What Happened to our WRs?

[NittanyIllinois]

It’s not like Penn State has ever been WRU. In good years we have one really good receiver….we never have had the stable that many other teams have. Receivers have never lined up to come to PSU.

True, but the game is changing/has changed. Look at how scouting services rank kids, and look at NFL drafts. Everybody values the WR position more than ever, and WRs typically play a bigger role in success than RBs. Of course there are exceptions -- like last year's Michigan. But the game is becoming a WR-dominated game on offense.

A program of Penn State's caliber has absolutely no excuse to not have stud WRs. It wasn't long ago that we had Godwin, Hamilton, Hamler, and Dotson in a 5-year period. What changed?

 

[tboyer]

KLS - this year: 40 receptions, 8 TD's, average 19 yards a catch, 19 career TD's, 2482 career yards.

Wallace - this year: 31 receptions, 3 TD's, 5 career TD's, 1034 career yards.

Imagine if we had KLS back this year with Allar. A couple years back when we defeated Auburn, their Head Coach fired his WR Coach the next day or so because their WR's were not getting separation. Their 2025 Class has one of the best WR recruiting in the country with a horrible record this year.

What the hell is JF doing putting up with this kind of piss poor production from this WR group? He fires OC but doesn't even address the horrible development of our WR's. We are not going anywhere in the playoffs with this group of WR's, not going to happen.

I gather there were issues with KLS that were not his ability to play football but his ability to be a teammate and a leader. The reason he's no longer at PSU is not because PSU didn't appreciate him as a player. Overall team leadership and morale is important and when a senior isn't contributing to that in a positive way, that's a problem. This team has good chemistry and you saw it in the way they played the week after the crushing loss to tOSU.

 

[tboyer]

True, but the game is changing/has changed. Look at how scouting services rank kids, and look at NFL drafts. Everybody values the WR position more than ever, and WRs typically play a bigger role in success than RBs. Of course there are exceptions -- like last year's Michigan. But the game is becoming a WR-dominated game on offense.

A program of Penn State's caliber has absolutely no excuse to not have stud WRs. It wasn't long ago that we had Godwin, Hamilton, Hamler, and Dotson in a 5-year period. What changed?

Looks to me like the inflection point was when Josh Gattis didn't get the OC job and left. It left a hole in wideout coaching and recruiting that Franklin's been trying to fill ever sense. Gattis was due for a promotion and it wasn't going to be at PSU, and I can't blame Franklin for thinking Gattis wasn't ready to be an OC at that point in his career. He wasn't exactly a hit at OC at Michigan a number of years later.

 

[africamurphy]

A couple things to keep in mind.

1) PSU is really just 1 player (a true No. 1) away from having a solid wideout group. Wallace, Evans, Clifford and Fleming are all good players and have improved a lot this year. I think Wallace especially is better than people give him credit for. Clifford has developed into a very good possession receiver.
2) Statistically the wides look worse than they are because Warren and the running backs are so good in the passing game they consume a lot of targets. And Warren is often schemed as the No. 1 option so he'll get the ball even if Wallace is wide open. A lot of plays Wallace is just a decoy and the other wides are blockers.
3) Allar is ultra-careful with the ball and doesn't risk a throw to the wides if they don't have 2 yards of separation. Against 90% of the teams on PSU's schedule that works fine because PSU has other offensive options. But against top competition it bites them. If you look at an NFL game or a game between top 5 football teams, a lot of times throws are being made to extremely tight windows or back-shoulder throws with minimal separation. PSU doesn't even try -- and that's not really the wideouts' fault. Allar doesn't trust the wides enough and that's partly because they haven't developed the trust on the field.

Yes to 1 and 3. No to 2.

It makes sense as a theory but not in reality. You throw to who’s open. So far only Ohio State has been able to shut down Warren and the backs when giving the minimal attention to WRs.

 

[tboyer]

Yes to 1 and 3. No to 2.

It makes sense as a theory but not in reality. You throw to who’s open. So far only Ohio State has been able to shut down Warren and the backs when giving the minimal attention to WRs.

It's true PSU doesn't have a wideout who can beat an Ohio State corner in single coverage.

But apart from Ohio State, I've seen PSU wideouts wide open plenty of times but Allar is locked in on Warren. It's probably the play design, maybe not Allar's choice, but at least a few times I've seen Wallace lonely in the endzone, his hair turning gray while the throw goes to Warren underneath.

I'm just saying in some ways the wideout production is a chicken-or-the-egg kind of thing. PSU could be targeting the wideouts more against lesser opponents and maybe that would have given them more confidence to target them when they played tOSU and Warren was consistently double covered. You reap what you sow.

I don't know how good Minnesota is but it does appear they have a good secondary. They're going to need to call plays for the wideouts and stretch the secondary or it could be a long day offensively.

 

[lazydave841]

Saunders in particular was a big time recruit out of Ohio

The telling thing there was the Buckeyes offered, but only as a DB. Saunders was a major camp kid too, which could have over-inflated his ranking. He also was a QB his senior year. Similar with Evans, who only played QB for his HS. It means you have to develop them more before getting them.

Take Jeremiah Smith. He was already a stud and would probably be a 2nd round draft pick at worst if he could declare this April. Most likely, he'd be a 1st on physical attributes alone. I'm sure he's being developed, but the kid was already a great WR when he showed up.

 

[lazydave841]

I don't know how good Minnesota is but it does appear they have a good secondary.

Washington had a highly rated pass defense as well, but I think a lot of that is the opponents you play. USC is probably the best passing team they have faced by a large margin.

I think they possibly are better at producing turnovers than Washington was, but their schedule has lacked any real strong passing teams.

 

[WaffleShopper]

Washington had a highly rated pass defense as well, but I think a lot of that is the opponents you play. USC is probably the best passing team they have faced by a large margin.

I think they possibly are better at producing turnovers than Washington was, but their schedule has lacked any real strong passing teams.

As of today, Washington is #7 in the country in Team Passing Efficiency Defense and Minnesota is #10. Who knows how meaningful that is though. We only threw for 210 yards against Washington but that was mostly because we were up big and were running the ball at will. Minnesota's last game they gave up 240 yards and 3 passing TDs to big ten powerhouse Rutgers.

 

[GregInPitt]

You're probably right about Allar. Not sure what you're implying on your second point? We never will get or have a strong WR? Really negative, defeatist take.

More like PSU won't ever attract one of the top portal WR's. Top WR's will only go for big portal $ and so far PSU has not dished out enough $ to get the very top portal players.

 

[Gymnast]

KLS stats may not be great at Auburn, since I haven't looked closely, but they are significantly better than any of our WR's this year. I did note that he had some "lights out" games this year. IIRC, he had 6 catches with a TD Saturday. That's more than our entire team did, other than Warren.

Mind boggling than JF puts up with this lack of development. He stated that5 Saturday was one of the best overall performances this year. Hard to believe no one asked about the pathetic WR play or lack thereof. How many OC did he let go, yet keeps this lack-luster WR Coach.

KLS stats are waaaaay better than any other WR we have. He was pissed about NIL money. But, the truth is, that was only part of it. He developed a chip on his shoulder over it, followed by a bad attitude that spilled over to the other WRs.

 

[LMTLION]

Looked at the stats for 2021 and 2022 OSU games. Dotson and Washington were both over 100 yards in 2021 and Washington was well over 100 in 2022. What a drop off in such a short time period. Is it the wr coach or is it the qb?

 

[tboyer]

As of today, Washington is #7 in the country in Team Passing Efficiency Defense and Minnesota is #10. Who knows how meaningful that is though. We only threw for 210 yards against Washington but that was mostly because we were up big and were running the ball at will. Minnesota's last game they gave up 240 yards and 3 passing TDs to big ten powerhouse Rutgers.

That's a good point. Washington probably has a high ranking against the pass only because they're really bad against the run, so teams run on them.

Wouldn't it be nice if Saturday was a good day for the maligned PSU wideouts?

 

[SR108]

Not really a criticism, but the OC is obsessed with the tight end. Ride what works till it doesn’t work.

 

[Obliviax]

Not really a criticism, but the OC is obsessed with the tight end. Ride what works till it doesn’t work.

I don't know what is going on with Fleming but our other WRs seem to get pushed around and off their routes. PSU uses the formation where we have two slots at a guy on the LOS in a V formation. Two of those are typically Warren and Singleton. The third is often a WR or another TE. So when you look at it, you have

• 6-6 261 lb Warren
• 6-0 226 LB Singleton who runs a 4-4 40
• 6-4 252 LB Dinkins

The you have 252 lb Allar and 5-11 220 lb Allen in the backfield. Out of this formation, you can run as you have all very good blockers and runners. You can also throw as Singleton and Warren are excellent receivers. You can always mix in a WR if you want to stretch the D. You can have this V in close to the OT or push them out to spread the field.

Quite a challenge defending that offense.

 

[ryoder1]

Not really a criticism, but the OC is obsessed with the tight end. Ride what works till it doesn’t work.

With an opponent like Minny just ride Warren until they show they can stop him. It would be nice if a WR stepped up but we can't and we won't force it to the WRs. At this point it is crunch time and you go with who brought you to the dance.

 

[fkkkjm]

50 post thread and not one comment about the wide receiver coach. Let’s not forget that we have had several different coaches in the wide receiver room over Franklin‘s tenure. Hagans hasn’t done squat since he got here.

 

[lazydave841]

50 post thread and not one comment about the wide receiver coach. Let’s not forget that we have had several different coaches in the wide receiver room over Franklin‘s tenure. Hagans hasn’t done squat since he got here.

5 below from the thread.

That and making a change at WR coach

How many OC did he let go, yet keeps this lack-luster WR Coach.

Hagans just got here a year ago.

new WR coach whatever

Hogans wasn’t anything at Virginia why is he a coach here? Ask jimmy

 

[voltz99]

KLS stats may not be great at Auburn, since I haven't looked closely, but they are significantly better than any of our WR's this year. I did note that he had some "lights out" games this year. IIRC, he had 6 catches with a TD Saturday. That's more than our entire team did, other than Warren.

Mind boggling than JF puts up with this lack of development. He stated that5 Saturday was one of the best overall performances this year. Hard to believe no one asked about the pathetic WR play or lack thereof. How many OC did he let go, yet keeps this lack-luster WR Coach.

He has already replaced the wr coach and his recruits are only freshman.

You were probably crying about Phil trautwein a few years ago.

 

[voltz99]

Prior to the past two seasons, we were producing more NFL WR talent over the prior 8-10 years than we ever had. It has been very strange since Dotson and Washington left. I think even if we had one of those two this season, we beat OSU. I could not imagine this team with Dotson and Warren paired up! We’d be unstoppable.

So we are only one high end wr away?

 

[voltz99]

Penn State’s WR talent evaluations have led to some underwhelming results via the portal.

Tinsley
McClain
Cephas
Fleming

None of these guys were considered high impact difference makers.

If you include poor WR recruiting from high schools, it should not be a surprise Penn State’s WR room is so bad.

They also were not at the top of our board.

If he first pick goes somewhere else should psu take nobody?

 

[voltz99]

Purdue got trounced by 39 points so not really important that their WRs got open on some plays. It was woodshed game and we substituted freely. I did not like the drops by young WRs but better to learn now.

I think OSU is just that good in terms of speed and athleticism in secondary. We could not run the ball either so not just WRs. When you can't run then it gets harder to pass, especially against elite teams. We got ball inside 5 twice. OSU player made insane clutch play/INT that just seem to happen every game against them. Not giving the ball to Warren in RZ was acknowledged as dumb.

I agree that WR recruiting is really bad but I also know that PSU's success and AK's offensive mind will attract some major talent. It will come. Next year will be completely different team with Beau (unless he transfers). We shall see.

Do you even follow the wr recruiting? It actually looks good going forward.

 

[voltz99]

KLS stats may not be great at Auburn, since I haven't looked closely, but they are significantly better than any of our WR's this year. I did note that he had some "lights out" games this year. IIRC, he had 6 catches with a TD Saturday. That's more than our entire team did, other than Warren.

Mind boggling than JF puts up with this lack of development. He stated that5 Saturday was one of the best overall performances this year. Hard to believe no one asked about the pathetic WR play or lack thereof. How many OC did he let go, yet keeps this lack-luster WR Coach.

How is their team doing?

 

[ryoder1]

He has already replaced the wr coach and his recruits are only freshman.

You were probably crying about Phil trautwein a few years ago.

Signed the one guy in the stadium cheering for Penn State that thought the 3 calls up the middle on our final series vs OSU were excellent. Well done coaches.

 

[voltz99]

Signed the one guy in the stadium cheering for Penn State that thought the 3 calls up the middle on our final series vs OSU were excellent. Well done coaches.

I never said that.

Funny thing is you did not have a problem with the plays. You wanted the same plays except your complaint was they did not handoff to warren. Look up your quote.

 

[LMTLION]

So we are only one high end wr away?

Yes! We are a Dotson level wr away from being #1.

 

[GregInPitt]

Penn State’s WR talent evaluations have led to some underwhelming results via the portal.

Tinsley
McClain
Cephas
Fleming

None of these guys were considered high impact difference makers.

If you include poor WR recruiting from high schools, it should not be a surprise Penn State’s WR room is so bad.

It seems that PSU just hasn't put the $ out there to attract top position portal players.

Tinsley was probably the most productive of the PSU portal WR's. McClain seemed like the most talented but for whatever reason (practice habits, effort, .....) just couldn't produce on the field.

 

[Delcolion915]

Nick Singleton, from now on, needs to be used as a de facto wide receiver. Last week's production was, frankly, embarrassing, considering it was Purdue. This week is going to be a big problem if they only catch 3 passes.

 

[tboyer]

Looked at the stats for 2021 and 2022 OSU games. Dotson and Washington were both over 100 yards in 2021 and Washington was well over 100 in 2022. What a drop off in such a short time period. Is it the wr coach or is it the qb?

PSU had some good fortune with Hamler, Dotson and Washington. Hamler lacked the size to be a top wideout recruit, Washington lacked the top end speed and Dotson lacked size and speed. All were awesome college players and good enough to make the NFL but they weren't the kind of wideouts top teams recruit.

Recruits absolutely look at the program track record. PSU has been an NFL pipeline for TEs and linebackers and running backs for a long time. Increasingly becoming a pipeline for OL and safeties -- and you see the effect on recruiting. Hagans has to somehow persuade a top tier wideout that starting at PSU is better than being #6 on the depth chart at Ohio State or Alabama. That is not easy.

 

[LMTLION]

PSU had some good fortune with Hamler, Dotson and Washington. Hamler lacked the size to be a top wideout recruit, Washington lacked the top end speed and Dotson lacked size and speed. All were awesome college players and good enough to make the NFL but they weren't the kind of wideouts top teams recruit.

Recruits absolutely look at the program track record. PSU has been an NFL pipeline for TEs and linebackers and running backs for a long time. Increasingly becoming a pipeline for OL and safeties -- and you see the effect on recruiting. Hagans has to somehow persuade a top tier wideout that starting at PSU is better than being #6 on the depth chart at Ohio State or Alabama. That is not easy.

I understand the point you are making, but disagree on Dotson. He was a WR1 level player for all but a few schools in cfb. And he ran a 4.43 40 at the combine.

 

[ryoder1]

I never said that.

Funny thing is you did not have a problem with the plays. You wanted the same plays except your complaint was they did not handoff to warren. Look up your quote.

So it is not the same play if another guy gets the ball.

 

[ryoder1]

Nick Singleton, from now on, needs to be used as a de facto wide receiver. Last week's production was, frankly, embarrassing, considering it was Purdue. This week is going to be a big problem if they only catch 3 passes.

We will win with a big day or just a day in the office for Warren a couple well timed passes to Singleton and a run game. Don't need much of anything from the WRs.

 

[PSU20]

How is their team doing?

Not talking about the team my man, talking about the piss poor WR on this team. KLS has smoked each and everyone of our WR's. Change the subject again, as usual. I'm well aware of Auburn's record, take a look at their recruiting class and the WR's coming in.

 

[PSU20]

He has already replaced the wr coach and his recruits are only freshman.

You were probably crying about Phil trautwein a few years ago.

I already mentioned he had replaced the WR coach; read the board before sounding off.....

 

[Delcolion915]

They had one job in the office season and they didn't do it. They got Fleming. And nothing else.

 

[GregInPitt]

Looked at the stats for 2021 and 2022 OSU games. Dotson and Washington were both over 100 yards in 2021 and Washington was well over 100 in 2022. What a drop off in such a short time period. Is it the wr coach or is it the qb?

Seems more like the fact that Dotson and Washington are no longer in Blue and White than the WR coach or the QB. Both are NFL WR's and it doesn't seem like there is a WR on the roster that will sniff the NFL, let along get picked in the NFL draft as Dotson and Washington were.

Seems it's that old saying, it's not the X's and the O's, it's the Jimmy's and the Joe's.......

 

[voltz99]

I already mentioned he had replaced the WR coach; read the board before sounding off.....

Did your plan work? Do you want to make the same move again?