirtsis looks huge, perhaps he's outgrown the weight? The same thing might be happening with Ashnault at 141 (got wrecked today by Thorn 8-1 or something)

 

[SRATH]

T-Shirt looked like the first TD and ride just took the fire out of him. Clearly not in form yet. Clearly Zain is far more offensive than he was two years ago. Despite the extra weight, he looks quicker. Was always a grinder, but it is clear he has stepped up his game.

 

[Grass]

I think it is safe to say all of those battles with Pico have really benefited Zain. He is so relentless. The scary part is that he looks small out there compared to some of the other guys at 149. He is only going to get better.

 

[RoarLions1]

I get the excitement, but fandom is too often what-have-you-done-for-me-lately. Let me say;
- Zain should be #1 in every ranking service in the country, he's earned that, and,
- It sure appears the only wrestler close to Zain is Sorensen

...but it was less than one month ago, Zain won a match 2-1, and his opponent (Clagon) actually came the closest to earning a takedown.

He will be favored in every bout, the rest of the way, imo...but not sure putting him on a plateau, all alone, with no one even close, is fair.

 

[NittanyChris]

Meh. After today's performance, I don't think its some kind of outrageous leap to claim that Zain has separated himself from the pack. Is he invincible? Of course not, no one is. Has he created some distance between himself and the rest of 149? ABSOLUTELY.

 

[RandyL]

My impression is that during the BC era (before Clagon) last year and this, Zain was very methodical about setting up shots; he really didnt shoot often, but had a pretty high rate of success when he took a shot. He was not a takedown maven (probably not right word, but I dont get to use that word much) like Nolf and others. Clagon match seem to make him realize he needed to step up his aggressiveness from his feet; he has been on fire since.

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

Meh. After today's performance, I don't think its some kind of outrageous leap to claim that Zain has separated himself from the pack. Is he invincible? Of course not, no one is. Has he created some distance between himself and the rest of 149? ABSOLUTELY.

Meh right back. Retherford is terrific but, objectively, today's win against TShirt was not some watershed event. TShirt was not even close to his usual self out there. It's unfortunate, but clearly factual.

 

[seeyajohn]

My impression is that during the BC era (before Clagon) last year and this, Zain was very methodical about setting up shots; he really didnt shoot often, but had a pretty high rate of success when he took a shot. He was not a takedown maven (probably not right word, but I dont get to use that word much) like Nolf and others. Clagon match seem to make him realize he needed to step up his aggressiveness from his feet; he has been on fire since.

Something certainly changed. At the Scuffle I sat in amazement watching Zain take people down and then cut them to take them down again ala Nolf. That's the first time I recalled him doing that rather than choosing to punish from the top.

 

[NittanyChris]

Meh right back. Retherford is terrific but, objectively, today's win against TShirt was not some watershed event. TShirt was not even close to his usual self out there. It's unfortunate, but clearly factual.

Looks like we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Right now it's Zain at the top of 149, then a gap to Sorenson, then a gap to the rest of the field. No doubt in my mind.

 

[lionlover]

...but it was less than one month ago, Zain won a match 2-1, and his opponent (Clagon) actually came the closest to earning a takedown. He will be favored in every bout, the rest of the way, imo...but not sure putting him on a plateau, all alone, with no one even close, is fair.

 

[RoarLions1]

So what do you all think the "gap between Zain and Sorenson at this point" is? Since "Zain is on another planet right now at 149", I would guess from these quotes, it's huge; Major?

How about #3 Mayes? We might get Missouri in the NWCA Dual Championship Series.
Or #6 Pantaleo, at the Michigan Dual?
Must admit, the #12 Stieber Match, if it happens, may not be a good measure. Many posters have weighed in on this (other threads), and have been questioning (good forum discussions) whether this bout will happen.

 

[burnsie1983]

I'd say Zain beats Sorenson by 3-5 points, probably closer to 3.
Mayes really hasn't wrestled too many top guys at 149, his best win is probably Geo Martinez, I believe he's good, but give me Zain by 3-5 again.
Pantaleo doesn't worry me too much...Zain may just major him.
Stieber is so hard to predict. He lost to Pantaleo in his only appearance of the year. Frankly, I'd be rooting for Stieber to make it through the match unhurt.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Sorenson doesn't give up many points. Tough, tough kid. Like him a lot, actually. But Zain will beat him. It'll probably be close but Zain looks slightly better in all positions. Unless Stieber shows a lot more stamina and technique in upcoming matches, Zain is going to pound him into the ground. Stieber just doesn't look fully recovered yet. He's obviously very tough when healthy but those days may unfortunately be behind him.

 

[KidNittany]

After his complete annihilation of T-Shirt it seems he has separated himself from the field. Not to say Sorenson could never beat him, only that there is a gap between Zain and Sorenson at this point.

If one was ranking the field at 149, I think it would go Zain and then some distance to Sorenson and then a bigger gap to the rest of the field.

Tsirtsis has had a weird year, getting beat by Cimato. Obviously has had to deal with a lot. Come NCAAs I think you see the Tsirtsis folks are used to.

As far as a different tier, until he beats Sorenson handily, then no. Consistency defines separation, so one match will not automatically push him upwards of T-Shirt and BS just yet. Not too long ago Clagon had a pretty close match with him.

 

[NittanyChris]

For me, separation doesn't necessarily mean a huge margin of victory, it can mean confidence that one wrestler will beat another. This is how I apply it to Zain and Sorenson. No matter what you believe RoarLions, there is DEFINITELY a gap between Zain and Sorenson, whether HR posters believe it or not. I don't think that means Zain will necessarily major him, because Sorenson is a defensive guy, but it does mean I'm very confident that Zain wins the match.

 

[dunkej01]

Tsirtsis has had a weird year, getting beat by Cimato. Obviously has had to deal with a lot. Come NCAAs I think you see the Tsirtsis folks are used to.

As far as a different tier, until he beats Sorenson handily, then no. Consistency defines separation, so one match will not automatically push him upwards of T-Shirt and BS just yet. Not too long ago Clagon had a pretty close match with him.

Who is this Clagon guy you speak of?

 

[minnhawkeye]

Looks like we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Right now it's Zain at the top of 149, then a gap to Sorenson, then a gap to the rest of the field. No doubt in my mind.

Zain is for sure at the top of 149 and rightfully so. But how can anyone say that he has widen the gap from Sorenson when they have never even wrestled yet? Is all I disagree with. When they meet first time would say a toss up with a slight edge to Zain.

 

[Annieat285]

Zain is for sure at the top of 149 and rightfully so. But how can anyone say that he has widen the gap from Sorenson when they have never even wrestled yet? Is all I disagree with. When they meet first time would say a toss up with a slight edge to Zain.

They did wrestle once. It was freestyle, but it has to count for something.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Ok, annie sorry I didn't know about that free style match. Like I did say though that I would say Zain is a favorite. He is outstanding. Have mercuy on this old Hawk fan

 

[El-Jefe]

SIAP, but go back and re-watch the very first couple minutes of the NW video: http://nusports.com/watch/?Archive=3467

Zain and Nolf spend the pre-match warmups clowning around, imitating Nico. They take turns with Jason doing Nico's go-behind with his head stuffed awkwardly under the opponent, and Zain doing Nico's full split shot defense. And they're pointing at the bench and laughing in between.

It's really hilarious.

 

[Grass]

Now that was funny. Looks like something me and my friends would have done in college.

 

[lobo lion]

View embedded media

They did wrestle once. It was freestyle, but it has to count for something.

Damn, that was an impressive display. When was that match?

 

[NoVa Lion]

Damn, that was an impressive display. When was that match?

May 2014, Junior World Team Trials. This was the challenge tournament finals and then Zain lost to Pico in the finals.

 

[Azchief32]

Looks like we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Right now it's Zain at the top of 149, then a gap to Sorenson, then a gap to the rest of the field. No doubt in my mind.

Meh...different wrestlers provide different match up problems. As a PSU fan, you should know this. How can there be a gap between Zain and Sorensen if they haven't wrestled folk style? For example, many on this board, including myself thought DT was going to take it to Dake before they ever wrestled their first match because of DT's arsenal of weapons. To this day, I can't understand why he hasn't at least taken a couple. Will Sorensen present that problem for Zain? Sure. Could Zain end up putting the beating on Brandon? Sure. The only thing we have our common opponents and style which brings us back to DT/Dake...that and we don't know because they have never wrestled in college.

 

[El-Jefe]

Meh...different wrestlers provide different match up problems. As a PSU fan, you should know this. How can there be a gap between Zain and Sorensen if they haven't wrestled folk style? For example, many on this board, including myself thought DT was going to take it to Dake before they ever wrestled their first match because of DT's arsenal of weapons. To this day, I can't understand why he hasn't at least taken a couple. Will Sorensen present that problem for Zain? Sure. Could Zain end up putting the beating on Brandon? Sure. Their only thing we have our common opponents and style which brings us back to DT/Dake...that and we don't know because they have never wrestled in college.

I get what you're saying, but by that logic there is no gap between Martinez and Nolf despite Martinez being an undefeated defending national championship and consensus top 2-3 pfp.

The free vs. folk argument is sometimes used too casually (and, yes, I just used it on Snyder). Its validity depends upon individual matches. Zain's pushout point clearly does not translate. The rest of their action in neutral definitely does -- Zain's muscled him around and took him down with a snap and go behind.

Zain's bow and arrow ... I get that freestyle defense is different, and the multiple turns wouldn't count in folk, but Sorensen went over with barely any resistance. He might be in real trouble if Zain broke him down, which Zain is very good at. What we don't know is if Sorensen can free himself before then, though very few have been able to in 2 yrs.

 

[lionlover]

Meh...different wrestlers provide different match up problems. As a PSU fan, you should know this. How can there be a gap between Zain and Sorensen if they haven't wrestled folk style? For example, many on this board, including myself thought DT was going to take it to Dake before they ever wrestled their first match because of DT's arsenal of weapons. To this day, I can't understand why he hasn't at least taken a couple. Will Sorensen present that problem for Zain? Sure. Could Zain end up putting the beating on Brandon? Sure. The only thing we have our common opponents and style which brings us back to DT/Dake...that and we don't know because they have never wrestled in college.

Your point is valid. That said, in keeping with your DT/KD matchups, DT never beat KD in freestyle, while Zain destroyed Sorenson in freestyle. I think we all are looking forward to this folkstyle match!

 

[Azchief32]

Collica beat Sorensen in freestyle too and it was the reasoning behind many picking Collica to beat him at Grapple on the Gridiron...Sorensen dominated him. Not saying the same would be true for Zain but a freestyle match in a summer tourney is different than a folk style match at B1G or the NCAAs. That said, If Sorensen doesn't have a specific game plan and/or fails to execute it, Zain will win.

 

[dunkej01]

Collica beat Sorensen in freestyle too and it was the reasoning behind many picking Collica to beat him at Grapple on the Gridiron...Sorensen dominated him. Not saying the same would be true for Zain but a freestyle match in a summer tourney is different than a folk style match at B1G or the NCAAs. That said, If Sorensen doesn't have a specific game plan and/or fails to execute it, Zain will win.

We also have the benefit of hindsight and can see that Collica is not the same collica this season overall not just the GotG match. Is that because collica regressed this season or Sorenson broke loose.

since everyone is using it and i havent before...I will now.

meh, I think its in between on Soreson and collica. While its clear to even the most casual of observer that Zain has shot through the roof. If the singlets were reversed I think you would agree.

meh, maybe Im wrong.

 

[dicemen99]

To weigh in here, although I think that freestyle match would be relevant if it happened this past spring or summer, it's almost two years in the past. When I see Sorenson this past year, I see a wrestler who is much different physically - and much improved. You can also say the same thing about Zain, so I'm not sure how much you can take from that match.

I would favor Zain over Sorenson at this point, as I think most people would, but I think that it will be a close match. I can certainly see Sorenson beating Zain in a couple of scenarios - most likely an early TD. Sorenson will be a difficult opponent for Zain on his feet, he can also ride well enough to make earning a RT point difficult.

I think Zain wins the match, but if they wrestle 10 times, well...

 

[Azchief32]

We also have the benefit of hindsight and can see that Collica is not the same collica this season overall not just the GotG match. Is that because collica regressed this season or Sorenson broke loose.

Meh...The OP based his theory on the fact that Zain putting a whooping on TShirt. So:

--Zain takes it to TShirt, it's just proof that Zain is separating himself from the pack despite TShirt wrestling with physical, team distractions and emotional ailments

--Sorensen takes it to Collica, Collica just not the same guy as he was a few months before when he beat Sorensen. And oh yea, Zain whooped Sorensen's ass in FS in 2014. Got it...

 

[RoarLions1]

The banter is fun...but only one way to settle this...see ya in Iowa City, Az!!

 

[RandyL]

Didnt Tsirtsis beat ZR in a freestyle match some time ago; I remember watching it and thinking JT was huge compared to ZR, who still looks smaller than most opponents.

Having now watched this match JT was clearly not in good enough condition for this match and was out of it very early.

 

[manatree]

The banter is fun...but only one way to settle this...see ya in Iowa City, Az!!

One only hopes that all are healthy come tourney time. When having these types of arguments, it almost makes me wish that once they reached the semi-finals, that they switched to a round robin format.

 

[tikk10]

Didnt Tsirtsis beat ZR in a freestyle match some time ago; I remember watching it and thinking JT was huge compared to ZR, who still looks smaller than most opponents.

Having now watched this match JT was clearly not in good enough condition for this match and was out of it very early.

On rewatching, I thought JT looked about how he always looks until after the first takedown. But after that TD his focus switched from winning to getting through seven minutes. The last three TDs he barely defends. Speculating about his injury only gets you so far because only JT knows, but it's clear enough that he wasn't prepared to wrestle that match, given what video was available on Zain this year and JT's response to that level of physicality. Whether that's his or the coaches' fault is also a matter of speculation but I don't think he should've been out there.

 

[RoarLions1]

One only hopes that all are healthy come tourney time. When having these types of arguments, it almost makes me wish that once they reached the semi-finals, that they switched to a round robin format.

Completely agree with the "healthy" comment...for all teams, hate to see any kids dreams dashed by injury.

As far as round-robins, we know the transitive property doesn't hold in wrestling, and we'd have; A beating B, B beating C, and C beating A...and be right back where we started .