Way OT: The Spymasters - CIA in the Crosshairs

[PSUTENN1]

Just caught this two hour documentary on cable, I thought it was excellent.

View of various CIA Directors over the last 20 years.

They all have one thing in common, to a man they believe we can't kill our way out of our current war.

I would enjoy reading your view point and opinions of the film.

No politics intended....sorry!

 

[Ranger Dan]

Thanks for posting. I'll see if I can find it on on demand... BTW, you may want to avoid inviting potential political debates here and take them to the test board instead. I don't think you were stirring up trouble, but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets ugly.

 

[Pittmustang]

I thought the documentary was fairly unbiased and comprehensive. I thought it was interesting the parts involving advanced interrogation techniques and the lack of a consensus on how much they were used. Especially Hernandez who destroyed tapes...it is an ugly ugly business all around no matter what side of the aisle you are on....

 

[jdog1124]

Interesting....where do you find it? What channel?

 

[Pittmustang]

Showtime I believe they have some excellent documentaries.

 

[PSUfan98]

Thanks for posting. I'll see if I can find it on on demand... BTW, you may want to avoid inviting potential political debates here and take them to the test board instead. I don't think you were stirring up trouble, but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets ugly.

He seems to be posting a very liberal position so based on what we've seen in the moderating of this board, this thread should survive for quite awhile or at least until it appears that liberals are getting their positions soundly defeated by logic and facts. That is just the way it goes around here despite moderator suggestions to the contrary.

 

[PSUinMICH]

Have it on my DVR but haven't yet watched it.

 

[PSUTENN1]

He seems to be posting a very liberal position so based on what we've seen in the moderating of this board, this thread should survive for quite awhile or at least until it appears that liberals are getting their positions soundly defeated by logic and facts. That is just the way it goes around here despite moderator suggestions to the contrary.

You couldn't be more wrong. I'm not a leftie, test board regulars can confirm that....I just wanted to read other posters opinion of the film.

 

[demlion]

You couldn't be more wrong. I'm not a leftie, test board regulars can confirm that....I just wanted to read other posters opinion of the film.

Is there anything 98 is not afraid of? Gotta be painful going through your life lurching from one locus of fear to the next, in a personal state of DefCon 3 at all times.

That said, it seems the only way these ninnies can deal with it is to foist it on others. It is a glorious time for them when some event occurs about which they can tell us "I told you so."

Then, when they are asked what their solution is, it is always the same solution that has failed a whole bunch of times since VietNam--ground troops. Carpet bombing. Torture. Trillions of dollars, thousands/millions of destroyed lives both here and in the target countries, huge costs nobody wants to pay. Then they begin to sell national debt/deficit Fear.

I am not living in fear of anything except guys who think like he does being in charge.

 

[PSUfan98]

You couldn't be more wrong. I'm not a leftie, test board regulars can confirm that....I just wanted to read other posters opinion of the film.

I didn't say that you are a leftie and I can't say that I know your political leanings as a poster but the position implied by your thread particularly in "to a man they believe we can't kill our way out of our current war" is consistent with many liberal positions.

I simply don't see a difference between your thread which is now in day 2 from one I posted the other day about the feds confirming that they can't verify Syrian refuges and that they have discovered fake Syrian passports believed to come from ISIS with Russian covers. My thread was removed and I opined less in it than you have in this thread. Both were meant as non-political OT threads about national security issues. My thread was removed by the very liberal moderators because the facts in it undermined their position on Syrian refuges. Apparently, your thread with a greater addition of opinion is permitted because it doesn't undermine liberal positions.

Additionally, you have a global warming, ahem I mean climate change thread going for multiple days on this board as well despite it outlining a clearly liberal position and common liberal theme particularly on the heals of the conference that liberal pawn Kerry attended. From the same people that sold you global cooling a few decades ago, the same people who have been found to have doctored temperature data, the same people who sell you an atmospheric CO2 correlation to global temps that only works for a very small sample size while completely ignoring that it was hundreds to almost 1000 times higher in most of the Earth's living history before the industrial age as the Earth's temps oscillated naturally between 12 and 22 degree centigrade semi-stable equilibrium points, the same people that have sold you hundreds of over-simplistic climate predictive models that disagree on whether a feedback is positive or negative and totally discount the greatest source of energy (from the sun) in the Earth's non-closed system they naively believe a few inputs and guestimated feedbacks could represent. That very liberal position is also permitted.

So in summary, two threads that liberals like which support liberal positions are just dandy, but the moment someone posts a thread (even if composed of nearly entirely fact) that undermines a liberal position, it is gone. Hmmm.... My issue lies not with you, but with the moderators who are pushing a political agenda which is clearly evidenced by which OT threads are permitted for days and which are quickly censored.

 

[PSUfan98]

Is there anything 98 is not afraid of? Gotta be painful going through your life lurching from one locus of fear to the next, in a personal state of DefCon 3 at all times.

That said, it seems the only way these ninnies can deal with it is to foist it on others. It is a glorious time for them when some event occurs about which they can tell us "I told you so."

Then, when they are asked what their solution is, it is always the same solution that has failed a whole bunch of times since VietNam--ground troops. Carpet bombing. Torture. Trillions of dollars, thousands/millions of destroyed lives both here and in the target countries, huge costs nobody wants to pay. Then they begin to sell national debt/deficit Fear.

I am not living in fear of anything except guys who think like he does being in charge.

And right on cue, "DEM"lion, too dumb to realize that he just proved my point, spews a bunch of liberal talking points mischaracterizing conservatives (because that's what they do) emphasizing that this is clearly a liberal thread. What will the board monitors do? They will allow until such time that his and other liberals talking points from their comedians that deliver their "news" from their liberal masters in the form of a funny are found to not stand up to the scrutiny of fact and logic. At which point the liberals start to look like complete clowns, the moderators will save them by removing the thread. Until such time that the moderating changes, BWI is telling conservatives that they are not welcome here. It is the main reason I stopped subscribing years ago. A political agenda often makes for bad business.

 

[PSUTENN1]

Back up the truck 98...you're driving off the rails. There is no "position implied by your thread" man.

My thread simply asks for peoples opinion of a film, and, as the interviewees state "you can't shoot your way out of this war", I made no endorsement of those statements.

Second, I made no post about climate change, none, so I have no clue what your posting about.
You better read Dems post above...looks like he nailed it.

I only wanted to know what people thought of the documentary. Jeeeesh...You are too loaded for bear man...cool out.

 

[demlion]

And right on cue, "DEM"lion, too dumb to realize that he just proved my point, spews a bunch of liberal talking points mischaracterizing conservatives because that's what they do emphasizes that this is clearly a liberal thread. What will the board monitors do? They will allow until such time that his and other liberals talking points from their comedians that deliver their "news" from their liberal masters in the form of a funny are found to not stand up to the scrutiny of fact and logic. At which point the liberals start to look like complete clowns, the moderators will save them by removing the thread. Until such time that the moderating changes, BWI is telling conservatives that they are not welcome here. It is the main reason I stopped subscribing years ago. A political agenda often makes for bad business.

Whaaa Wha wha. Unfortunately, fear salesmen walk down both aisles. You just happen to be the best example.

 

[PSUTENN1]

Tom - please delete my thread. For crying out loud. Wow

 

[PSUfan98]

Back up the truck 98...you're driving off the rails. There is no "position implied by your thread" man.

My thread simply asks for peoples opinion of a film, and, as the interviewees state "you can't shoot your way out of this war", I made no endorsement of those statements.

Second, I made no post about climate change, none, so I have no clue what your posting about.
You better read Dems post above...looks like he nailed it.

I only wanted to know what people thought of the documentary. Jeeeesh...You are too loaded for bear man...cool out.

Again, please reread, I did not say you were a liberal. I simply said that "you can't shoot your way out of this war" and your thread are supportive of liberal positions. I don't even say that they are your liberal positions. But you are missing the big picture.

A few days ago I posted an OT thread also on national security. It was a bunch of facts and one observation which was non-political. It was quickly removed because those facts were not something the liberal moderators cared have discussed. My thread was not intended to be political as you say yours was not intended to be. But because yours seems to align with liberal positions as DEM lion illustrates, your thread is on day 2. Additionally, a thread about liberal pushed climate change seems to be cool with the liberal moderators for multiple days.

You see, my issue is that threads that support liberal positions are just fine on this board and those supporting conservative positions are removed. It doesn't matter that you did not intend a political discussion or do not endorse the political position supported by your thread. My thread wasn't political either. It just wasn't a liberal thread which is what the mods seem to allow. Pretty soon the mods will start banning OT hunting threads because people legally obtain guns to do it and it can be associated more with people from rural areas and other assumed conservative markers.

 

[KnightSlayer]

And right on cue, "DEM"lion, too dumb to realize that he just proved my point, spews a bunch of liberal talking points mischaracterizing conservatives (because that's what they do) emphasizing that this is clearly a liberal thread. What will the board monitors do? They will allow until such time that his and other liberals talking points from their comedians that deliver their "news" from their liberal masters in the form of a funny are found to not stand up to the scrutiny of fact and logic. At which point the liberals start to look like complete clowns, the moderators will save them by removing the thread. Until such time that the moderating changes, BWI is telling conservatives that they are not welcome here. It is the main reason I stopped subscribing years ago. A political agenda often makes for bad business.

Right on cue? You were the first to respond to this post with an inflammatory political comment. Then when someone responded, you start whining like you have a sore swollen pussy.

 

[Nitt1300]

I only see one poster trying to make this political

 

[demlion]

Again, please reread, I did not say you were a liberal. I simply said that "you can't shoot your way out of this war" and your thread are supportive of liberal positions. I don't even say that they are your liberal positions. But you are missing the big picture.

A few days ago I posted an OT thread also on national security. It was a bunch of facts and one observation which was non-political. It was quickly removed because those facts were not something the liberal moderators cared have discussed. My thread was not intended to be political as you say yours was not intended to be. But because yours seems to align with liberal positions as DEM lion illustrates, your thread is on day 2. Additionally, a thread about liberal pushed climate change seems to be cool with the liberal moderators for multiple days.

You see, my issue is that threads that support liberal positions are just fine on this board and those supporting conservative positions are removed. It doesn't matter that you did not intend a political discussion or do not endorse the political position supported by your thread. My thread wasn't political either. It just wasn't a liberal thread which is what the mods seem to allow. Pretty soon the mods will start banning OT hunting threads because people legally obtain guns to do it and it can be associated more with people from rural areas and other assumed conservative markers.

OK, let's assume you are correct for the sake of argument: Tom and the moderators who work with this stuff or wild-eyed liberals with no sense of what decent, fearmongering conservatism is about, and they are horribly unfair to your posts, deleting them immediately while hanging on to liberal posts as though they were life itself. YOU ARE BEING TREATED UNFAIRLY. YOU. ARE. OUTRAGED.

Are you not just seeking some sort of political correctness here? Remember, this is an internet message board, not some sort of government board where you go to seek handouts from the taxpayers. You have no constitutional rights here. Nobody has to listen to what you say, and absolutely nobody has to agree with it. In the popular phrase, the mods do not have to "defend to the death your right" to say jack squat. You can be sent to the Test Board, told to STFU or banned at any time. You have two choices if you don't like it--change what you post or GTFO. Pretty clear that few to no posters agrees with your thesis in general, and nobody agrees in this specific case.

 

[hagberg]

Again, please reread, I did not say you were a liberal. I simply said that "you can't shoot your way out of this war" and your thread are supportive of liberal positions. I don't even say that they are your liberal positions. But you are missing the big picture.

A few days ago I posted an OT thread also on national security. It was a bunch of facts and one observation which was non-political. It was quickly removed because those facts were not something the liberal moderators cared have discussed. My thread was not intended to be political as you say yours was not intended to be. But because yours seems to align with liberal positions as DEM lion illustrates, your thread is on day 2. Additionally, a thread about liberal pushed climate change seems to be cool with the liberal moderators for multiple days.

You see, my issue is that threads that support liberal positions are just fine on this board and those supporting conservative positions are removed. It doesn't matter that you did not intend a political discussion or do not endorse the political position supported by your thread. My thread wasn't political either. It just wasn't a liberal thread which is what the mods seem to allow. Pretty soon the mods will start banning OT hunting threads because people legally obtain guns to do it and it can be associated more with people from rural areas and other assumed conservative markers.

Please give it a rest. I'm more conservative than most on this board (in my opinion, which is based solely on reading content and subtext of a lot of posts). I'm a retired Marine and have spent nearly 30 years working in the intelligence community (NOT CIA), and I thought the OP was pretty apolitical. (I'm also a hunter and multiple gun owner, to address another of your complaints.)

I try to keep my politics off the board, but this thread dragged me into the gutter. If I sat down and had a discussion with someone as polarizing as, say, demlion seems to be, it would take him about 27 seconds to label me a right-wing nutjob. Consequently, I tend to officially ignore people who express their opinions in an extreme fashion, liberally (npi) peppered with personal assaults on any who dare disagree with them.

Conversely, when someone on the right goes full-bore Limbaugh-esque, it makes me cringe. These kinds of repeated accumulated rants on multiple topics serve no purpose other than to encourage dissenters to dissent, and so the downhill spiral begins. Unfortunately, most seem not to be able to distinguish one "righty" from another, thus I get painted with the same broad brush you supplied.

In general, I agree that there is more tolerance for liberal points of view, but that's the nature of the beast these days. Repeatedly posting strident responses, regardless your political beliefs, does no good; it just lends credence to the "loonie/nutjob" stereotypes.

If you want to debate your political points of view, have at it.....somewhere else, and preferably in person; this is exactly the wrong place to do it. We've all heard the old saying about opinions.....well, magnify that a thousand-fold when you add in the anonymity an internet message board provides.

 

[demlion]

Please give it a rest. I'm more conservative than most on this board (in my opinion, which is based solely on reading content and subtext of a lot of posts). I'm a retired Marine and have spent nearly 30 years working in the intelligence community (NOT CIA), and I thought the OP was pretty apolitical. (I'm also a hunter and multiple gun owner, to address another of your complaints.)

I try to keep my politics off the board, but this thread dragged me into the gutter. If I sat down and had a discussion with someone as polarizing as, say, demlion seems to be, it would take him about 27 seconds to label me a right-wing nutjob. Consequently, I tend to officially ignore people who express their opinions in an extreme fashion, liberally (npi) peppered with personal assaults on any who dare disagree with them.

Conversely, when someone on the right goes full-bore Limbaugh-esque, it makes me cringe. These kinds of repeated accumulated rants on multiple topics serve no purpose other than to encourage dissenters to dissent, and so the downhill spiral begins. Unfortunately, most seem not to be able to distinguish one "righty" from another, thus I get painted with the same broad brush you supplied.

In general, I agree that there is more tolerance for liberal points of view, but that's the nature of the beast these days. Repeatedly posting strident responses, regardless your political beliefs, does no good; it just lends credence to the "loonie/nutjob" stereotypes.

If you want to debate your political points of view, have at it.....somewhere else, and preferably in person; this is exactly the wrong place to do it. We've all heard the old saying about opinions.....well, magnify that a thousand-fold when you add in the anonymity an internet message board provides.

I am a "hunter and a multiple gun owner" too. But even 98's BS has not caused me to think he is a "right wing nut job." He is someone who is afraid, and since my kids got out of footie pajamas I have a marked decrease in tolerance for the fearful, especially when they are using it to sell something. I am happy to polarize anybody on that topic.

BTW, gun ownership is another prime subject for fear salesmanship, and it always amuses me when otherwise tough guys are selling the fear angle on gun ownership. there are fewer threats to Americans' right to bear arms right now than at any time in our history, yet to hear them talk mass confiscation is just around the corner. It is pathetic.

 

[PSUfan98]

Please give it a rest. I'm more conservative than most on this board (in my opinion, which is based solely on reading content and subtext of a lot of posts). I'm a retired Marine and have spent nearly 30 years working in the intelligence community (NOT CIA), and I thought the OP was pretty apolitical. (I'm also a hunter and multiple gun owner, to address another of your complaints.)

I try to keep my politics off the board, but this thread dragged me into the gutter. If I sat down and had a discussion with someone as polarizing as, say, demlion seems to be, it would take him about 27 seconds to label me a right-wing nutjob. Consequently, I tend to officially ignore people who express their opinions in an extreme fashion, liberally (npi) peppered with personal assaults on any who dare disagree with them.

Conversely, when someone on the right goes full-bore Limbaugh-esque, it makes me cringe. These kinds of repeated accumulated rants on multiple topics serve no purpose other than to encourage dissenters to dissent, and so the downhill spiral begins. Unfortunately, most seem not to be able to distinguish one "righty" from another, thus I get painted with the same broad brush you supplied.

In general, I agree that there is more tolerance for liberal points of view, but that's the nature of the beast these days. Repeatedly posting strident responses, regardless your political beliefs, does no good; it just lends credence to the "loonie/nutjob" stereotypes.

If you want to debate your political points of view, have at it.....somewhere else, and preferably in person; this is exactly the wrong place to do it. We've all heard the old saying about opinions.....well, magnify that a thousand-fold when you add in the anonymity an internet message board provides.

Curious about your opinion on the thread I posted then. I posted the below two paragraphs OT and it was quickly removed. Is what I posted political and if so, why? What makes it political whereas this thread was not? The only observation which is not fact was the 3rd sentence which is not political and most would opine the same. The two questions are not opinion nor are they political, they are logical questions. All else are statements of fact.

"OT: Feds are now warning that ISIS is printing fake Syrian passports with passport covers from Russia. Yet, the US and Europe are taking more and more Syrian refugees. Sometimes the things that seem so incredibly simple to most of our population are flat out missed by our government leaders. People have warned that ISIS could be among the Syrian refugees since they first started leaving Syria. But your government officials insisted that the Syrian refugees weren't a risk. Aha.

Now the feds are saying that they can't really verify the Syrian passports and that ISIS made fakes have already been discovered. How long did it take our guys to catch on after ISIS started printing fake passports? How many ISIS threats are now throughout Europe and are in the US as a result of the Syrian refugee program? But we're going to keep bringing them in, that's the deal. Hell or high water, stay the course."

The fact is that on this board, liberal threads are fanned and any hint of conservative ideas or facts which might validate conservative ideas are quickly sanitized. I would normally not even react to a thread like this but after watching this thread and the climate change propaganda thread be supported by the mods while threads that threaten their positions even if apolitical are removed, the hypocrisy had to be pointed out.

 

[PSUfan98]

I am a "hunter and a multiple gun owner" too. But even 98's BS has not caused me to think he is a "right wing nut job." He is someone who is afraid, and since my kids got out of footie pajamas I have a marked decrease in tolerance for the fearful, especially when they are using it to sell something. I am happy to polarize anybody on that topic.

BTW, gun ownership is another prime subject for fear salesmanship, and it always amuses me when otherwise tough guys are selling the fear angle on gun ownership. there are fewer threats to Americans' right to bear arms right now than at any time in our history, yet to hear them talk mass confiscation is just around the corner. It is pathetic.

You have been issued the "fear" response from your political talking points. Do I think you believe it? Doubt it. It is a political talking point that you and other liberals have been parroting since it became clear that we aren't taking the appropriate measures for our national security. Am I fearful? Hmmm....Maybe I ought not have raised my hand decades ago or served in a number of combat zones? Fearful? Lawyer, please. But I do very much care about this great Country and our national security. My concern here has only been that the mods delete anything that may not follow their party's line while propagating clearly political threads that support it.

 

[Nitt1300]

blah blah blah-there are lots of political boards for this crap-this is a football board

 

[demlion]

You have been issued the "fear" response from your political talking points. Do I think you believe it? Doubt it. It is a political talking point that you and other liberals have been parroting since it became clear that we aren't taking the appropriate measures for our national security. Am I fearful? Hmmm....Maybe I ought not have raised my hand decades ago or served in a number of combat zones? Fearful? Lawyer, please. But I do very much care about this great Country and our national security. My concern here has only been that the mods delete anything that may not follow their party's line while propagating clearly political threads that support it.

I knew what fear was a long time ago. I don't need talking points from anyone to see how insidious it is, and what those who use it irresponsibly seek to gain, and how they will destroy whatever they control once they have gained power using fear. Of course you are wildly afraid of ISIS under your bed. Before that you were afraid of Saddam Hussein and Gorbachev and Ho Chi Minh and all the rest. But I do not care about your fear, I care how it get used irresponsibly to drive decisions that cost many lives and lots of money.

 

[retsio]

I am a "hunter and a multiple gun owner" too. But even 98's BS has not caused me to think he is a "right wing nut job." He is someone who is afraid, and since my kids got out of footie pajamas I have a marked decrease in tolerance for the fearful, especially when they are using it to sell something. I am happy to polarize anybody on that topic.

BTW, gun ownership is another prime subject for fear salesmanship, and it always amuses me when otherwise tough guys are selling the fear angle on gun ownership. there are fewer threats to Americans' right to bear arms right now than at any time in our history, yet to hear them talk mass confiscation is just around the corner. It is pathetic.

Stop the Fear !!

Please look at the picture I link to my posts -- in the upper left hand corner....is Chris Aber, native of State College, PA, former team leader NCIS Special Security in Wash DC and the Pentagon. He was 'on the border' for 7 years before returning to the good ole USA to be married and could not fly commercial because of the armament he had to carry. Upon his return to 'A' he interrogated prisoners with a dog by his side before being assigned to 'somewhere' with his team.

I have not heard from him in 2 years and hope he is safe, while not sending him an email that might give away his location.

I am thankful to Chris and many others that believe freedom, education and opportunity is to be defended and allowed to continue, rather than destroyed by dictators who have chosen to give themselves an exaulted position by default and rule by merciless decree and tyranny.

We have an international problem right now that many will not confront, but stop acting our of fear and support freedom that gives you endless possibilities. Chris and many others deserve that and more....

 

[Zenophile]

I didn't say that you are a leftie and I can't say that I know your political leanings as a poster but the position implied by your thread particularly in "to a man they believe we can't kill our way out of our current war" is consistent with many liberal positions.

It is also the stated position of all 12 living former CIA Directors who were interviewed for this documentary (and this is clearly the intended reference of the OP).

 

[hagberg]

Curious about your opinion on the thread I posted then. I posted the below two paragraphs OT and it was quickly removed. Is what I posted political and if so, why? What makes it political whereas this thread was not? The only observation which is not fact was the 3rd sentence which is not political and most would opine the same. The two questions are not opinion nor are they political, they are logical questions. All else are statements of fact.

"OT: Feds are now warning that ISIS is printing fake Syrian passports with passport covers from Russia. Yet, the US and Europe are taking more and more Syrian refugees. Sometimes the things that seem so incredibly simple to most of our population are flat out missed by our government leaders. People have warned that ISIS could be among the Syrian refugees since they first started leaving Syria. But your government officials insisted that the Syrian refugees weren't a risk. Aha.

Now the feds are saying that they can't really verify the Syrian passports and that ISIS made fakes have already been discovered. How long did it take our guys to catch on after ISIS started printing fake passports? How many ISIS threats are now throughout Europe and are in the US as a result of the Syrian refugee program? But we're going to keep bringing them in, that's the deal. Hell or high water, stay the course."

The fact is that on this board, liberal threads are fanned and any hint of conservative ideas or facts which might validate conservative ideas are quickly sanitized. I would normally not even react to a thread like this but after watching this thread and the climate change propaganda thread be supported by the mods while threads that threaten their positions even if apolitical are removed, the hypocrisy had to be pointed out.

I didn't see that thread, but I agree with most of what you said regarding Syrian refugees and ISIL's publicly stated desire to slide as many of their people into that flow as possible. I am against the "y'all come" policy that some propose.

However, my point was more about the how and the where of the conversations. Debating on an internet message board (and sports board at that), where anonymity reigns, is about as effective as internet sex. The Master Debaters might feel really good about the "shots" they take, but it's a very one-sided affair. For much the same reason, I don't listen to the talking.....make that screaming.....heads on any news networks anymore, either.

As for any bias by the mods, well.....they'll tell you they have none, because in their minds they don't. You, me, all of us are at their mercy. All I can tell you is not to tilt at windmills in a place and manner that will never have any effect. I can attest that I feel much better when I stick to the reasonable, such as they are, discussions about PSU (and in my case Pittsburgh professional) sports.

Oh, and don't feed the trolls!

 

[Offside Clyde]

This is why we can't have nice things. Seriously, this could have been a fun discussion. But now I am bowing out. Good day gents.

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

Tom - please delete my thread. For crying out loud. Wow

Nothing wrong with your thread. You pointed out the subject of a program and asked for opinion of others. The fact of the matter is that the Directors are now stating publicly what many of us insisted all along was true....and we got criticized for it. That's why they let their heads trick them into saying that YOU made a partisan post.

That is why you have people objecting: these are folks who never, ever want to admit they have been wrong...even once.

Seems like some folks on a televised debate last night now have opinions similar to those of the CIA Directors.

Unfortunately, even though it is the internet age, nobody is ever going to call them out regarding what their opinion was 10, 15 years ago, or what they did to stop it. (Which, incidentally, was nothing.) The closest thing we get to calling out is a thread like this. (FWIW, I personally expect no apologies from those who called me unAmerican, even tho I agreed when it mattered with what those CIA directors and candidates are now saying.)

 

[Pittmustang]

Here is another interesting documentary but seeing the other thread on I didn't want to post it there for fear of getting hate mail lol.

Even if you don't agree on the subject matter pretty clear that tactics people will use to deceive and misrepresent things is astonishing.