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12 states have more opioid prescriptions than people.

The number of people on Metformin has gone way up, too, but diabetes and drug addiction are not much related. You seem to think we cannot solve the opioid epidemic without solving every problem in the entire history of medications. It is a common tactic of those who wish to see nothing done because it might cost someone some money: Universalize the problem.

"It is a common tactic of those who wish to see nothing done because it might cost someone some money: Universalize the problem."

I can't believe I'm talking to a grown man who can't tie heroin/opioid abuse to Antidepressants/Psychiatric drug use.

Yet they believe one can be cured with "jobs" or counseling and the other is as unrelated as diabetes.

I guess it's time for another LOL from you.

LdN
 
Doctor shopping is common. You see multiple doctors for the same condition. Get an prescription from your family doctor then go to your orthopedic doctor then another orthopedic doctor.
This sounds nuts. Im no expert on opioids or any drugs but it seems to me the scrip only explains half the puzzle. The other half is--aren't these controlled substances? Meaning, both the pharmacies and insurance companies are watching what they're buying and requiring ID? Trusting what I doubt to be true, I guess it'd be proof how resourceful addicts can be...

I'm not doubting the Opioid problem and wouldn't, but I doubt any statistic that has controlled substances (any, and not just opioids) exceeding the number of people in the entire jurisdiction. Sounds more like Stalin-era worker productivity figures.
 
This sounds nuts. Im no expert on opioids or any drugs but it seems to me the scrip only explains half the puzzle. The other half is--aren't these controlled substances? Meaning, both the pharmacies and insurance companies are watching what they're buying and requiring ID? Trusting what I doubt to be true, I guess it'd be proof how resourceful addicts can be...

I'm not doubting the Opioid problem and wouldn't, but I doubt any statistic that has controlled substances (any, and not just opioids) exceeding the number of people in the entire jurisdiction. Sounds more like Stalin-era worker productivity figures.

In any situation the money is in control.

There's a lot of money in writing these prescriptions because the doctors don't pay and the patients don't pay.

Noone in politics will fight it because they (both sides) have benefits in seeing it continue.

The situation we are in is not far off from A Scanner Darkly.

LdN
 
The databases help a lot now. They won't go away if Obamacare is (unlikely) gutted. The people with multiple scripts are professionals, and they knew how to game the system perfectly. Those of us on the medical side were slow to pick up on it initially, but even as we began to realize what was happening, without a database to look at there was no way to tell what was real and what wasn't. Today it's a different story. Unfortunately, a lot of these drugs can now be made in basement labs, and scripts aren't even necessary. In addition to that, a lot of them are coming from Mexico and India, as alluded to by other posters here.
 
They need to make opiod prescriptions very very very rare. It needs to almost be like morphine. Only and very rare cases.

Other than that, you get an extra strength tylanol or asprin. Just like the rest of the damn world.
 
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This sounds nuts. Im no expert on opioids or any drugs but it seems to me the scrip only explains half the puzzle. The other half is--aren't these controlled substances? Meaning, both the pharmacies and insurance companies are watching what they're buying and requiring ID? Trusting what I doubt to be true, I guess it'd be proof how resourceful addicts can be...

I'm not doubting the Opioid problem and wouldn't, but I doubt any statistic that has controlled substances (any, and not just opioids) exceeding the number of people in the entire jurisdiction. Sounds more like Stalin-era worker productivity figures.
So from recent experience of minor knee surgery....
Getting wheeled out of the same day surgery center, I had a script for hydrocodone in hand. Didn't ask for, just gave it to me.
Wife went to the pharmacy to fill it and my insurance rejected it because it was for too many pills. So....
Doctors are definitely over prescribing. Don't prescribe it automatically, tell me to take Tylenol and if that's not good enough we'll talk.
Apparently somebody is watching....the insurance company wouldn't let me fill the original script and the doc had to rewrite it for fewer pills.
 
Well, Gee, LdN, I just read a series of books on the roots of the opioid epidemic, and none of them said dick about anti-depressants. Have you got any info from a non-Scientologist which makes obvious connection that nobody else is making?
 
So from recent experience of minor knee surgery....
Getting wheeled out of the same day surgery center, I had a script for hydrocodone in hand. Didn't ask for, just gave it to me.
Wife went to the pharmacy to fill it and my insurance rejected it because it was for too many pills. So....
Doctors are definitely over prescribing. Don't prescribe it automatically, tell me to take Tylenol and if that's not good enough we'll talk.
Apparently somebody is watching....the insurance company wouldn't let me fill the original script and the doc had to rewrite it for fewer pills.
I've gotten them from my dentist from time to time, too. Look, I'm not Brett Favre. It is such bullsh!t.
 
Well, Gee, LdN, I just read a series of books on the roots of the opioid epidemic, and none of them said dick about anti-depressants. Have you got any info from a non-Scientologist which makes obvious connection that nobody else is making?

If they didn't say there's an issue with doctors over prescribing meds then the books are terrible.

I'm guessing they did and you're just lying.

LdN
 
If they didn't say there's an issue with doctors over prescribing meds then the books are terrible.

I'm guessing they did and you're just lying.

LdN
Over-prescribing opiates? Yes, that is a big part of the problem. Not so much Wellbutrin or Prozac.

Show me the non-scientologist research that lays opiate addiction at the feet of Wellbutrin and Prozac.
 
Over-prescribing opiates? Yes, that is a big part of the problem..

OK so progress.

So doctors are over prescribing meds.
That's one part of the epidemic.

Now let's move on. Why do people take Opioids and Heroin? Do they have pain in their joints that they take these drugs for?

Do young kids who get hooked on these drugs have massive amounts of physical pain we didn't as children?

LdN
 
OK so progress.

So doctors are over prescribing meds.
That's one part of the epidemic.

Now let's move on. Why do people take Opioids and Heroin? Do they have pain in their joints that they take these drugs for?

Do young kids who get hooked on these drugs have massive amounts of physical pain we didn't as children?

LdN
No, you skipped the part where you were going to show me some non-scientologist research which ties anti-depressants to opioid addiction.
 
No, you skipped the part where you were going to show me some non-scientologist research which ties anti-depressants to opioid addiction.

I already did. I guess you missed it.

This is where your bullheaded attitude gets you in trouble and makes you look foolish.

LdN
 
This sounds nuts. Im no expert on opioids or any drugs but it seems to me the scrip only explains half the puzzle. The other half is--aren't these controlled substances? Meaning, both the pharmacies and insurance companies are watching what they're buying and requiring ID? Trusting what I doubt to be true, I guess it'd be proof how resourceful addicts can be...

I'm not doubting the Opioid problem and wouldn't, but I doubt any statistic that has controlled substances (any, and not just opioids) exceeding the number of people in the entire jurisdiction. Sounds more like Stalin-era worker productivity figures.
Those stats are not really that useful. For example, CII narcos require monthly written refills, so for patients with legitimate chronic pain you are looking at 12 scripts per year. That is per med type and a high percentage of those people are on two types - one extended release and one immediate release for breakthrough pain. So just 1 terminal patient would have 24 scripts per year or more. Those stats did not provide this breakdown so interpretation is somewhat ambiguous.
 
Those stats are not really that useful. For example, CII narcos require monthly written refills, so for patients with legitimate chronic pain you are looking at 12 scripts per year. That is per med type and a high percentage of those people are on two types - one extended release and one immediate release for breakthrough pain. So just 1 terminal patient would have 24 scripts per year or more. Those stats did not provide this breakdown so interpretation is somewhat ambiguous.
And is that a big change over where we were before we started hosing down every person with a stiff neck with opiate pain meds? Or have those prescribing standards been in place for a long time and the only change is that they are being used a lot more.

The use of opioid pain medications tripled, in sheer number of doses, in about a 20 year period. From the Frontline piece I cited earlier:


Opioid prescriptions tripled over 20 years
One factor behind the surge in heroin and opioid use was the dramatic spike in the use of prescription painkillers.

In 1991, doctors wrote 76 million prescriptions. By 2011, that number had nearly tripled, to 219 million, according to a report from the National Institute on Drug Abuse. This rise was made all the more dangerous when drug cartels began flooding the United States with heroin, which was cheaper, more potent, and often easier to acquire than prescription pain meds. As the National Institute on Drug Abuse noted:

Mexican heroin production increased from an estimated 8 metric tons in 2005 to 50 metric tons in 2009 — more than a six-fold increase in just four years. Domination of the U.S. market by Mexican and Colombian heroin sources, along with technology transfer between these suppliers, has increased the availability of easily injectable, white powder heroin. In a recent survey of patients receiving treatment for opioid abuse, accessibility was one of the main factors identified in the decision to start using heroin.

As both heroin and prescription opioids became more common, so too did overdoses.
 
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Those stats are not really that useful. For example, CII narcos require monthly written refills, so for patients with legitimate chronic pain you are looking at 12 scripts per year. That is per med type and a high percentage of those people are on two types - one extended release and one immediate release for breakthrough pain. So just 1 terminal patient would have 24 scripts per year or more. Those stats did not provide this breakdown so interpretation is somewhat ambiguous.

Bingo. Thank you CRM114psu. I was going to follow up with a point about the stats and spin of the article. But I didn't because I don't want to diminish that this opiod issue is real.

I love PBS as a news provider and I appreciate news sources bringing this issue into the dialogue, but the article carried a bit more spin than I'd have expected. Still valuable for raising public consciousness.
 
And is that a big change over where we were before we started hosing down every person with a stiff neck with opiate pain meds? Or have those prescribing standards been in place for a long time and the only change is that they are being used a lot more.

The use of opioid pain medications tripled, in sheer number of doses, in about a 20 year period.
And people are living longer. The demographics have shifted due to baby boomer population transitioning into senior citizens. Those stats make no correlation to these facts. They should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
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And people are living longer. The demographics have shifted due to baby boomer population transitioning into senior citizens. Those stats make no correlation to these facts. They should be taken with a grain of salt.
Check this out. Another take on the same notion.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/dea-secretly-oks-killer-quantities-of-oxy-and-morphine

In 1993, the DEA allowed pharmaceutical companies to manufacture 3,520 kilograms of oxycodone. In 2015, the DEA authorized production of 137,500 kilograms of oxycodone. That’s a 39-fold increase in 22 years, the equivalent of turning two Buicks into four Boeing 737s. Either Americans are in 39 times more pain than we were 20 years ago, or something else is wrong.
dea-approved1_720_vnsz6v.jpg

dea-approved2_720_gagutn.jpg
 
I do not recall reading that we have a 39x higher number of citizens or old citizens. We are hosing ourselves down with Opiates.
 
v
Not doing it will cost even more. It's the kind of intractable problem that gives you nightmares.

It's easy to say, well those people are different from me and my kids. It's not true. I've met some shattered parents.

The problem certainly isn't limited to certain communities or certain ethnic groups, but the percentage of abuse is much higher in some areas than others.
 
How could that happen? Are some people getting multiple prescriptions for painkillers? Or are prescriptions being written for phantom patients?


Drug company profits come first. They have to keep increasing sales to keep increasing profits.
 
I don't understand why there isn't a database to track prescriptions for patients. I know lots of older people who take drug cocktails and have been for years because the doctor told them so. Modern medicine is a mess. Compound that by so many people that think everything is fixed with a pill. Behavioral psychologists are shocked at parents who drop off their kids and say 'fix him'. If you DON"T give the kid a pill, they drop you and go to the next person who will.


Sigh.

Drug company profits come first. They have to keep increasing sales to keep increasing profits.
 
Here are the 12 states:
Alabama: 142.9 per 100 people
  • Tennessee: 142.8
  • West Virginia: 137.6
  • Kentucky: 128.4
  • Oklahoma: 127.8
  • Mississippi: 120.3
  • Louisiana: 118
  • Arkansas: 115.8
  • Indiana: 109.1
  • Michigan: 107
  • South Carolina: 101.8
  • Ohio: 100.1
 
Check this out. Another take on the same notion.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/dea-secretly-oks-killer-quantities-of-oxy-and-morphine

In 1993, the DEA allowed pharmaceutical companies to manufacture 3,520 kilograms of oxycodone. In 2015, the DEA authorized production of 137,500 kilograms of oxycodone. That’s a 39-fold increase in 22 years, the equivalent of turning two Buicks into four Boeing 737s. Either Americans are in 39 times more pain than we were 20 years ago, or something else is wrong.
dea-approved1_720_vnsz6v.jpg

dea-approved2_720_gagutn.jpg
Wow. I can understand an increase. The population is bigger (and older). Maybe there is some percent rampup in treatment patterns. A 39-fold increase? There has never been that much cancer in the history of the world. I don't know what the 'right' number is, but it sure as hell isn't 39x. Something is radically - and I mean RADICALLY out of whack.
 
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Wow. I can understand an increase. The population is bigger (and older). Maybe there is some percent rampup in treatment patterns. A 39-fold increase? There has never been that much cancer in the history of the world. I don't know what the 'right' number is, but it sure as hell isn't 39x. Something is radically - and I mean RADICALLY out of whack.
I am seeing that DEA is winding it back now, and we will see some strict reduction over time. It's ridiculous.
 
Not to be antagonistic, but how many of you guys know for sure that in your 401-K or IRA that you don't have any big pharma stocks? If any of your retirement investments are institutional, I almost guarantee you've got one or more of those companies in your portfolio. If you really think that the biggest problem is the drug companies, then you should divest.
 
Here are the 12 states:
Alabama: 142.9 per 100 people
  • Tennessee: 142.8
  • West Virginia: 137.6
  • Kentucky: 128.4
  • Oklahoma: 127.8
  • Mississippi: 120.3
  • Louisiana: 118
  • Arkansas: 115.8
  • Indiana: 109.1
  • Michigan: 107
  • South Carolina: 101.8
  • Ohio: 100.1


So basically Trumps base of supporters?
 
Wow. I can understand an increase. The population is bigger (and older). Maybe there is some percent rampup in treatment patterns. A 39-fold increase? There has never been that much cancer in the history of the world. I don't know what the 'right' number is, but it sure as hell isn't 39x. Something is radically - and I mean RADICALLY out of whack.


How is it radically out of whack, the drug companies are making huge profits! It's all good.
 
Not to be antagonistic, but how many of you guys know for sure that in your 401-K or IRA that you don't have any big pharma stocks? If any of your retirement investments are institutional, I almost guarantee you've got one or more of those companies in your portfolio. If you really think that the biggest problem is the drug companies, then you should divest.
Lurker let me ask you a question and I am not trying to start a fight. You're a physician although I do not know what your specialty is. What was the last major breakthrough drug that you have seen that really had a marked difference in outcomes to your patients?

We have all kinds of 'me-too' drugs, patent protected, at sky-high prices. How many are more than marginally better than existing drugs? They tweak a molecule here or there, but how much of the stuff is really new or different? I could be way wrong - but I suspect that the really great, breakthrough stuff has been discovered a long time ago. Now we're just tinkering on the margins.

I understand the costs of bringing a new drug through development and thru trials and I know full well that many drugs cost a fortune in development and then never get off the chemist's bench. All those costs have to be recouped. The drug company damn well better make a profit or they will cease to exist, and while they're at it they sure as hell better pay my dividends.

But what are they REALLY developing here? And is it worthwhile, or is it a massive scam?
 
I can't speak for everyone. I would say in my experience, in this day and age, true break-through drugs are certainly less than they were a generation ago. But they exist, and the difference is now that the breakthrough drugs are often for diseases that in the old days would just kill people quickly and no good therapy was available otherwise. The Hepatitis C drug is clearly one of them, alas also famous for its ridiculously high price. There are a number of cancer drugs and immune modulator drugs that are very effective against diseases that not long ago were death sentences, like non-Hodgkins Lymphoma. Hodgkins is completely curable now. The statin drugs have changed lipid management in an extremely drastic manner. Asthma is extremely well-controlled now, as opposed to when we were kids. Nobody has status asthmaticus anymore. Those are a few examples. Are the examples less now? I would guess. The improvements we see nowadays are much more incremental in a lot of drugs as opposed to being truly novel and cutting edge, but I would say that moving forward we'll see more of those, because we're just getting started with genetic and molecular methods of therapy. But overall I'd say that most common diseases are treated much more effectively than in the past, like hypertension, because so many more pharmacologic choices exist, and sometimes one drug just doesn't work as well on a person than another drug will.

There's no question that there have been huge pharmacologic advances in our generation. Their have also been faux pas and greed. Nobody can deny that.
 
Jobs. Good jobs, with a future, so that people want to work and have a better life for themselves and their kids instead of falling down the drug hole. An investment for fixing and maintaining our infrastructure (roads, bridges, rail, airports) means good blue-collar jobs that benefit everyone. And we keep the money here. If I am full of beans, tell me why.
Except that the opioid epidemic is often a middle-class problem. People that have good jobs, kids who come from solid families. It's not always the down-and-out who get hooked on this stuff.
 
No question. Cuts across all lines. Have seen tragic instances of this on a number of occasions. It is NOT a problem of the lower class, which is why it is such a mainstream issue. If it were, nobody would give a shit.
 
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Lurker let me ask you a question and I am not trying to start a fight. You're a physician although I do not know what your specialty is. What was the last major breakthrough drug that you have seen that really had a marked difference in outcomes to your patients?

We have all kinds of 'me-too' drugs, patent protected, at sky-high prices. How many are more than marginally better than existing drugs? They tweak a molecule here or there, but how much of the stuff is really new or different? I could be way wrong - but I suspect that the really great, breakthrough stuff has been discovered a long time ago. Now we're just tinkering on the margins.

I understand the costs of bringing a new drug through development and thru trials and I know full well that many drugs cost a fortune in development and then never get off the chemist's bench. All those costs have to be recouped. The drug company damn well better make a profit or they will cease to exist, and while they're at it they sure as hell better pay my dividends.

But what are they REALLY developing here? And is it worthwhile, or is it a massive scam?

I understand the costs of bringing a new drug through development and thru trials and I know full well that many drugs cost a fortune in development and then never get off the chemist's bench. All those costs have to be recouped. The drug company damn well better make a profit or they will cease to exist, and while they're at it they sure as hell better pay my dividends.


The big drug companies spend more on marketing than they do on R&D.
 
Read the book "Dreamland" by Sam Quinones. It's a frightening and eye-opening piece of literature.
 
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