Thanks to McIntosh

[minnhawkeye]

Wrestled a super match gonna give the Hawks at least a tie.
Also sad to see McCutcheon had the injury default.
We got what we deserved only ONE total point out of 157 and 165.

Also again refs are not doing there job.
For example Evans and Storley go 8 mins no shots no takedowns and no stalling called that is what is gonna kill this sport.
Years ago both would have dq for heavens sake.

Just wanted to thank your guys and know next year will be yours again.

 

[Wrestler2u]

And thanks to Smack we will finish 5th instead of 6th. A couple good performances here but not near enough. Hugh tournament for Cutch

 

[a_mshaffer]

what bothers me about the stalling call is consistency as well as the situation calls. The former we all have comments on but the latter has made a lot of differences in matches. Seems like a ref will call stalling on the person winning in the 3rd period with 20 seconds to go but not in the entire first and second periods with the exact same behavior. Stalling in the first period, not taking any shots, backing up, is the same as in the 3rd period. Ref needs to mentally not pay attention to the score and and the crowd.

 

[farmer79]

Any thoughts on the second official calling stalling he is in a position to see the whole match an could consider stalling without watching for all the position calls

 

[Bushwood CC]

Originally posted by a_mshaffer:
what bothers me about the stalling call is consistency as well as the situation calls. The former we all have comments on but the latter has made a lot of differences in matches. Seems like a ref will call stalling on the person winning in the 3rd period with 20 seconds to go but not in the entire first and second periods with the exact same behavior. Stalling in the first period, not taking any shots, backing up, is the same as in the 3rd period. Ref needs to mentally not pay attention to the score and and the crowd.

JimmyG got jobbed twice in one tournament by atrociously inconsistent and ridiculous officiating which cost him the match. First call cost him a shot at a BT title (the official called stalling only moments after he had escaped late in the 3rd period to take a 1-point lead over #2 Taylor - just a ridiculous call in that JG had just escaped from the down position and the wrestlers had only been in the neutral position for an extremely short amount of time. No other critical match (this was a SEMI-FINAL MATCH!!) was officiated in this manner or "taken away" from a wrestler in this manner.). Just a complete joke of a call in that situation.

Then in his last match, JG is working towards the winning TD inside of 30 seconds to go....had the leg and was working his way toward wrapping his arm around opponent's second leg and waist....and the official calls stalemate when JG clearly had the superior position, was clearly improving his position and would have had the winning TD (and absolutely nothing even remotely dangerous) -- just a ridiculous and horribly inconsistent call again costs JG a 2nd match in the same tournament!

 

[Tom McAndrew]

don't see how that would work ...


lots or problems with that proposal, IMHO. these include:

- 1st call is a warning, and 2nd call is a point. If you had both refs calling stalling, they may not know what each other is doing, and there could be 2 warnings with no points awarded
- it's not seen too often, but 5 stalling calls (including a warning) is a disqualification. if the 2 refs are not aware when each other call stalling, then you could get to that point and yet not disqualify the wrestler
- perhaps you could resolve the above 2 issues by only having the second official call stalling. but I don't see how that would work. If there is a shoelace issue, or a shoe comes off, by rule that is a stalling call. Kind of hard to see how all calls and points awarded are done by the main ref, yet the second ref is going to deal with just stalling?
- currently, the table looks at the main ref, as he's the only one that currently can award points. So, you'd have to train all table personnel to expand their view. I just don't see that happening

I could go on with issues, but I think that addresses most of the main ones.

Tom

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

Originally posted by Bushwood CC:

Originally posted by a_mshaffer:
what bothers me about the stalling call is consistency as well as the situation calls. The former we all have comments on but the latter has made a lot of differences in matches. Seems like a ref will call stalling on the person winning in the 3rd period with 20 seconds to go but not in the entire first and second periods with the exact same behavior. Stalling in the first period, not taking any shots, backing up, is the same as in the 3rd period. Ref needs to mentally not pay attention to the score and and the crowd.

JimmyG got jobbed twice in one tournament by atrociously inconsistent and ridiculous officiating which cost him the match. First call cost him a shot at a BT title (the official called stalling only moments after he had escaped late in the 3rd period to take a 1-point lead over #2 Taylor - just a ridiculous call in that JG had just escaped from the down position and the wrestlers had only been in the neutral position for an extremely short amount of time. No other critical match (this was a SEMI-FINAL MATCH!!) was officiated in this manner or "taken away" from a wrestler in this manner.). Just a complete joke of a call in that situation.

Then in his last match, JG is working towards the winning TD inside of 30 seconds to go....had the leg and was working his way toward wrapping his arm around opponent's second leg and waist....and the official calls stalemate when JG clearly had the superior position, was clearly improving his position and would have had the winning TD (and absolutely nothing even remotely dangerous) -- just a ridiculous and horribly inconsistent call again costs JG a 2nd match in the same tournament!

I don't have a beef with the stalling call against Gullibon in the semi-final. He had already been warned and was backing up when he got dinged again. It was the correct call IMO. A stalling call in that situation should be the norm, rather than the exception. Therein is where the problem lies - it's not called consistently.

That said, I completely agree about the premature stalemate call in the match against Richards. JG was slowly improving his position and, like you say, had just secured the opponent's second leg. Really a putrid stalemate call.

 

[farmer79]

Tom was thinking just having second official call stalling taking it away from 1st I guess I am just so tied of watching a sport I love be hurt by letting some matches just come to a crawl an it hurts our sport an why it isn't called its makes no sense why it's not called in first period is crazy

 

[Bushwood CC]

Originally posted by BruceK-PSU83:

Originally posted by Bushwood CC:

Originally posted by a_mshaffer:
what bothers me about the stalling call is consistency as well as the situation calls. The former we all have comments on but the latter has made a lot of differences in matches. Seems like a ref will call stalling on the person winning in the 3rd period with 20 seconds to go but not in the entire first and second periods with the exact same behavior. Stalling in the first period, not taking any shots, backing up, is the same as in the 3rd period. Ref needs to mentally not pay attention to the score and and the crowd.

JimmyG got jobbed twice in one tournament by atrociously inconsistent and ridiculous officiating which cost him the match. First call cost him a shot at a BT title (the official called stalling only moments after he had escaped late in the 3rd period to take a 1-point lead over #2 Taylor - just a ridiculous call in that JG had just escaped from the down position and the wrestlers had only been in the neutral position for an extremely short amount of time. No other critical match (this was a SEMI-FINAL MATCH!!) was officiated in this manner or "taken away" from a wrestler in this manner.). Just a complete joke of a call in that situation.

Then in his last match, JG is working towards the winning TD inside of 30 seconds to go....had the leg and was working his way toward wrapping his arm around opponent's second leg and waist....and the official calls stalemate when JG clearly had the superior position, was clearly improving his position and would have had the winning TD (and absolutely nothing even remotely dangerous) -- just a ridiculous and horribly inconsistent call again costs JG a 2nd match in the same tournament!

I don't have a beef with the stalling call against Gullibon in the semi-final. He had already been warned and was backing up when he got dinged again. It was the correct call IMO. A stalling call in that situation should be the norm, rather than the exception. Therein is where the problem lies - it's not called consistently.

That said, I completely agree about the premature stalemate call in the match against Richards. JG was slowly improving his position and, like you say, had just secured the opponent's second leg. Really a putrid stalemate call.

Completely disagree, Guilbon had only just escaped - there was no pattern of stalling, he was pushed OOB shortly after escaping to the neutral position. You cannot point to a similar call in the tournament, let alone during any of the other semi-final or final matches. Nonsense to say that you are going to take matches away from some wrestlers willy-nilly (again, Guilbon and Taylor had only recently returned to the neutral position when Guilbon escaped - you can't just hammer a wrestler for stalling out-of-nowhere when other wrestlers are rewarded for stalling their entire GD match! It was a ridiculous call given the situation - absurd given the way every other semi-final and final match was called, every match for that matter.

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

Originally posted by Bushwood CC:

Originally posted by BruceK-PSU83:

Originally posted by Bushwood CC:

Originally posted by a_mshaffer:
what bothers me about the stalling call is consistency as well as the situation calls. The former we all have comments on but the latter has made a lot of differences in matches. Seems like a ref will call stalling on the person winning in the 3rd period with 20 seconds to go but not in the entire first and second periods with the exact same behavior. Stalling in the first period, not taking any shots, backing up, is the same as in the 3rd period. Ref needs to mentally not pay attention to the score and and the crowd.

JimmyG got jobbed twice in one tournament by atrociously inconsistent and ridiculous officiating which cost him the match. First call cost him a shot at a BT title (the official called stalling only moments after he had escaped late in the 3rd period to take a 1-point lead over #2 Taylor - just a ridiculous call in that JG had just escaped from the down position and the wrestlers had only been in the neutral position for an extremely short amount of time. No other critical match (this was a SEMI-FINAL MATCH!!) was officiated in this manner or "taken away" from a wrestler in this manner.). Just a complete joke of a call in that situation.

Then in his last match, JG is working towards the winning TD inside of 30 seconds to go....had the leg and was working his way toward wrapping his arm around opponent's second leg and waist....and the official calls stalemate when JG clearly had the superior position, was clearly improving his position and would have had the winning TD (and absolutely nothing even remotely dangerous) -- just a ridiculous and horribly inconsistent call again costs JG a 2nd match in the same tournament!

I don't have a beef with the stalling call against Gullibon in the semi-final. He had already been warned and was backing up when he got dinged again. It was the correct call IMO. A stalling call in that situation should be the norm, rather than the exception. Therein is where the problem lies - it's not called consistently.

That said, I completely agree about the premature stalemate call in the match against Richards. JG was slowly improving his position and, like you say, had just secured the opponent's second leg. Really a putrid stalemate call.

Completely disagree, Guilbon had only just escaped - there was no pattern of stalling, he was pushed OOB shortly after escaping to the neutral position. You cannot point to a similar call in the tournament, let alone during any of the other semi-final or final matches. Nonsense to say that you are going to take matches away from some wrestlers willy-nilly (again, Guilbon and Taylor had only recently returned to the neutral position when Guilbon escaped - you can't just hammer a wrestler for stalling out-of-nowhere when other wrestlers are rewarded for stalling their entire GD match! It was a ridiculous call given the situation - absurd given the way every other semi-final and final match was called, every match for that matter.

Hey, I agree it's not called consistently, and I agree that is the real issue. However, I can't argue the call. JG was trying to nurse a slim lead at the end of the match, and he was backing up. The ref had the stones to make the right call; unfortunately, not many do in that situation.

 

[seeyajohn]

"I don't have a beef with the stalling call against Gullibon in the semi-final. He had already been warned and was backing up when he got dinged again. It was the correct call IMO. A stalling call in that situation should be the norm, rather than the exception. Therein is where the problem lies - it's not called consistently."
__________________________________________________________________________

I get your point, but the "warning" came one minute into the match when Gulibon escaped Taylor's grasp of his leg on the edge. That's not quite the same as if he had been warned about real stalling earlier in the same period or even in the second period.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Guys the majority of wrestling are pissed off about the way the sport is heading.
Really don't need new rules just call the ones that are there.
Unless I guess maybe could take it out of refs hand by a new rule if after 1st period no score is automatic stall warning on both wrestlers.
No excuse for weights up to the higher weights ending in over time and end up 2-1 with no take down even.
For me the best match of excitement was Kokesh and Brown also the IM and Ness match now there was some wrestling. Hope Brown can get him at Nationals. Always have liked that stud.

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

Originally posted by seeyajohn:

"I don't have a beef with the stalling call against Gullibon in the semi-final. He had already been warned and was backing up when he got dinged again. It was the correct call IMO. A stalling call in that situation should be the norm, rather than the exception. Therein is where the problem lies - it's not called consistently."
__________________________________________________________________________

I get your point, but the "warning" came one minute into the match when Gulibon escaped Taylor's grasp of his leg on the edge. That's not quite the same as if he had been warned about real stalling earlier in the same period or even in the second period.

Good observation, but in the end it doesn't matter. He had a stall warning (no matter how he got it) and thus had to be aware of the potential ramifications of even the perception of backing up or refusing to engage.

If every ref called stalling in that situation where JG got dinged, college wrestling would be much, much better.

 

[El-Jefe]

Originally posted by minnhawkeye:

Guys the majority of wrestling are pissed off about the way the sport is heading.
Really don't need new rules just call the ones that are there.
Unless I guess maybe could take it out of refs hand by a new rule if after 1st period no score is automatic stall warning on both wrestlers.
No excuse for weights up to the higher weights ending in over time and end up 2-1 with no take down even.
For me the best match of excitement was Kokesh and Brown also the IM and Ness match now there was some wrestling. Hope Brown can get him at Nationals. Always have liked that stud.

This. I'll just add that stalling non-calls are an epidemic in HS as well.

At PA states, one finalist (the 126 AA runner-up) stalled so badly in the finals that he should've been disqualified in the first. Seriously. No exaggeration, he made Chris Perry look like Nico with a caffeine injection.

This actually happened in that match:
- Runner-up backs to edge -- not blatant, was actually in contact with the opponent the entire time, but all steps backward.
- Champ lets go, runs back to the center. Not to the stripe, clearly waiting to engage. Action clearly still live, clock still ticking.
- Ref directs runner-up back to the center.
- Runner-up pauses, then slowly walks toward the center -- but not directly to the center. He takes a wide arc, circling kinda sorta toward the center, but not really.
- After about 5 sec, champ gets impatient and meets runner-up half-way to the edge.

Correction: that happened multiple times in the same match. He also spent the entire match in reverse, and the eventual champ pushed the action for all 6 minutes, from all 3 positions -- yes, even from bottom. Yet the offender somehow did not get dinged for stalling once in the entire match.

The 195 AA champ wrestled a great first 2 minutes, then stalled the entire last 2 periods so badly you could've called him Peaked In The First Period Rob Lowe. In fairness, the runner-up showed no urgency until the last 30 sec.

285 AAA was a great match until the last 30 sec, when the champ blatantly backed up to protect his lead, finally got dinged with 5 sec left. Too late!

And, while not as blatant as the 126 AA runner-up, don't get me started on the 132 AA champ. He's exceptionally talented and skilled, but has devoted himself to perfecting the art of "busy, not productive." Let's just say he may be overqualified for Cornell.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

hey El-Jefe ...


did you DVR the Class AA finals? If so, could you check who the ref was?

I'm going on memory, but I think it was Chris _____ (I'll leave that blank for now) that reffed that match. If so, I know him, and he's an excellent ref. He reffed the National Collegiate Open 2 weeks ago, and is doing Flo Nationals at the beginning of April.

I remember the match more than I remember who was reffing it. Your description of what took place is pretty much what I recall, at least when the runner-up was on his feet. That said, I didn't think a stalling warning was warranted in that match. The time where the ref was suggesting "center," and the runner-up took his time and never did get there wasn't really a stalling warning situation. The "work to the center" encouragement from the ref is a guidance, but not a "go there or else" situation. Again, I'm going from memory, and after a weekend of PIAAs and B1Gs, matches are somewhat jumbled in my head.

They identified the refs working each PIAA match, so if you have it DVRed, get back to me with the name of the ref. (I didn't DVR the Championships, or I'd check it myself.)

Thanks,

Tom

 

[El-Jefe]

Re: hey El-Jefe ...

I didn't DVR it, no idea who the ref was. And he might normally be great.

You know, if Hogue had merely strolled back toward the center, this might be a gray area in the rules -- it probably isn't a mandatory stalling warning. It might be ref "suggestion" ...

But this should be like when The Boss "suggests" I take out the trash.

It was really egregious when Hogue circled around the perimeter instead of going directly to the center, 3 steps to the right for every step forward. Or that he could be timed with a sundial. Let alone both.

That's clearly not attempting to engage the opponent, nor is it improving one's position. (OK, it would be improving position if I did it with Ed Ruth on the other side.) When the opponent has to chase you down from over 10 feet away because you won't approach, you might be stalling.

 

[taylorkinpsu]

Originally posted by BruceK-PSU83:

Originally posted by Bushwood CC:

Originally posted by a_mshaffer:
what bothers me about the stalling call is consistency as well as the situation calls. The former we all have comments on but the latter has made a lot of differences in matches. Seems like a ref will call stalling on the person winning in the 3rd period with 20 seconds to go but not in the entire first and second periods with the exact same behavior. Stalling in the first period, not taking any shots, backing up, is the same as in the 3rd period. Ref needs to mentally not pay attention to the score and and the crowd.

JimmyG got jobbed twice in one tournament by atrociously inconsistent and ridiculous officiating which cost him the match. First call cost him a shot at a BT title (the official called stalling only moments after he had escaped late in the 3rd period to take a 1-point lead over #2 Taylor - just a ridiculous call in that JG had just escaped from the down position and the wrestlers had only been in the neutral position for an extremely short amount of time. No other critical match (this was a SEMI-FINAL MATCH!!) was officiated in this manner or "taken away" from a wrestler in this manner.). Just a complete joke of a call in that situation.

Then in his last match, JG is working towards the winning TD inside of 30 seconds to go....had the leg and was working his way toward wrapping his arm around opponent's second leg and waist....and the official calls stalemate when JG clearly had the superior position, was clearly improving his position and would have had the winning TD (and absolutely nothing even remotely dangerous) -- just a ridiculous and horribly inconsistent call again costs JG a 2nd match in the same tournament!

I don't have a beef with the stalling call against Gullibon in the semi-final. He had already been warned and was backing up when he got dinged again. It was the correct call IMO. A stalling call in that situation should be the norm, rather than the exception. Therein is where the problem lies - it's not called consistently.

That said, I completely agree about the premature stalemate call in the match against Richards. JG was slowly improving his position and, like you say, had just secured the opponent's second leg. Really a putrid stalemate call.

It was stalling but they don't call that 90% of the time.

 

[jack66]

Originally posted by a_mshaffer:
what bothers me about the stalling call is consistency as well as the situation calls. The former we all have comments on but the latter has made a lot of differences in matches. Seems like a ref will call stalling on the person winning in the 3rd period with 20 seconds to go but not in the entire first and second periods with the exact same behavior. Stalling in the first period, not taking any shots, backing up, is the same as in the 3rd period. Ref needs to mentally not pay attention to the score and and the crowd.

This bothers me too. If a wrestler is the obvious aggressor in the 1st two periods, he should earn the right to nurse a lead the last 30 seconds.

 

[El-Jefe]

Jack, I hope you're not seriously suggesting what it sounds like: that wrestling hard for 6:30 earns a wrestler the right to stall for the last 0:30.

 

[Azchief32]

Tomasello from Ohio State got one TD and completely shutdown. Gilman had close to around ten shots. Tough to beat a guy when he goes completely defensive. NT said after the match that the key to his win was staying aggressive (two stall calls) and staying on his shots (one shot). This is killing wrestling boys.

 

[a_mshaffer]

of course not. but stalling in the first 30 seconds is the same as stalling in the last 30 and stalling should be called regardless of score.

 

[Bushwood CC]

Originally posted by taylorkinpsu:

Originally posted by BruceK-PSU83:

Originally posted by Bushwood CC:

Originally posted by a_mshaffer:
what bothers me about the stalling call is consistency as well as the situation calls. The former we all have comments on but the latter has made a lot of differences in matches. Seems like a ref will call stalling on the person winning in the 3rd period with 20 seconds to go but not in the entire first and second periods with the exact same behavior. Stalling in the first period, not taking any shots, backing up, is the same as in the 3rd period. Ref needs to mentally not pay attention to the score and and the crowd.

JimmyG got jobbed twice in one tournament by atrociously inconsistent and ridiculous officiating which cost him the match. First call cost him a shot at a BT title (the official called stalling only moments after he had escaped late in the 3rd period to take a 1-point lead over #2 Taylor - just a ridiculous call in that JG had just escaped from the down position and the wrestlers had only been in the neutral position for an extremely short amount of time. No other critical match (this was a SEMI-FINAL MATCH!!) was officiated in this manner or "taken away" from a wrestler in this manner.). Just a complete joke of a call in that situation.

Then in his last match, JG is working towards the winning TD inside of 30 seconds to go....had the leg and was working his way toward wrapping his arm around opponent's second leg and waist....and the official calls stalemate when JG clearly had the superior position, was clearly improving his position and would have had the winning TD (and absolutely nothing even remotely dangerous) -- just a ridiculous and horribly inconsistent call again costs JG a 2nd match in the same tournament!

I don't have a beef with the stalling call against Gullibon in the semi-final. He had already been warned and was backing up when he got dinged again. It was the correct call IMO. A stalling call in that situation should be the norm, rather than the exception. Therein is where the problem lies - it's not called consistently.

That said, I completely agree about the premature stalemate call in the match against Richards. JG was slowly improving his position and, like you say, had just secured the opponent's second leg. Really a putrid stalemate call.

It was stalling but they don't call that 90% of the time.

90% of the time? It wasn't called this way at all in any other match at the tournament - please cite me another example, especially during a critical semi-final or final match featuring highly ranked wrestlers, where a wrestler escaped late in the match to take a 1-point lead and was hit IMMEDIATELY with a stall call in the neutral position to tie the match??? Forget about stalling the entire match or even most of the 3rd period with no stall calls while attempting to cling to a tenuous lead (which happened repeatedly in the semi-final and finals matches), we're talking about Guilbon getting nailed with stalling to tie the match only moments after he escaped to take the lead and the wrestlers had just returned to the neutral position!!! Given the "situation", it was absurdly inconsistent, and GROSSLY UNFAIR, with and relative to the way any other match was called in the tournament, let alone any of the semis or finals!!! It was a complete BS and grossly unfair call given the situation, circumstances and how every other match was called, especially the semis and finals. In other words, the absolute absurd "uniqueness" of the call, and it's impact on the outcome of the match, clearly identifies how absurdly corrupt and grossly unfair the call was -- if it wasn't "unique", please cite all the other stall calls that nullified 1-point leads and sent the match into OT in the last half minute of the 3rd period (again, let alone attempting to cite an example in the semis or finals where stalling and hanging onto a narrow lead was more rampant as a strategy by the winning wrestler then aggressiveness!!)