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An unfair assessment of Spencer's Career?

GogglesPaizano

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
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Spencer at his very best (2nd championship year IMO) was amongst the best I have ever seen. None should view a 3xer, 2x hodge winner as anything less one of the most elite ever, but to the question of did he reach his full potential, I think a discussion is fair.

Despite his bonus & dominance during duals this season he was not at the level I saw several years ago. This year he was tossed to his back 3 separate times, less dynamic and quick from neutral, notably gassed in some matches.

If I am to question could his career have been better, the answer is an unequivocal 'YES'. Here is a short list of why and where he fell short:

1). Injury - no doubt no one but Spencer knows the extent, but he seems far from 100%, and may never get there again. Anyone who questions the effect of injury on his career and how it ended is simply not being fair. It's quite possible the true "100% Spencer" was last seen his junior year of highschool.

2). Conditioning - his 3rd period gas tank issues are well known. Granted a history of ending matches in the first and second period doesn't help. He does not possess a world class gas tank, admittedly this too might factor to his injuries as well.

3). One dimensional - not quite a fair categorization as his neutral and top games are other worldly, but he is somewhat pedestrian on bottom, and take away his tilt and bar and there is a lot of room for improvement scoring on top.

4). Attitude - too much of his persona is all about Spencer. To hear he chose not to go live hard against team mates is only defensable if tied to the injuries. Team over self is a very important life concept. Maybe unfair, but I think ego played a big factor in his recruitment decision.

5). Development - the key to elite greatness is improving every single day, admitting that one's skill set today is not sufficient for tomorrow. I think Spencer had stood on pat on his strengths and did not address his weaknesses. See #3 above. It's too hard to take an honest self critique when you are dominating virtually every opponent. It was pretty clear the quality of competition the past 2 campaigns was far from elite. Without a 'worthy' challenger how great is great enough?

The irony in all of this is he chose to go somewhere that has a relatively spotty record at best of developing elite talent, to become 'the face' and savior of the program, and to his credit he did deliver one team championship on his shoulders.

What he gave up, was the opportunity to learn and develop under the greatest coach of a generation. Cael's program would have had a significant positive incremental impact on categories 2-5 for sure. As for 1, I also suspect he would not have been faced with the pressure of the team depending upon his presence to be competitive, potentially forcing him back into action what certainly now seems like a year too early.

Had he gone to PSU, he most likely would have red shirted his first year, had fewer weaknesses, far better conditioning, a maniacle focus on daily incremental improvements, a far broader arsenal of tools, the support and strength of the team concept, and IMO not only would he have been a 4xer, but he would have had an outside shot at Cael's career undefeated milestone. Anyone looking honestly at the contrast between Iowa and PSU can not the this possibility.

To every super elite blue chipper that chooses Oky State, Ohio State or Iowa, Spencer's example can be yet one more in an increasingly long line of what woulda, coulda, shoulda been stellar careers.

Cornel and Mizzou oddly enough are at the top of my list for other programs that demonstrate some consistency in developing top talent. No doubt Cael is still the very best.

I have to admit, I am still bummed that Spencer passed on the obvious best choice to build his career and set him on a path to his optimal self as a competitor. How great could Spencer Lee have been if he has committed to Penn State? We will never know, but we can use evidence based deduction to guess.

Make no mistake, what he gave us was something exceptionally rare and special, but it ended with a roar then a whisper sounding hollow and incomplete. As much as I root against the Hawkeyes, and as bitter as I have felt in losing the battle for Spencer so many years ago, his last match left me feeling sad and a bit empty to be perfectly honest.

I think a number of years down the road, the whole Lee family may start to wonder 'what if' as well. I hope not, as regret is not a positive to carry forward.

I hope the next generation's Spencer Lee will learn a little bit from history.
 
There are a couple other things that hurt him. First was trying to go last year. He ended up having ACL reconstruction on both knees in January. Is it any wonder he’s not back to 100% in terms of either rehab or conditioning in just a year? If he had the surgery in March 21 instead of January 22 and taken the med red shirt last year, he’d be in a far better position health and endurance wise this year.

Second, Covid. There’s no doubt he was going to win in 20. If he then pulls off the “excuses are for wusses” title in 21, that would have been his 4th title leading his team to their second team title with no ACLs, and he would have been a legend. He’d also have 3 years to fix his knees and prepare for the 24 Olympics.
 
There are a couple other things that hurt him. First was trying to go last year. He ended up having ACL reconstruction on both knees in January. Is it any wonder he’s not back to 100% in terms of either rehab or conditioning in just a year? If he had the surgery in March 21 instead of January 22 and taken the med red shirt last year, he’d be in a far better position health and endurance wise this year.

Second, Covid. There’s no doubt he was going to win in 20. If he then pulls off the “excuses are for wusses” title in 21, that would have been his 4th title leading his team to their second team title with no ACLs, and he would have been a legend. He’d also have 3 years to fix his knees and prepare for the 24 Olympics.
great call outs.
 
I think the main reason Spencer fought through everything he did was for Iowa and for that, I have to give him my props.

1. He never repaired his 2019 ACL tear (one reason was the Olympics but also he knew he was needed to win the 2020 team title, which was subsequently cancelled) He mentioned during that rehab process, he felt completely normal.
2. He doesn't repair his double ACL tear since he wanted to wrestle 2022 without it. He thought since he was good without one for a while, why not both? It subsequently did not work.
3. I candidly, believe DOUBLE ACL surgery plus the fact one was a retear of a previous one should have AT LEAST been a year rehab. I'm not a doctor but the fact he was wrestling against Iowa State this year IMO was a way rushed process. Afterwards, he just kept going.

For reasons 1 and 2, it was very admirable. Both were because he knew his team needed his points. He should have been more "selfish" the third time around because candidly, Iowa was not a contender for the team title with him and some streak being preserved against Iowa State was NOT worth it. He should have honestly been idle for for a lot longer than slowly eased his way back and maybe wait until 2023-2024 to compete (if not skip that for the Olympics and defer again, dead serious) Instead, it's very likely something was aggravated.
 
If he just would have said, "I'm very happy to have won with the injuries I sustained with the help of the Iowa medical staff, coaches, and my teammates" instead of "excuses are for wussies" I don't believe the pressure would have been as much and there would have been little animosity.
 
If he just would have said, "I'm very happy to have won with the injuries I sustained with the help of the Iowa medical staff, coaches, and my teammates" instead of "excuses are for wussies" I don't believe the pressure would have been as much and there would have been little animosity.
I'll just say it, I think Brands (and Spencer obviously also) wanted to steal back the thunder from PSU going 4/4 at the time. That's why he kept saying "tell them" Winning wasn't good enough, let's make a story.
 
Random question:

When was the last time Spencer got pinned? If I'm not mistaken, Ramos's pin was Spencer's only loss by fall in high school (obviously) or college.

Truly I have no idea.
 
There are a couple other things that hurt him. First was trying to go last year. He ended up having ACL reconstruction on both knees in January. Is it any wonder he’s not back to 100% in terms of either rehab or conditioning in just a year? If he had the surgery in March 21 instead of January 22 and taken the med red shirt last year, he’d be in a far better position health and endurance wise this year.

Second, Covid. There’s no doubt he was going to win in 20. If he then pulls off the “excuses are for wusses” title in 21, that would have been his 4th title leading his team to their second team title with no ACLs, and he would have been a legend. He’d also have 3 years to fix his knees and prepare for the 24 Olympics.
Lockdowns, not just Covid, ended the 2020 tournament. We allowed Nick Saban to win yet another half-assed, fake, SEC homer national title under conditions deemed "safe" by the powers that be, but disallowed wrestlers to get their fair and legitimate title shot. I'm still salty.
 
Random question:

When was the last time Spencer got pinned? If I'm not mistaken, Ramos's pin was Spencer's only loss by fall in high school (obviously) or college.

Truly I have no idea.
Oklahoma State's Piccininni pinned him a dual
 
I am only using information from Ayala’s mother….. but since he was not wrestling Ayala in the room, I’m guessing Spencer did limited to no live wrestling all year except matches. Would explain the increased gas tank issues and just not looking sharp. Since he is Spencer Lee he won’t all of them but the last one
 
I am only using information from Ayala’s mother….. but since he was not wrestling Ayala in the room, I’m guessing Spencer did limited to no live wrestling all year except matches. Would explain the increased gas tank issues and just not looking sharp. Since he is Spencer Lee he won’t all of them but the last one
for sure... it is easy to suspect he wasn't practicing due to injuries...
 
Random question:

When was the last time Spencer got pinned? If I'm not mistaken, Ramos's pin was Spencer's only loss by fall in high school (obviously) or college.

Truly I have no idea.
Pic from okie state pinned him didn't he?
 
Rivera beat him twice, but both by decision. Thomasello beat him 2-1 at Bigs in 2018. Pic did pin him. And Ramos decked him this year. Looks like Bresser beat him at MIdlands in 2018 too.
 
Spencer at his very best (2nd championship year IMO) was amongst the best I have ever seen. None should view a 3xer, 2x hodge winner as anything less one of the most elite ever, but to the question of did he reach his full potential, I think a discussion is fair.

Despite his bonus & dominance during duals this season he was not at the level I saw several years ago. This year he was tossed to his back 3 separate times, less dynamic and quick from neutral, notably gassed in some matches.

If I am to question could his career have been better, the answer is an unequivocal 'YES'. Here is a short list of why and where he fell short:

1). Injury - no doubt no one but Spencer knows the extent, but he seems far from 100%, and may never get there again. Anyone who questions the effect of injury on his career and how it ended is simply not being fair. It's quite possible the true "100% Spencer" was last seen his junior year of highschool.

2). Conditioning - his 3rd period gas tank issues are well known. Granted a history of ending matches in the first and second period doesn't help. He does not possess a world class gas tank, admittedly this too might factor to his injuries as well.

3). One dimensional - not quite a fair categorization as his neutral and top games are other worldly, but he is somewhat pedestrian on bottom, and take away his tilt and bar and there is a lot of room for improvement scoring on top.

4). Attitude - too much of his persona is all about Spencer. To hear he chose not to go live hard against team mates is only defensable if tied to the injuries. Team over self is a very important life concept. Maybe unfair, but I think ego played a big factor in his recruitment decision.

5). Development - the key to elite greatness is improving every single day, admitting that one's skill set today is not sufficient for tomorrow. I think Spencer had stood on pat on his strengths and did not address his weaknesses. See #3 above. It's too hard to take an honest self critique when you are dominating virtually every opponent. It was pretty clear the quality of competition the past 2 campaigns was far from elite. Without a 'worthy' challenger how great is great enough?

The irony in all of this is he chose to go somewhere that has a relatively spotty record at best of developing elite talent, to become 'the face' and savior of the program, and to his credit he did deliver one team championship on his shoulders.

What he gave up, was the opportunity to learn and develop under the greatest coach of a generation. Cael's program would have had a significant positive incremental impact on categories 2-5 for sure. As for 1, I also suspect he would not have been faced with the pressure of the team depending upon his presence to be competitive, potentially forcing him back into action what certainly now seems like a year too early.

Had he gone to PSU, he most likely would have red shirted his first year, had fewer weaknesses, far better conditioning, a maniacle focus on daily incremental improvements, a far broader arsenal of tools, the support and strength of the team concept, and IMO not only would he have been a 4xer, but he would have had an outside shot at Cael's career undefeated milestone. Anyone looking honestly at the contrast between Iowa and PSU can not the this possibility.

To every super elite blue chipper that chooses Oky State, Ohio State or Iowa, Spencer's example can be yet one more in an increasingly long line of what woulda, coulda, shoulda been stellar careers.

Cornel and Mizzou oddly enough are at the top of my list for other programs that demonstrate some consistency in developing top talent. No doubt Cael is still the very best.

I have to admit, I am still bummed that Spencer passed on the obvious best choice to build his career and set him on a path to his optimal self as a competitor. How great could Spencer Lee have been if he has committed to Penn State? We will never know, but we can use evidence based deduction to guess.

Make no mistake, what he gave us was something exceptionally rare and special, but it ended with a roar then a whisper sounding hollow and incomplete. As much as I root against the Hawkeyes, and as bitter as I have felt in losing the battle for Spencer so many years ago, his last match left me feeling sad and a bit empty to be perfectly honest.

I think a number of years down the road, the whole Lee family may start to wonder 'what if' as well. I hope not, as regret is not a positive to carry forward.

I hope the next generation's Spencer Lee will learn a little bit from history.

This is a very good evaluation, but I would add the following:

Because wrestling is ultimately a solitary endeavor that requires a short memory and iron will; it attracts and requires strong egos. A good coach understands, directs and checks those egos. With Spencer, as his accomplishments grew, his already healthy ego grew. Unfortunately, his injuries placed limits on him.

So coming back this year was about one thing-getting a 4th title. Spencer made it clear he wanted to wrestle as little as possible and only when he wanted to wrestle. Sure he'd lost before, even been decked, but lately nobody seemed to be able to defend that tilt.

So what happened?

He wanted his final year to be goodbye tour and his coronation tour. He ignored the warning signs. If there was any doubt about his vulnerability, Marco Vespa ended it. He was obviously gassing on the rare occasion he didn't end the match early. Make no mistake, he turned three near disasters into pins. The incident with Ayala quite frankly exposed an outsized ego that was likely resistent to anything TnT might have had to tell him.

Ultimately, he thought he was the best and had no need to improve-forget every other opponent has ambitions-and Ramos, who ended up wrestling an unheard of today 40 matches this year showed his hunger.

If there's one lesson to be gained from this: complacency is lethal. Unfortunately for Spencer, his coilege career is over and continuing in wrestling means going into a more demanding environment and he'll have to take every match he can get. I don't think his body will hold up and I don't think he's shown the right demeanor to be a coach.
 
I haven't done the full analysis yet. Spencer might be the first ever 3x time champ that didn't get the 4th.
Don’t put that jinx on CStar and AB!!!
Say Less Bad Luck GIF by Bridge and Tunnel on EPIX
 
Some of you probably remember the great Jason Betz from warrior run…senior year semis going for title number 4, up fairly big and gets caught in a spladel and gets stuck….know one in that arena expected that…came back out and wrestled for third….huge standing ovation….what Spencer should have done…..
 
Every time I turn around the kid is getting pinned! He’s no Nolf - that’s for sure

One of my favorite Spencer fun facts: He lost by fall as many times in his NCAA career as George Carpenter.

Another one: Of the 100 wrestlers on Flo’s 2017 Big Board, 16 went on to have more NCAA career wins than Spencer. Spencer tied for 17th on the list with Allan Hart.

OK, one more: Spencer lost the same number of matches in his career to wrestlers who never won an NCAA title as Ruth, Taylor, Retherford, Nolf, and Nickal combined.
 
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For the first 4 and a half minutes of any match he was among the very best to ever do it. However, if he found himself still wrestling in the last 2 and a half minutes of a match...
 
One of my favorite Spencer fun facts: He lost by fall as many times in his NCAA career as George Carpenter.

Another one: Of the 100 wrestlers on Flo’s 2017 Big Board, 16 went on to have more NCAA career wins than Spencer. Spencer tied for 17th on the list with Allan Hart

OK, one more: Spencer lost the same number of matches in his career to wrestlers who never won an NCAA title as Ruth, Taylor, Retherford, Nolf, and Nickal combined.

37ig5y.gif
 
This is a very good evaluation, but I would add the following:

Because wrestling is ultimately a solitary endeavor that requires a short memory and iron will; it attracts and requires strong egos. A good coach understands, directs and checks those egos. With Spencer, as his accomplishments grew, his already healthy ego grew. Unfortunately, his injuries placed limits on him.

So coming back this year was about one thing-getting a 4th title. Spencer made it clear he wanted to wrestle as little as possible and only when he wanted to wrestle. Sure he'd lost before, even been decked, but lately nobody seemed to be able to defend that tilt.

So what happened?

He wanted his final year to be goodbye tour and his coronation tour. He ignored the warning signs. If there was any doubt about his vulnerability, Marco Vespa ended it. He was obviously gassing on the rare occasion he didn't end the match early. Make no mistake, he turned three near disasters into pins. The incident with Ayala quite frankly exposed an outsized ego that was likely resistent to anything TnT might have had to tell him.

Ultimately, he thought he was the best and had no need to improve-forget every other opponent has ambitions-and Ramos, who ended up wrestling an unheard of today 40 matches this year showed his hunger.

If there's one lesson to be gained from this: complacency is lethal. Unfortunately for Spencer, his coilege career is over and continuing in wrestling means going into a more demanding environment and he'll have to take every match he can get. I don't think his body will hold up and I don't think he's shown the right demeanor to be a coach.
I don't think it's fair to say that he didn't think he needed to improve or that he was complacent.

He had major physical limitations. There's been ample discussion about his inability to train properly because of his injury issues, not because he didn't think he needed to or didn't feel like it.

Spencer Lee is a great wrestler who lost his last match. It happens. Just ask RBY.
 
OK, one more: Spencer lost the same number of matches in his career to wrestlers who never won an NCAA title as Ruth, Taylor, Retherford, Nolf, and Nickal combined.
This includes Jason's injury default, right?

Though Van Brill was elite, just ask Gibbons, so maybe that should be equivalent to winning an NCAA title.
 
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Some of you probably remember the great Jason Betz from warrior run…senior year semis going for title number 4, up fairly big and gets caught in a spladel and gets stuck….know one in that arena expected that…came back out and wrestled for third….huge standing ovation….what Spencer should have done…..
I was there for that as I was from warrior run. Most f..jed up thing I ever saw as he was winning big. Then he had to wrestle that tank Klass on his way back to third I believe. Not real.sure of the name it was no cake walk. That sucked.
 
This is a very good evaluation, but I would add the following:

Because wrestling is ultimately a solitary endeavor that requires a short memory and iron will; it attracts and requires strong egos. A good coach understands, directs and checks those egos. With Spencer, as his accomplishments grew, his already healthy ego grew. Unfortunately, his injuries placed limits on him.

So coming back this year was about one thing-getting a 4th title. Spencer made it clear he wanted to wrestle as little as possible and only when he wanted to wrestle. Sure he'd lost before, even been decked, but lately nobody seemed to be able to defend that tilt.

So what happened?

He wanted his final year to be goodbye tour and his coronation tour. He ignored the warning signs. If there was any doubt about his vulnerability, Marco Vespa ended it. He was obviously gassing on the rare occasion he didn't end the match early. Make no mistake, he turned three near disasters into pins. The incident with Ayala quite frankly exposed an outsized ego that was likely resistent to anything TnT might have had to tell him.

Ultimately, he thought he was the best and had no need to improve-forget every other opponent has ambitions-and Ramos, who ended up wrestling an unheard of today 40 matches this year showed his hunger.

If there's one lesson to be gained from this: complacency is lethal. Unfortunately for Spencer, his coilege career is over and continuing in wrestling means going into a more demanding environment and he'll have to take every match he can get. I don't think his body will hold up and I don't think he's shown the right demeanor to be a coach.
To be accurate, Vespa was the 3rd wrestler in the span of 2 weeks to put Spencer on his back during duals. The warning signs were there all year. Spencer can pin or tech nearly any non top 10 wrestler in the first period if they play his game. I think the ease with which Spencer completely dominates average competition led to some complaceny. He was less mobile and dynamic due to his knees, his gas tank issues were obvious all year in the few matches that got to the third period, and his offense too one dimensional with the tilt and bar applied to almost every wrestler. I still thought that his strengths would offset those weaknesses, and only Glory 'might' give him a run for his money. I was wrong.

Now looking back at the totally of the year, I think this version of Spencer is a looong way from challenging Gilman.
 
I was there for that as I was from warrior run. Most f..jed up thing I ever saw as he was winning big. Then he had to wrestle that tank Klass on his way back to third I believe. Not real.sure of the name it was no cake walk. That sucked.
I’m from Hughesville….it was crazy
 
To be accurate, Vespa was the 3rd wrestler in the span of 2 weeks to put Spencer on his back during duals. The warning signs were there all year. Spencer can pin or tech nearly any non top 10 wrestler in the first period if they play his game. I think the ease with which Spencer completely dominates average competition led to some complaceny. He was less mobile and dynamic due to his knees, his gas tank issues were obvious all year in the few matches that got to the third period, and his offense too one dimensional with the tilt and bar applied to almost every wrestler. I still thought that his strengths would offset those weaknesses, and only Glory 'might' give him a run for his money. I was wrong.

Now looking back at the totally of the year, I think this version of Spencer is a looong way from challenging Gilman.
Spencer could also pin any top 10 wrestler in the first period
 
I haven't done the full analysis yet. Spencer might be the first ever 3x time champ that didn't get the 4th.
He is. The closest I found were guys that won their first two years...

Dick Hutton: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st
Pat Milkovich: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd
Ed Banach: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st
Isaiah Martinez: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd
Plus several 3x champs that lost in either their first or second seasons.
Gable's loss, during a different time, may be the closest comparison.
 
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He is. The closest I found were guys that won their first two years...

Dick Hutton: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st
Pat Milkovich: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd
Ed Banach: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st
Plus several 3x champs that lost in either their first or second seasons.
Gable's loss, during a different time, may be the closest comparison.
IMar
 
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