Why is PA the BEST???

[razorsedgeCE]

I've lived in PA most of my life (with exception of my military years) and what I've realized is that not only is PA arguably the best wrestling state, but many other states don't share our amazing passion for the sport. Some of my military comrades thought that "wrestling" meant the WWE.

Sometimes I wonder these things, similar to how a single small corner of the world known as Western Pennsylvania produced the likes of some of the greatest quarterbacks to have ever lived. Including names such as Namath, Montana, Marino, and Kelly.

I've had this discussion with some of my buddies, but was curious on other's thoughts. Why do you think that PA continues to be the best wrestling state (I may be a bit biased) year in and year out? We have one of, if not the highest rate of DI AA's each year. What makes our state the best? Even our college programs like PSU normally pack the house for matches, but perhaps with the exception of Iowa, other programs can't seem to match the enthusiasm.

I'm proud to be a born and bred Pennsylvanian!!! Thoughts???

 

[johnstownsteel]

I’d start with participation. It snowballs... a boys grandfather wrestled, his dad wrestled now he wrestles. So let’s thank the dads out there for getting their sons interested. Next I’d mention coaching. From the time our boys start wrestling, the coaching they get in this state is superb...from elementary all the way through high school. Then throw in the coaching they are getting from the abundance of clubs and you can’t help but produce solid wrestlers. And remember, with so many good wrestlers everywhere, no shortage of having workout partners to help make them even better.

Aside from those two things, I’m not sure we are any different than most other states. I do think our boys are hard nosed with a workman like attitude. I attribute it to good parenting. The effort and hard work they are putting into the farms or other jobs rubs off when its time to wrestle.

 

[razorsedgeCE]

I’d start with participation. It snowballs... a boys grandfather wrestled, his dad wrestled now he wrestles. So let’s thank the dads out there for getting their sons interested. Next I’d mention coaching. From the time our boys start wrestling, the coaching they get in this state is superb...from elementary all the way through high school. Then throw in the coaching they are getting from the abundance of clubs and you can’t help but produce solid wrestlers. And remember, with so many good wrestlers everywhere, no shortage of having workout partners to help make them even better.

Aside from those two things, I’m not sure we are any different than most other states. I do think our boys are hard nosed with a workman like attitude. I attribute it to good parenting. The effort and hard work they are putting into the farms or other jobs rubs off when its time to wrestle.

Great analysis @johnstownsteel!!! I guess it goes back to the old adage, "Iron sharpens iron." Made some great points, thanks for the post!!!

 

[Needanap]

I've lived in PA most of my life (with exception of my military years) and what I've realized is that not only is PA arguably the best wrestling state, but many other states don't share our amazing passion for the sport. Some of my military comrades thought that "wrestling" meant the WWE.

Sometimes I wonder these things, similar to how a single small corner of the world known as Western Pennsylvania produced the likes of some of the greatest quarterbacks to have ever lived. Including names such as Namath, Montana, Marino, and Kelly.

I've had this discussion with some of my buddies, but was curious on other's thoughts. Why do you think that PA continues to be the best wrestling state (I may be a bit biased) year in and year out? We have one of, if not the highest rate of DI AA's each year. What makes our state the best? Even our college programs like PSU normally pack the house for matches, but perhaps with the exception of Iowa, other programs can't seem to match the enthusiasm.

I'm proud to be a born and bred Pennsylvanian!!! Thoughts???

Don't forget Unitas and Blanda

 

[dropster45]

11 Division 1 programs has a LOT to do with it. Trickle down economics may not work so well, but trickle down wrestling knowledge and culture surely does. This also explains why PA, despite having such a large talent pool, had past difficulty in winning NCAA Championships. That is, the large pool was diluted amongst these many D1 schools (I believe at one point there were 21).
Here's a list:

School Location State Nickname Conference Primary conference National titles[2]
American University Washington DC Eagles EIWA Patriot League 0
Appalachian State University Boone NC Mountaineers SoCon Sun Belt Conference 0
Arizona State University Tempe AZ Sun Devils Pac-12 1– 1988
Binghamton University Vestal NY Bearcats EIWA America East Conference 0
Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania Bloomsburg PA Huskies EWL Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (Div.II) 0
(2 NAIA– 1960, 1965)[3]
Brown University Providence RI Bears EIWA Ivy League 0
Bucknell University Lewisburg PA Bison EIWA Patriot League 0
University at Buffalo Buffalo NY Bulls MAC 0
(1 Div.III– 1978)[4]
California Polytechnic State University (Cal Poly) San Luis Obispo CA Mustangs Pac-12 Big West Conference 0
(8 Div II– 1966, 1968–74)[5]
California State University, Bakersfield Bakersfield CA Roadrunners Pac-12 Western Athletic Conference 0
(8 Div.II– 1976-77, 1979–83, 1987)[5]
California State University, Fresno (Fresno State) Fresno CA Bulldogs Big 12 Mountain West Conference 0
Campbell University Buies Creek NC Fighting Camels SoCon Big South Conference 0
Central Michigan University Mount Pleasant MI Chippewas MAC 0
The Citadel Charleston SC Bulldogs SoCon 0
Clarion University of Pennsylvania Clarion PA Golden Eagles EWL Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (Div.II) 0
Cleveland State University Cleveland OH Vikings EWL Horizon League 0
Columbia University New York NY Lions EIWA Ivy League 0
Cornell University Ithaca NY Big Red EIWA Ivy League 0
Davidson College Davidson NC Wildcats SoCon Atlantic 10 Conference 0
Drexel University Philadelphia PA Dragons EIWA Colonial Athletic Association 0
Duke University Durham NC Blue Devils ACC 0
Eastern Michigan University Ypsilanti MI Eagles MAC 0
Edinboro University of Pennsylvania Edinboro PA Fighting Scots EWL Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (Div.II) 0
Franklin & Marshall College Lancaster PA Diplomats EIWA Centennial Conference(Div.III) 0
Gardner-Webb University Boiling Springs NC Runnin' Bulldogs SoCon Big South Conference 0
George Mason University Fairfax County VA Patriots EWL Atlantic 10 Conference 0
Harvard University Cambridge MA Crimson EIWA Ivy League 0
Hofstra University Hempstead NY Pride EIWA Colonial Athletic Association 0
University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign (Illinois) Champaign–Urbana IL Fighting Illini Big Ten 0
Indiana University Bloomington(Indiana) Bloomington IN Hoosiers Big Ten 1– 1932
University of Iowa Iowa City IA Hawkeyes Big Ten 23– 1975-76, 1978–86, 1991–93, 1995-2000, 2008–10
Iowa State University Ames IA Cyclones Big 12 8– t-1933, 1965, 1969, 1970, 1972–73, 1977, 1987
Kent State University Kent OH Golden Flashes MAC 0
Lehigh University Bethleham PA Mountain Hawks EIWA Patriot League 0
Lock Haven University of Pennsylvania Lock Haven PA Bald Eagles EWL Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (Div.II) 0
(4 NAIA–1961, 1963, 1966–67)[3]
University of Maryland, College Park (Maryland) College Park MD Terrapins Big Ten 0
University of Michigan Ann Arbor MI Wolverines Big Ten 0
Michigan State University East Lansing MI Spartans Big Ten 1– 1967
University of Minnesota Minneapolisand St. Paul MN Golden Gophers Big Ten 3– 2001-02, 2007
University of Missouri Columbia MO Tigers MAC Southeastern Conference 0
University of Nebraska–Lincoln(Nebraska) Lincoln NE Cornhuskers Big Ten 0
North Carolina State University(NC State) Raleigh NC Wolfpack ACC 0
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (North Carolina) Chapel Hill NC Tar Heels ACC 0
North Dakota State University Fargo ND Bison Big 12 The Summit League 0
(4 Div.II– 1988, 1998, 2000–01)[5]
University of Northern Colorado Greeley CO Bears Big 12 Big Sky Conference 0
Northern Illinois University DeKalb IL Huskies MAC 0
University of Northern Iowa Cedar Falls IA Panthers Big 12 Missouri Valley Conference 1– 1950
(2 Div.II– 1975, 1978)[5]
Northwestern University Evanston IL Wildcats Big Ten 0
Ohio University Athens OH Bobcats MAC 0
The Ohio State University Columbus OH Buckeyes Big Ten 1– 2015
University of Oklahoma Norman OK Sooners Big 12 7– 1932.1951-52, 1957, 1960, 1964, 1974
Oklahoma State University–Stillwater (Oklahoma State) Stillwater OK Cowboys Big 12 34– 1928-31, t-1933, 1934–42, 1946, 1948–49, 1954–56, 1958–59, 1961–62, 1964, 1966, 1968, 1971, 1989, 1990, 1994, 2003–06
Old Dominion University Norfolk VA Monarchs MAC Conference USA 0
Oregon State University Corvallis OR Beavers Pac-12 0
University of Pennsylvania(Penn) Philadelphia PA Quakers EIWA Ivy League 0
Pennsylvania State University(Penn State) University Park PA Nittany Lions Big Ten 7– 1953, 2011–14, 2016–17
University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh PA Panthers ACC 0
Princeton University Princeton NJ Tigers EIWA Ivy League 0
Purdue University West Lafayette IN Boilermakers Big Ten 0
Rider University Lawrenceville NJ Broncs EWL Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference 0
Rutgers University–New Brunswick (Rutgers) New Brunswick NJ Scarlet Knights Big Ten 0
Sacred Heart University Fairfield CT Pioneers EIWA Northeast Conference 0
South Dakota State University Brookings SD Jackrabbits Big 12 The Summit League 0
Southern Illinois University Edwardsville (SIU Edwardsville or SIUE) Edwardsville IL Cougars SoCon Ohio Valley Conference 0
(3 Div.II–1984-86)[5]
Stanford University Stanford CA Cardinal Pac-12 0
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga (Chattanooga) Chattanooga TN Mocs SoCon 0
United States Air Force Academy (Air Force) Colorado Springs CO Falcons Big 12 Mountain West Conference 0
United States Military Academy(Army) West Point NY Black Knights EIWA Patriot League 0
United States Naval Academy(Navy) Annapolis MD Midshipmen EIWA Patriot League 0
Utah Valley University Orem UT Wolverines Big 12 Western Athletic Conference 0
University of Virginia Charlottesville VA Cavaliers ACC 0
Virginia Military Institute (VMI) Lexington VA Keydets SoCon 0
Virginia Tech Blacksburg VA Hokies ACC 0
West Virginia University Morgantown WV Mountaineers Big 12 0
University of Wisconsin–Madison (Wisconsin) Madison WI Badgers Big Ten 0
University of Wyoming Laramie WY Cowboys Big 12 Mountain West Conference 0

In transitionEdit

 

[razorsedgeCE]

Don't forget Unitas and Blanda

You're right, crazy!!!

 

[razorsedgeCE]

11 Division 1 programs has a LOT to do with it. Trickle down economics may not work so well, but trickle down wrestling knowledge and culture surely does. This also explains why PA, despite having such a large talent pool, had past difficulty in winning NCAA Championships. That is, the large pool was diluted amongst these many D1 schools (I believe at one point there were 21).
Here's a list:

School Location State Nickname Conference Primary conference National titles[2]
American University Washington DC Eagles EIWA Patriot League 0
Appalachian State University Boone NC Mountaineers SoCon Sun Belt Conference 0
Arizona State University Tempe AZ Sun Devils Pac-12 1– 1988
Binghamton University Vestal NY Bearcats EIWA America East Conference 0
Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania Bloomsburg PA Huskies EWL Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (Div.II) 0
(2 NAIA– 1960, 1965)[3]
Brown University Providence RI Bears EIWA Ivy League 0
Bucknell University Lewisburg PA Bison EIWA Patriot League 0
University at Buffalo Buffalo NY Bulls MAC 0
(1 Div.III– 1978)[4]
California Polytechnic State University (Cal Poly) San Luis Obispo CA Mustangs Pac-12 Big West Conference 0
(8 Div II– 1966, 1968–74)[5]
California State University, Bakersfield Bakersfield CA Roadrunners Pac-12 Western Athletic Conference 0
(8 Div.II– 1976-77, 1979–83, 1987)[5]
California State University, Fresno (Fresno State) Fresno CA Bulldogs Big 12 Mountain West Conference 0
Campbell University Buies Creek NC Fighting Camels SoCon Big South Conference 0
Central Michigan University Mount Pleasant MI Chippewas MAC 0
The Citadel Charleston SC Bulldogs SoCon 0
Clarion University of Pennsylvania Clarion PA Golden Eagles EWL Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (Div.II) 0
Cleveland State University Cleveland OH Vikings EWL Horizon League 0
Columbia University New York NY Lions EIWA Ivy League 0
Cornell University Ithaca NY Big Red EIWA Ivy League 0
Davidson College Davidson NC Wildcats SoCon Atlantic 10 Conference 0
Drexel University Philadelphia PA Dragons EIWA Colonial Athletic Association 0
Duke University Durham NC Blue Devils ACC 0
Eastern Michigan University Ypsilanti MI Eagles MAC 0
Edinboro University of Pennsylvania Edinboro PA Fighting Scots EWL Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (Div.II) 0
Franklin & Marshall College Lancaster PA Diplomats EIWA Centennial Conference(Div.III) 0
Gardner-Webb University Boiling Springs NC Runnin' Bulldogs SoCon Big South Conference 0
George Mason University Fairfax County VA Patriots EWL Atlantic 10 Conference 0
Harvard University Cambridge MA Crimson EIWA Ivy League 0
Hofstra University Hempstead NY Pride EIWA Colonial Athletic Association 0
University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign (Illinois) Champaign–Urbana IL Fighting Illini Big Ten 0
Indiana University Bloomington(Indiana) Bloomington IN Hoosiers Big Ten 1– 1932
University of Iowa Iowa City IA Hawkeyes Big Ten 23– 1975-76, 1978–86, 1991–93, 1995-2000, 2008–10
Iowa State University Ames IA Cyclones Big 12 8– t-1933, 1965, 1969, 1970, 1972–73, 1977, 1987
Kent State University Kent OH Golden Flashes MAC 0
Lehigh University Bethleham PA Mountain Hawks EIWA Patriot League 0
Lock Haven University of Pennsylvania Lock Haven PA Bald Eagles EWL Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (Div.II) 0
(4 NAIA–1961, 1963, 1966–67)[3]
University of Maryland, College Park (Maryland) College Park MD Terrapins Big Ten 0
University of Michigan Ann Arbor MI Wolverines Big Ten 0
Michigan State University East Lansing MI Spartans Big Ten 1– 1967
University of Minnesota Minneapolisand St. Paul MN Golden Gophers Big Ten 3– 2001-02, 2007
University of Missouri Columbia MO Tigers MAC Southeastern Conference 0
University of Nebraska–Lincoln(Nebraska) Lincoln NE Cornhuskers Big Ten 0
North Carolina State University(NC State) Raleigh NC Wolfpack ACC 0
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (North Carolina) Chapel Hill NC Tar Heels ACC 0
North Dakota State University Fargo ND Bison Big 12 The Summit League 0
(4 Div.II– 1988, 1998, 2000–01)[5]
University of Northern Colorado Greeley CO Bears Big 12 Big Sky Conference 0
Northern Illinois University DeKalb IL Huskies MAC 0
University of Northern Iowa Cedar Falls IA Panthers Big 12 Missouri Valley Conference 1– 1950
(2 Div.II– 1975, 1978)[5]
Northwestern University Evanston IL Wildcats Big Ten 0
Ohio University Athens OH Bobcats MAC 0
The Ohio State University Columbus OH Buckeyes Big Ten 1– 2015
University of Oklahoma Norman OK Sooners Big 12 7– 1932.1951-52, 1957, 1960, 1964, 1974
Oklahoma State University–Stillwater (Oklahoma State) Stillwater OK Cowboys Big 12 34– 1928-31, t-1933, 1934–42, 1946, 1948–49, 1954–56, 1958–59, 1961–62, 1964, 1966, 1968, 1971, 1989, 1990, 1994, 2003–06
Old Dominion University Norfolk VA Monarchs MAC Conference USA 0
Oregon State University Corvallis OR Beavers Pac-12 0
University of Pennsylvania(Penn) Philadelphia PA Quakers EIWA Ivy League 0
Pennsylvania State University(Penn State) University Park PA Nittany Lions Big Ten 7– 1953, 2011–14, 2016–17
University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh PA Panthers ACC 0
Princeton University Princeton NJ Tigers EIWA Ivy League 0
Purdue University West Lafayette IN Boilermakers Big Ten 0
Rider University Lawrenceville NJ Broncs EWL Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference 0
Rutgers University–New Brunswick (Rutgers) New Brunswick NJ Scarlet Knights Big Ten 0
Sacred Heart University Fairfield CT Pioneers EIWA Northeast Conference 0
South Dakota State University Brookings SD Jackrabbits Big 12 The Summit League 0
Southern Illinois University Edwardsville (SIU Edwardsville or SIUE) Edwardsville IL Cougars SoCon Ohio Valley Conference 0
(3 Div.II–1984-86)[5]
Stanford University Stanford CA Cardinal Pac-12 0
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga (Chattanooga) Chattanooga TN Mocs SoCon 0
United States Air Force Academy (Air Force) Colorado Springs CO Falcons Big 12 Mountain West Conference 0
United States Military Academy(Army) West Point NY Black Knights EIWA Patriot League 0
United States Naval Academy(Navy) Annapolis MD Midshipmen EIWA Patriot League 0
Utah Valley University Orem UT Wolverines Big 12 Western Athletic Conference 0
University of Virginia Charlottesville VA Cavaliers ACC 0
Virginia Military Institute (VMI) Lexington VA Keydets SoCon 0
Virginia Tech Blacksburg VA Hokies ACC 0
West Virginia University Morgantown WV Mountaineers Big 12 0
University of Wisconsin–Madison (Wisconsin) Madison WI Badgers Big Ten 0
University of Wyoming Laramie WY Cowboys Big 12 Mountain West Conference 0

In transitionEdit

Great point, thanks!!!

 

[CropDuster507]

From what I remember reading, it sounded like many wrestler folkstyle year-round. Which, that helps. I can think of maybe one or two clubs that do that in MN, and it isn't year-round. Most in MN switch over in March/April. There's a reason PA is so sound at mat wrestling...

 

[NoVa Lion]

I think you got a lot of good answers as I don't think there is just one thing you can point to. Many stay in wrestling as coaches at every level after their college or high school days of wrestling are over and that to me, is the biggest factor.

 

[RoarLions1]

(I believe at one point there were 21).

Here's PA Colleges/Universities that once upon a time had teams, maybe not all were D! full-time, but show up in the record books...
Duquesne, East Stroudsburg, Gettysburg, Haverford, Kutztown, Lafayette, Lycoming, Millersville, Moravian, Shippensburg, Slippery Rock, Temple, Ursinus, Waynesburg, West Chester, Wilkes.

I'm with NoVa...there is no one thing. And as far as the relationship between colleges and wrestling is a chicken/egg thing for me. The idea that the number of colleges/universities that are D1 programs somehow drives High School wrestling seems backwards to me. I believe there are the number of college programs BECAUSE of High School wrestling in PA.

 

[RoarLions1]

Here's an interesting article...

http://triblive.com/sports/otherlocal/5376545-74/wrestling-pennsylvania-ncaa

"The pat answer goes something like this: Pennsylvanians are shot-and-a-beer, corner-bar, blue-collar people."

 

[Callthestall]

I think the trickle down effect is what separates certain areas and states from others.
Just in District 11 the youth programs at the traditional powers are being coached by some district champs and state place winners. A lot of high schools within our state don't have coaches with that type of resume. That's why the traditional powers stay good.
Go to an Easton /Nazareth match and look at how many young boys are in the gym. Sure, some have brothers wrestling but most are there with their father or grandfather who also wrestled and have the passion of the sport. That passion comes from it being such an individual commitment to be good.

 

[bwifan]

Here's PA Colleges/Universities that once upon a time had teams, maybe not all were D! full-time, but show up in the record books...
Duquesne, East Stroudsburg, Gettysburg, Haverford, Kutztown, Lafayette, Lycoming, Millersville, Moravian, Shippensburg, Slippery Rock, Temple, Ursinus, Waynesburg, West Chester, Wilkes.

I'm with NoVa...there is no one thing. And as far as the relationship between colleges and wrestling is a chicken/egg thing for me. The idea that the number of colleges/universities that are D1 programs somehow drives High School wrestling seems backwards to me. I believe there are the number of college programs BECAUSE of High School wrestling in PA.

Also Delaware Valley University is a stout D3 program. Growing up in Doylestown they are always on the national stage and wrestle the larger schools in the state as well. It's amazing how good the D3 Pa. colleges and university's are as well in the PA. Just shows the depth and talent of kids in the state.

 

[RoarLions1]

Also Delaware Valley University is a stout D3 program. Growing up in Doylestown they are always on the national stage and wrestle the larger schools in the state as well. It's amazing how good the D3 Pa. colleges and university's are as well in the PA. Just shows the depth and talent of kids in the state.

Near and dear to my heart. Daughter #2 is a graduate of "Del Val", and Mrs. Roar is from Doylestown...still lots of relatives there, we were just down for a visit.

 

[Just another PSU Fan]

I recall only having 2 sports for the winter season growing up, hoops and wrestling, you did one or the other

40-50 kids at YMCA practices, full Jr High and JV teams ... that's what helps PA dominate!

 

[matter7172]

Here's PA Colleges/Universities that once upon a time had teams, maybe not all were D! full-time, but show up in the record books...
Duquesne, East Stroudsburg, Gettysburg, Haverford, Kutztown, Lafayette, Lycoming, Millersville, Moravian, Shippensburg, Slippery Rock, Temple, Ursinus, Waynesburg, West Chester, Wilkes.

Gettysburg and Ursinus are still wrestling in the Centennial Conference, along with three other teams (Muhlenberg, Johns Hopkins and McDaniel) that were in the MAC with them, as well as Merchant Marine Academy, Stevens Tech and Washington and Lee.

Wilkes and Lycoming are still in the old MAC, which is down to 5 teams, if I read the website correctly. When I wrestled, there were around 20 teams in the MAC if my memory serves me well.

Temple has revived wrestling at the club level.

East Stroudsburg still wrestles, as does Millersville and Slippery Rock.

Here is a list of PA colleges/universities that have wrestling team in the NCAA.

http://www.ncsasports.org/athletic-scholarships/wrestling/pennsylvania/lafayette-college

 

[razorsedgeCE]

From what I remember reading, it sounded like many wrestler folkstyle year-round. Which, that helps. I can think of maybe one or two clubs that do that in MN, and it isn't year-round. Most in MN switch over in March/April. There's a reason PA is so sound at mat wrestling...

Very true, great points, thanks!!!

 

[crablegs1]

I’d start with participation. It snowballs... a boys grandfather wrestled, his dad wrestled now he wrestles. So let’s thank the dads out there for getting their sons interested. Next I’d mention coaching. From the time our boys start wrestling, the coaching they get in this state is superb...from elementary all the way through high school. Then throw in the coaching they are getting from the abundance of clubs and you can’t help but produce solid wrestlers. And remember, with so many good wrestlers everywhere, no shortage of having workout partners to help make them even better.

Aside from those two things, I’m not sure we are any different than most other states. I do think our boys are hard nosed with a workman like attitude. I attribute it to good parenting. The effort and hard work they are putting into the farms or other jobs rubs off when its time to wrestle.

Well done with this post. As an outsider, this is exactly where I'd put it.

Participation X Population = success.

Iowa likely has a similar history of wrestling throughout generations, and therefore good participation rates, but simply doesn't have the population.

Then, having all the D1 colleges really helps as well, but agree with Roar, that the high school participation came first. Now it is just a great cycle for the state. Lots of D1 wrestlers are graduating in PA every year, and if a few of them stay around and coach, that really helps develop the next generation.

 

[dropster45]

Interesting that the one factor that wasn't listed here until just now, and one that probably would be if you were to ask out of state wrestling folk about PA wrestling - participation rates. They would likely (erroneously) say that PA dominates because there are more kids who wrestle, but the numbers tell a different story. We could put up another "High School participants (NWCA) vs. D1 AA's" spreadsheet to show this - not needed here for us. In fact, It's not the participant numbers, it's cultural and "shared knowledge" based. That shared knowledge comes from the Zain, Cenzo, Ruth, Mega types...all those guys going back to their HS's and working camps to spread that information, both technical and philosophical. Multiply that by 11 D1 colleges, and that's the biggest reason PA succeeds.

 

[dropster45]

Another thing that is not listed, is genetic factors.
As PA is not an isolated island, didn't have any sort of extreme environmental conditions (within the last 500 years) that would have caused specified natural selection, and given the large sample sizes for each comparable state we are looking at, we can say that the gene pool of wrestlers is very much like the other states, no better, no worse.

 

[RoarLions1]

Imo, we’ve not yet answered the question.

Participation is a choice, so it’s not the answer. Why participate? In other words, what draws kids to wrestling? And why Pennsylvania?

Whatever the answer, it started long ago, and just perpetuated into what it is today. As the article above states…is it because PA is mostly blue-collar? How about individuals that were responsible, are there any that can be named that played a significant part?

More questions than answers from me.

Stats to follow...Is it a numbers game?

 

[RoarLions1]

Is state wrestling success a numbers game? I think yes...to some degree.

California, Texas and Florida are the three most populous states, yet don't dominate the High School rankings, or (later in their careers) NCAA performance.

Here's the top schools, normalizing the data by state populations and # of High School wrestlers. Still imperfect, as some states have a much higher retirement-age population, among other demographic differences between states, but at least it's a start. The data below covers 2010 through 2017 NCAA's.

Fair warning...I've removed states from the data below (SD, ID, VT, DE among them), as they had one or two successful wrestlers (ie. the "Vermonster"), and their low populations skewed their data.

Qualifiers per Million in Population
IA 4.41
PA 4.20
NJ 2.93
OH 2.69
MN 1.73

AA's per Million in Population
IA 1.67
PA .93
OH .73
MN .72
NJ .58

Qualifiers per Thousand High School Wrestlers
PA 5.49
OH 2.68
NJ 2.62
IA 2.01
OK 1.79

AA's per Thousand High School Wrestlers
PA 1.22
IA .76
OH .72
OK .58
NJ .52

 

[dropster45]

Roar, but look at the # of HS participants per state data. That shows PA to NOT have any real participation advantage based on that. In fact there are some states with more participants who can't match PAs AA, Qualifier, etc performance. It's much more than participation at play here.

 

[tikk10]

I'm from NY but it's easy to see that the culture is different in PA, and the culture is responsible for opportunities at the earliest levels, which is responsible for enlarging the pool of fundamentally sound kids entering high school, which I think is the most significant factor to why region x is better than region y.

I played soccer in grade school and so did everyone else around me (lots of baseball and lacrosse on LI as well)--no one that I knew wrestled earlier than, say, 7th grade. When I (and most others) started wrestling in 9th grade it took two years of mistakes and pain before I got the feel of where my hips should be at all times and so on, which leaves only two years to excel. By the time I left I was pretty good but I would've been significantly better if I'd had a grade school head start.

Further to the cultural point, culture is self-perpetuating in that your family and friends encourage, urge, reinforce your drive because they participated in the same sport. Wrestling families can all talk about the sport in a sort of shorthand, whereas there's something of a learning curve on the family side if the kid comes to a sport that's new to everyone else.

Similar to hockey, a region's superiority has everything to do with access and opportunity at the earliest ages. Most NHLers grew up playing on ponds in cold-weather cities against good competition b/c the pool of kids was large enough. PA isn't all that different, offering kids the means, opportunity, and critical mass of competition to not just lay down the fundamentals but excel.

And because there are plenty of PA colleges that offer wrestling (I'm guessing more than any other state), there are numerous opportunities to stay in-state and wrestle after high school, bolstering the culture just like Texas' relationship to football.

I see some trying to answer the deeper question of why that culture took hold and thrived and I'm not sure "blue collar" answers much because it's easy to point to blue collar cities without a wrestling culture (e.g., why not around West Virginia coal mining towns?). I'd bet regional ethnic demographics might get you closer to an answer, that is, trying to square wrestling's popularity in certain PA towns during certain formative time periods. I know there are many pockets of Polish and eastern Europeans in PA, places where wrestling was already popular.

Per the 2000 US census, here's a list of the US states with the largest numbers of self-reported Poles and Americans of Polish ancestry:
New York (986,141)
Illinois (932,996)
Michigan (854,844)
Pennsylvania (824,146)
New Jersey (576,473)
Wisconsin (497,726)
California (491,325)
Ohio (433,016)

Not that the answer to the question is as simple as "Poles in Pennsylvania," but I think regional ethnicity and acceptability of/familiarity with wrestling among certain segment of US immigrants has a lot to do with why wrestling took hold in PA.

 

[dropster45]

I too suspected that it had something to do with the # of telephone poles in Pennsylvania - they are everywhere! Pierogies too...

 

[NoVa Lion]

Roar, but look at the # of HS participants per state data. That shows PA to NOT have any real participation advantage based on that. In fact there are some states with more participants who can't match PAs AA, Qualifier, etc performance. It's much more than participation at play here.

I think you missed Roar's point. He didn't say participation was the answer, just a factor. If it was the answer then CA would be leading the way along with FL & TX.

 

[dicemen99]

While I think the HS culture and participation is a big factor now, with the chicken and the egg question I lean towards the amount of college programs in the state. There was a time when PA was not as dominant depthwise in HS wrestling and amount of college programs in the state has been a huge factor in the the last few decades. Simply put, a large percentage of people put down roots where they go to college and these guys get involved in wrestling at the HS and lower levels.

I look at our local program and the HS coach was a multiple NQ, the head assistant was an AA, another assistant was a multiple NQ, and the other assistant wrestled D1. Our community feeder program is led by a 2x ACC champ, with the lead technician a 4 year D1 starter and multiple other college wrestlers in the room helping out rooms that have 5 year olds up to 14. He took the program over from a 2x NQ who served as the head coach at a D1 program for 2 years. We have a lot of kids in the program and more than a few hit the HS room in 9th grade with very advanced skills where they are well taken care of by the HS staff. Although this is not the average program in the state, it is not an uncommon one and there are dozens of programs on equal footing around the state. In addition, there are many clubs available outside the community programs for wrestlers to take advantage of. The amount of outside clubs available is astounding compared to a few decades ago and this boom is directly related to the amount of highly accomplished wrestlers located in the state who have decided to stay involved in wrestling and make some money while doing so.

 

[dropster45]

I think you missed Roar's point. He didn't say participation was the answer, just a factor. If it was the answer then CA would be leading the way along with FL & TX.

In that case, I'm agreeing with him. I was haphazardly trying to say the same thing in regard to the "large wrestling participant" states. California is the prime example with ~ 2.5x as many high school wrestlers as PA, yet a fraction of the AA's every year...and this has been happening for decades.
How many D1 programs does CA have in order to trickle that down to the next gen?
I don't think overall population numbers (as opposed to HS paricipant #'s) per state are that relevant In the discussion. I think it's more accurate to look at HS wrestling participation #'S and compare that to their college success - National Qualifiers, AA's are some metrics that can be used.
Overall State population has little impact, and Texas makes that point well.

 

[dropster45]

Ok, here's a graph with "HS wrestling participants per state":

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5067286-you-do-the-math-high-school-participation-numbers

As you can see, actual state performance is only loosely correlated with the total number of wrestling participants per state. I put this out there to quash the common fallacy that PA is superior because it has more people living here. Anyone who actually lives in PA can tell you that the average Joe does not care about the sport that much. Would rather watch the Eagles, 76ers, Flyers...

 

[tomsc]

Ok, here's a graph with "HS wrestling participants per state":

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5067286-you-do-the-math-high-school-participation-numbers

As you can see, actual state performance is only loosely correlated with the total number of wrestling participants per state. I put this out there to quash the common fallacy that PA is superior because it has more people living here. Anyone who actually lives in PA can tell you that the average Joe does not care about the sport that much. Would rather watch the Eagles, 76ers, Flyers...

Dropster--I think your statement about the average guy in PA not caring a lot about wrestling depends on where you live. Since you mentioned all Phila professional teams, I'm guessing your experience is more in the Phila area. For a long team (maybe still, not sure) the Phila school system didn't have wrestling--as opposed to Pittsburgh. I grew up in State College, and back in the 60's we would get more people to a wrestling match (packed for about every match) than to a basketball game. For the most part, PA has taken its wrestling very seriously, at least it did in the past (can't speak for the present).

 

[NoVa Lion]

Dropster--I think your statement about the average guy in PA not caring a lot about wrestling depends on where you live. Since you mentioned all Phila professional teams, I'm guessing your experience is more in the Phila area. For a long team (maybe still, not sure) the Phila school system didn't have wrestling--as opposed to Pittsburgh. I grew up in State College, and back in the 60's we would get more people to a wrestling match (packed for about every match) than to a basketball game. For the most part, PA has taken its wrestling very seriously, at least it did in the past (can't speak for the present).

Ditto. Grew up in SC 4 years after tomsc. We had a very good bball team (Parkhill era) and a good (but not as good as bball) wrestling team, but there were always more people at home wrestling duals than there were at bball games.

 

[RoarLions1]

Roar, but look at the # of HS participants per state data. That shows PA to NOT have any real participation advantage based on that. In fact there are some states with more participants who can't match PAs AA, Qualifier, etc performance. It's much more than participation at play here.

Not sure where you got that. Sounds like you now understand the data.

For all, here's more info...

Nebraska has the highest number of High School Wrestlers per Population, and it's not close. This pro-rated data shows these states as the highest number of wrestlers, given their population...in order, highest to lowest, top-10...
Nebraska
Iowa
Wyoming
Alaska
Kansas
South Dakota
Idaho
Montana
Minnesota
Wisconsin

 

[dropster45]

Ditto. Grew up in SC 4 years after tomsc. We had a very good bball team (Parkhill era) and a good (but not as good as bball) wrestling team, but there were always more people at home wrestling duals than there were at bball games.

I believe you are looking at a specific example that is not necessarily representative of the norm. it may be in that area, but I don't think that carries thruout the state.

 

[dropster45]

Not sure where you got that. Sounds like you now understand the data.

For all, here's more info...

Nebraska has the highest number of High School Wrestlers per Population, and it's not close. This pro-rated data shows these states as the highest number of wrestlers, given their population...in order, highest to lowest, top-10...
Nebraska
Iowa
Wyoming
Alaska
Kansas
South Dakota
Idaho
Montana
Minnesota
Wisconsin

My understanding hasn't changed. I still feel the same way I did about it 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 days, 5 years ago...

 

[dicemen99]

Not sure where you got that. Sounds like you now understand the data.

For all, here's more info...

Nebraska has the highest number of High School Wrestlers per Population, and it's not close. This pro-rated data shows these states as the highest number of wrestlers, given their population...in order, highest to lowest, top-10...
Nebraska
Iowa
Wyoming
Alaska
Kansas
South Dakota
Idaho
Montana
Minnesota
Wisconsin

Just a comment here, and just to illustrate how difficult it is to really quantify things by looking at a statistic or two. On the surface you might look at the above list and use it as a basis to determine how popular wrestling is or how ingrained it is in that states culture.
But then you notice that most all of these states are not densely populated and likely made up of more high schools with smaller male populations than lets say PA. Students at smaller high schools are much more likely to participate in multiple sports and participation rates should be higher.
Not taking the time to look up if what I just stated is backed up by the numbers but would be surprised if they didn't.

 

[tikk10]

Just a comment here, and just to illustrate how difficult it is to really quantify things by looking at a statistic or two. On the surface you might look at the above list and use it as a basis to determine how popular wrestling is or how ingrained it is in that states culture.
But then you notice that most all of these states are not densely populated and likely made up of more high schools with smaller male populations than lets say PA. Students at smaller high schools are much more likely to participate in multiple sports and participation rates should be higher.
Not taking the time to look up if what I just stated is backed up by the numbers but would be surprised if they didn't.

I was also going to mention population density as being a potential factor that favored PA and why PA to CA comparisons in particular aren't helpful. Because the factors likely to improve wrestlers in terms of a regional group would include those factors which increase consistent and prolonged exposure to high level competition. Iron sharpens iron on a broad demographic scale. Traveling from one end of PA to another is feasible, but not so in CA. The best in PA have numerous chances to meet throughout a season.

 

[sirhcdralla]

I would just like to point out one example of why. Look at where Zain graduated from. Benton, one of the smaller schools in PA but the Hughes brothers also wrestled for and coached and before coaching their father coached for a long time ( I wrestled for the father). They also hold camps which for a little farm town to have a multiple D1 champ, hodge trophy winner and cadet world champ, another D1 national champ and another D1 AA teaching all of these kids from district 4 and some from District 2 just makes the region stronger overall and I can tell you kids from the area grow up wanting to be the next Hughes brother or Zain Retherford from the time they can understand what they are watching.

 

[Sullivan]

Districts 1 & 12 distort the PA wrestling data. Relative to population, this part of the state underperforms other less populated areas.

With that being said, Districts 1 & 12 often excel with other sports.

 

[AgSurfer]

I think that you guys are being a little too analytical about this. The primary reason why PA is the best is because we are better than everyone else!

 

[Dogwelder]

I think that you guys are being a little too analytical about this. The primary reason why PA is the best is because we are better than everyone else!

Also, Mama says Pennsylvanians are ornery on account of they got all them teeth and no toothbrush.