AKB- PPL Powerlines

[NittanyPirate]

I own some property that has a power line running through it. Last week I was contacted by a PPL rep stating they would be replacing the poles. I met with the rep to go over some preliminary paperwork today (PUC form and survey permission) and that is when I found out that the new poles would be significantly higher than the current ones.

My issue is that I plan on building some day further up the hill at a predetermined spot that is already cleared. The higher poles/lines will most definitely cause and eye sore at what would have been a beautiful view of the Susquehanna valley. Essentially IMO it will depreciate the value of the land.

Do I have any leg to stand on, or will I have to bend over and take it?

Thanks in advance for any info or suggestions. This has me bummed.

 

[psuro]

Are they leasing from you or do they have an easement?

You might want to talk to a Land Use Attorney. Or the municipal planner in that town.

 

[NittanyPirate]

They have an easement. Further limiting my options I assume.

 

[Creek Side]

You could always go underground on your property. Without knowing any details like how large your property is, and what level of lines PPL has over head which would influence cost. They could set a pole with a guy wire at each edge of your property and transition from aerial to underground on those poles. I'm almost positive this would cost you from your own pocket, but just giving a suggestion and maybe something to negotiate towards if you have any leverage.

 

[psuro]

They have an easement. Further limiting my options I assume.

Yeah it does limit your options. You may not have a lot of options here.

 

[NittanyPirate]

I kind of figured they would be limited.

 

[step.eng69]

You could always go underground on your property. Without knowing any details like how large your property is, and what level of lines PPL has over head which would influence cost. They could set a pole with a guy wire at each edge of your property and transition from aerial to underground on those poles. I'm almost positive this would cost you from your own pocket, but just giving a suggestion and maybe something to negotiate towards if you have any leverage.

 

[gymdad]

Some suggestions:

- find out exactly who you are interacting with. Is the PPL rep an employee (name, position, office location and supervisor) or a contractor?

- document EVERYTHING. Ask that all proposals, commitments, representations be given to you in writing with a signature of empowered PPL employee and date on the proposal.

- get a copy of the original easement.... I always like to have the utility rep provide a copy as it puts them on notice I want to understand all the details before agreeing to anything. Some older easements have specific language limiting the location, # of structures and voltage of line. Key is to know what their present legal rights are. In some very old cases with original lines build during the rural electrification days there may not even be an easement so their rights to upgrade may be questionable.

What is width of row permitted in original easement and how does it compare to in field conditions?

- Request a copy of the preliminary line design for the replacement line proposed across your property. You’ll benefit from knowing the proposed voltage, number and type of structures (wood pole, steel lattice or steel pole etc.) The specific pole locations may be OK with your future plans and may not. Devil is always in the details which most utilities are reluctant to disclose in advance of signing.

- what will be the voltage.... prior comment re underground,,, if the new line is a distribution line may be feasible... if high voltage transmission the transition structures will be very costly and present maintenance complications

- request the preliminary design details include all structure foundation and guy wire details. This is detail often overlooked by property owners but could result in extensive additional vegetation clearing and access road construction. This is especially the case if the line will be on steel poles where construction may require large cranes and lots of concrete trucks to cross your property.

- What are plans for final restoration once construction complete on you property? Will they restore to original grade and contours or leave erosion/drainage controls and access road in place? A detail to be concerned about is unfortunately some individuals think utility right of ways are owned by the utility and open for public use. Trespass frequently becomes a problem following electric line upgrades. How will PPL control this... gates on access roads etc?


Begin to think about how this proposal can be structured to be beneficial to you. I.e. for your future home location

- will it need extensive improvements for access. Can PPL's access for construction be situated to meet your needs?

- will you need a lengthy electrical service line installed to serve your new home. can PPL install it now and collocated on the new poles they want to install. (at their cost of course)

DON"T AGREE OR SIGN ANYTHING UNTIL YOU CONSULT WITH AN ATTORNEY.(I'm not one) When you do ask them about the PA curtilage law and consider if spending money to put some part of your future home foundation in now may help protect your interests.

Willing to discuss these points if you want to PM me.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Willing to discuss these points if you want to PM me.

just a FYI to the two of you. @gymdad is a PT subscriber. @NittanyPirate is not a PT subscriber. As such, @NittanyPirate can not initiate a PM. @gymdad would need to initiate a PM, and while he's not a PT subscriber, @NittanyPirate could respond to it.

 

[The Spin Meister]

Some suggestions:

- find out exactly who you are interacting with. Is the PPL rep an employee (name, position, office location and supervisor) or a contractor?

- document EVERYTHING. Ask that all proposals, commitments, representations be given to you in writing with a signature of empowered PPL employee and date on the proposal.

- get a copy of the original easement.... I always like to have the utility rep provide a copy as it puts them on notice I want to understand all the details before agreeing to anything. Some older easements have specific language limiting the location, # of structures and voltage of line. Key is to know what their present legal rights are. In some very old cases with original lines build during the rural electrification days there may not even be an easement so their rights to upgrade may be questionable.

What is width of row permitted in original easement and how does it compare to in field conditions?

- Request a copy of the preliminary line design for the replacement line proposed across your property. You’ll benefit from knowing the proposed voltage, number and type of structures (wood pole, steel lattice or steel pole etc.) The specific pole locations may be OK with your future plans and may not. Devil is always in the details which most utilities are reluctant to disclose in advance of signing.

- what will be the voltage.... prior comment re underground,,, if the new line is a distribution line may be feasible... if high voltage transmission the transition structures will be very costly and present maintenance complications

- request the preliminary design details include all structure foundation and guy wire details. This is detail often overlooked by property owners but could result in extensive additional vegetation clearing and access road construction. This is especially the case if the line will be on steel poles where construction may require large cranes and lots of concrete trucks to cross your property.

- What are plans for final restoration once construction complete on you property? Will they restore to original grade and contours or leave erosion/drainage controls and access road in place? A detail to be concerned about is unfortunately some individuals think utility right of ways are owned by the utility and open for public use. Trespass frequently becomes a problem following electric line upgrades. How will PPL control this... gates on access roads etc?


Begin to think about how this proposal can be structured to be beneficial to you. I.e. for your future home location

- will it need extensive improvements for access. Can PPL's access for construction be situated to meet your needs?

- will you need a lengthy electrical service line installed to serve your new home. can PPL install it now and collocated on the new poles they want to install. (at their cost of course)

DON"T AGREE OR SIGN ANYTHING UNTIL YOU CONSULT WITH AN ATTORNEY.(I'm not one) When you do ask them about the PA curtilage law and consider if spending money to put some part of your future home foundation in now may help protect your interests.

Willing to discuss these points if you want to PM me.

---
Man, that was impressive. Good stuff. Major corps are great at bluffing and intimidation. They will always act like you have no options. But there may be many.

To be clear on what he said, you may be able to get them to put in access road to your new home location and/or run lines while they are there. And if you start putting in the foundation now it may give you some leverage into limiting what they can do. However, since you were already notified of their intent, it may be too late.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Some suggestions:

- find out exactly who you are interacting with. Is the PPL rep an employee (name, position, office location and supervisor) or a contractor?

- document EVERYTHING. Ask that all proposals, commitments, representations be given to you in writing with a signature of empowered PPL employee and date on the proposal.

- get a copy of the original easement.... I always like to have the utility rep provide a copy as it puts them on notice I want to understand all the details before agreeing to anything. Some older easements have specific language limiting the location, # of structures and voltage of line. Key is to know what their present legal rights are. In some very old cases with original lines build during the rural electrification days there may not even be an easement so their rights to upgrade may be questionable.

What is width of row permitted in original easement and how does it compare to in field conditions?

- Request a copy of the preliminary line design for the replacement line proposed across your property. You’ll benefit from knowing the proposed voltage, number and type of structures (wood pole, steel lattice or steel pole etc.) The specific pole locations may be OK with your future plans and may not. Devil is always in the details which most utilities are reluctant to disclose in advance of signing.

- what will be the voltage.... prior comment re underground,,, if the new line is a distribution line may be feasible... if high voltage transmission the transition structures will be very costly and present maintenance complications

- request the preliminary design details include all structure foundation and guy wire details. This is detail often overlooked by property owners but could result in extensive additional vegetation clearing and access road construction. This is especially the case if the line will be on steel poles where construction may require large cranes and lots of concrete trucks to cross your property.

- What are plans for final restoration once construction complete on you property? Will they restore to original grade and contours or leave erosion/drainage controls and access road in place? A detail to be concerned about is unfortunately some individuals think utility right of ways are owned by the utility and open for public use. Trespass frequently becomes a problem following electric line upgrades. How will PPL control this... gates on access roads etc?


Begin to think about how this proposal can be structured to be beneficial to you. I.e. for your future home location

- will it need extensive improvements for access. Can PPL's access for construction be situated to meet your needs?

- will you need a lengthy electrical service line installed to serve your new home. can PPL install it now and collocated on the new poles they want to install. (at their cost of course)

DON"T AGREE OR SIGN ANYTHING UNTIL YOU CONSULT WITH AN ATTORNEY.(I'm not one) When you do ask them about the PA curtilage law and consider if spending money to put some part of your future home foundation in now may help protect your interests.

Willing to discuss these points if you want to PM me.

As a lawyer who works in house for a development company that signs about 100 easements a year and reviews a larger amount of transmission easements burdening our leases, these are great suggestions.

To the OP, find a land use attorney ASAP. Even if my company has rights on our side, the last thing we ever want is for a landowner to make a ruckus - you often have way more leverage than you think. Of course, public utilities have far more power than my private company, so that’s a negative.

And as gymdad said, get the original easement. You should be able to find at least the memo of easement in the county records as it is an encumbrance on your property. If you have your title policy, the recording info will be in Schedule B of the policy as an exception to title. It will recite the parties (I.e. landowner of your property at the time or an interest owner like a lessee with easement granting rights and PPL or its predecessor in interest) and the Volume and page number where the doc can be found in the county records.

Good luck

 

[ILLINOISLION]

Gymdad, why’d it take you almost four hours to respond?

S E R I O U S L Y.....one hell of a response! Kudos to you and the other responders helping out. There’s not a day that goes by here on the Board that I’m not amazed by the depth of knowledge that gets thrown into threads like these. It doesn’t matter what the questions are.....someone here will provide guidance and assistance. Pretty damn cool!

 

[NittanyPirate]

I can’t begin to thank gymdad enough! This board is a blessing for so many different reasons.

 

[gymdad]

I can’t begin to thank gymdad enough! This board is a blessing for so many different reasons.

Glad to help and share experiences. Additional thoughts
- do you like wildlife or are you a hunter? Ask PPL to establish AND MAINTAIN game food plots on right of way during their restoration. The PA Game Commission requires this when utilities cross game lands and PPL will have specs for this in their files.
- will there be tree clearing for the reconstruction? What is PPL proposing for disposal of branches and timber. Can branches be chipped and along with logs be placed in location you can sell or use yourself. Maybe at your future homesite?
- do NOT sign PPL’s standard easement. At least eliminate clause re multiple lines and ability to reconstruct. You want right to renegotiate if their plans/needs change in future.
- ask why PPL is proposing the new line? It may be serving or enabling a future feature like a new wind or solar farm whose location may be troublesome for the view from your future home.
- TALK TO YOUR NEIGHBORS and share information. That’s best way to somewhat level negotiation table w/ PPL. They have upper hand initially w knowledge and public betterment empowerment.
- consider stipulation that your settlement payment will be equal to the highest price per payment feature they use on this project. I.e. acre of right of way, ft of access road, ft of encumbered road frontage, etc.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Glad to help and share experiences. Additional thoughts
- do you like wildlife or are you a hunter? Ask PPL to establish AND MAINTAIN game food plots on right of way during their restoration. The PA Game Commission requires this when utilities cross game lands and PPL will have specs for this in their files.
- will there be tree clearing for the reconstruction? What is PPL proposing for disposal of branches and timber. Can branches be chipped and along with logs be placed in location you can sell or use yourself. Maybe at your future homesite?
- do NOT sign PPL’s standard easement. At least eliminate clause re multiple lines and ability to reconstruct. You want right to renegotiate if their plans/needs change in future.
- ask why PPL is proposing the new line? It may be serving or enabling a future feature like a new wind or solar farm whose location may be troublesome for the view from your future home.
- TALK TO YOUR NEIGHBORS and share information. That’s best way to somewhat level negotiation table w/ PPL. They have upper hand initially w knowledge and public betterment empowerment.
- consider stipulation that your settlement payment will be equal to the highest price per payment feature they use on this project. I.e. acre of right of way, ft of access road, ft of encumbered road frontage, etc.

To add to this, in Texas we have something called a “Most Favored Nation” provision. It will be language ensuring that if any person gets compensated more for the same or similar facilities being built, etc, you get the difference added to whatever you were paid.

It’s a way not to get low-balled if you sign an agreement early

 

[PS4814]

So after you do everything else suggested in this thread begin praying that they install painted poles. I say this as a populated area near me had their poles "upgraded" by PPL from nice pale green painted poles that blended into the landscape, to poles that were about 1/3 larger and were left untreated and look as though the entire pole is covered in brown/orange rust. Now I'm sure this is normal for some reason or another, but the new poles from PPL look like ass.

Good luck!

 

[NittanyPirate]

The guy I met with is a ppl employee.

I just requested a copy of the original easement.

Although building a home is not in the near future plans, I have already cleared an acre spot for the site and put in the lane. I would like to put a pavilion or camper on it until I build.(years away).

The power lines are approximately 500 yards downhill of this site.

The power lines cross a road and then enter my property so they pretty much have immediate access to the lines from the road but the utility poles are currently about 400 yards from the road. This area includes a small stream which they will need to traverse.

The PPL employee stated that they are in the phase of surveying a 40 mile stretch of the power lines. Then they will hire an engineer to draw up plans to reinstall metal poles along this stretch to replace the wooden ones. I’m told the ultimate goal is to reduce the number of poles needed, thus raising the height of the lines, to be more cost effective. He said they would not change the direction or or path that the lines currently run because that would require changing hundreds of individual easement agreements that are currently in place.

He also stated it is possible that after surveying the stretch they may not even need to have utility poles on my property. Then I would just be stuck with the ugly lines.

Currently the lines are over a semi cleared field that is approximately 75 yards wide and contains thick underbrush, saplings, and the aforementioned creek. He did not think they would need to cut any more trees but they will most likely need to cut in a lane to bring in their equipment and cross the stream for installation.

While I do not hunt, I allow some friends to hunt it.

I haven’t called an attorney yet since this is still in the very early stages and I am somewhat fearful I am going to start wracking up legal fees.

Again, thank you for all of the information and advice. I plan on documenting everything and like I stated earlier I have requested a copy of the original easement. I doubt I hear back from them until the survey is complete, at which time I will decide on hiring legal help.

 

[Lionfan01]

So after you do everything else suggested in this thread begin praying that they install painted poles. I say this as a populated area near me had their poles "upgraded" by PPL from nice pale green painted poles that blended into the landscape, to poles that were about 1/3 larger and were left untreated and look as though the entire pole is covered in brown/orange rust. Now I'm sure this is normal for some reason or another, but the new poles from PPL look like ass.

Good luck!

Yep, that is on purpose. The "rust" layer on the outside creates a barrier that prevents further corrosion. The painted poles required additional maintenance to repair areas where paint flaked off and real corrosion happened underneath.

 

[step.eng69]

Yep, that is on purpose. The "rust" layer on the outside creates a barrier that prevents further corrosion. The painted poles required additional maintenance to repair areas where paint flaked off and real corrosion happened underneath.

Correct, CorTen steel. While at Michael Baker, Jr as a young engineer in the 70's, I was involved with the New River Gorge bridge. CorTen grade 588 steel was selected for the bridge.

 

[PS4814]

Yep, that is on purpose. The "rust" layer on the outside creates a barrier that prevents further corrosion. The painted poles required additional maintenance to repair areas where paint flaked off and real corrosion happened underneath.

So a cost cutting measure that makes the polls look like ass. Deregulation for the win!

 

[Lionfan01]

So a cost cutting measure that makes the polls look like ass. Deregulation for the win!

What a regulated distribution company (PPL) does has absolutely nothing to do with any deregulated power generation business.

Lower maintenance costs are good for the ratepayer, unless you like paying more for your distribution charge?

 

[step.eng69]

So a cost cutting measure that makes the polls look like ass. Deregulation for the win!

CorTen steel costs two to three times more than conventional galvanized steel. Maintenance on normally exposed steel structures to protect from rusting is expensive. I'm sure the bottom line bean counters are taking inton consideration costs of long term maintenance of, CorTen vs galvanized steel, maybe I'm wrong. FWIW, l honestly don't know, I'm not privileged to the strategy of the business leaders.

 

[PS4814]

What a regulated distribution company (PPL) does has absolutely nothing to do with any deregulated power generation business.

Lower maintenance costs are good for the ratepayer, unless you like paying more for your distribution charge?

I’d be happy to pay more if they spent the money to make the transmisson poles look nicer when they’re run near neighborhoods. Especially when they replace already existing ones with those that are larger and look like ass due to being covered in rust.

Full disclosure I don’t have any of these near me, I just feel for the OP b/c I can see this happening to them.