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Tom McAndrew

Tom McAndrew

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May 29, 2001
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Tom Elling still alive eh? I remember him as coach in the mid 70's at Lock Haven. Wish they would have paid him to stay. Took a number of years before Lock Haven exited the wilderness after he left. Glad to see he is still on the scene.
 
Nice they ignore whether it was control and NF. Like Bader but, if he is going to weigh in, go all in.
 
Pennstate1985 said:
Tom Elling still alive eh? I remember him as coach in the mid 70's at Lock Haven. Wish they would have paid him to stay. Took a number of years before Lock Haven exited the wilderness after he left. Glad to see he is still on the scene.
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I think he publishes a book every year on the history of PIAA state placers and other stuff. Bought last years version and found it pretty good espically helpful to remember folks you wrestled. I needed it given that I graduated in 1985
 
kingslayer_85 said:
I think he publishes a book every year on the history of PIAA state placers and other stuff. Bought last years version and found it pretty good espically helpful to remember folks you wrestled. I needed it given that I graduated in 1985
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Excellent. I remember some great duals with Easton during that time, and John Eichenlaub winning the title in 1975 I believe. He died too young later in life after a short stint on the PSU team.
 
Tom Elling is a great guy and a major proponent to the Sport of Wrestling. I'm glad we have him in Pennsylvania. He covers a wide variety of Sports, but I'm most thankful for his knowledge and coverage of High School and College Wrestling. We need 10 more of Tom.
 
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psuflyguy said:
FloWrestling: Dean Heil was NOT Pinned - by Stevie Wonder
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21Guns said:
Forward by Hellen Keller.
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3-blind-refs1-300x190.jpg
 
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I will say that they do call pins prematurely but that one was the ridiculous opposite - no doubt he was flat as a pancake on several occasions. There's been times I cringe at some of the quick pins even given to our guys (even though I think eventually they would have firm pin) but come on - plain simple case of home town ref not having the nuts to make the call. I've seen that ref in action before and I'm not impressed.
 
Hedonist1 said:
I will say that they do call pins prematurely but that one was the ridiculous opposite - no doubt he was flat as a pancake on several occasions. There's been times I cringe at some of the quick pins even given to our guys (even though I think eventually they would have firm pin) but come on - plain simple case of home town ref not having the nuts to make the call. I've seen that ref in action before and I'm not impressed.
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Sometimes all I can do is chuckle at some of things said about refs on this board.

Last night, I was with quite a few college wrestling refs, and a number of high school wrestling refs. Almost every time I switched to another group, I'd quickly hear talk about the Gulibon - Heil match. It seemed to be the #1 topic of discussion at the gathering. Every ref that offered an opinion on the match said the same two things: 1) based on the video they had seen (which is the same as what the public has seen), they did not see a pin, 2) a few times Heil did come very close to being pinned.

As for the ref in question, Mike Hagerty, you might not be impressed, but I'll share this statement that a ref that does both college and high school (Ironman, Beast of the East, PA States, etc.) said about Hagerty: "Without a doubt, he's one of the top three college wrestling refs that currently is reffing."
 
Tom McAndrew said:
Sometimes all I can do is chuckle at some of things said about refs on this board.

Last night, I was with quite a few college wrestling refs, and a number of high school wrestling refs. Almost every time I switched to another group, I'd quickly hear talk about the Gulibon - Heil match. It seemed to be the #1 topic of discussion at the gathering. Every ref that offered an opinion on the match said the same two things: 1) based on the video they had seen (which is the same as what the public has seen), they did not see a pin, 2) a few times Heil did come very close to being pinned.

As for the ref in question, Mike Hagerty, you might not be impressed, but I'll share this statement that a ref that does both college and high school (Ironman, Beast of the East, PA States, etc.) said about Hagerty: "Without a doubt, he's one of the top three college wrestling refs that currently is reffing."
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I am sure Hagerty is a fine ref but maybe not as good as when he is refereeing for OK State and Dean Heil is on the mat. I will not believe that he was not thinking Dean Heil when looking at those shoulder blades. This is where (Big 12) he makes his money. Unless he's not human.

I am surprised that Hagerty didn't award a takedown (see Mega video). Jimmy seemed to have quite a bit of control both times as illustrated in other posts.

I am also disappointed that he fell for Collica's trickery. The assistant referee finally told him what was going on and he then had a discussion with both wrestlers and it didn't happen again.

Saturday was not one of his finest moments.
 
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I agree.....Hagerty may be one of the best or most utilized refs in the business but he dropped the ball big time and should have some explaining to do. To me, he clearly would not call a defensive pin against OSU, especially Heil. Even when some of the Iowa fans were squawking over Bo's spladle and that he was pinned, at least he was going for a pinning combo at the time and not holding/stalling for dear life like Heil. I don't think Bo was set like Heil either....on several occasions.
 
johnstownsteel said:
Everyone's talking about it except those that need to be talking about it. I've watched it a hundred times....I still see a pin. I'd really like Hagerty or the head of officiating to explain to me why I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing. I'm being genuine here....no sarcasm at all.
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Calling a pin is subjective due to the "full second" count and when it starts. It should be explained why Hagerty saw no "control" and a TD, because simply saying he saw a crotch-lock doesn't cut it under the rules. Rule Interpretations for this specific situation (i.e., one wrestler shots and gains a leg and the other wrestler engages a crotch-lock in an attempt to thwart the TD) are quite clear that a crotch-lock does not prevent the TD once the shooting wrestler has gained control of both legs and has fully neutralized opponent's crotch-lock with his head above opponent's waist as demonstrated by the official's call on the first scramble in this video:

​


The issue is not whether Heil still had a crotch-lock hold engaged, the issue is whether Jimmy had neutralized the crotch-lock (which he had by hooking Heil's leg with his own leg using the leg which Heil was locked through) with full control of both of Heil's legs and his head above Heil's waist. Jimmy met the test for "control" including that Heil's crotch-lock had no possibility of improving Heil's position (in fact, the crotch-lock was detrimental to Heil's position and advantageous to Jimmy as the harder Heil pulled on the crotch-lock the flatter on his back he would become due to Jimmy's leg-hook on that side - IOW, Heil attempting crotch-lift merely "tightened" the stack, pulled Jimmy's hips further forward onto his chest/shoulders and pulled Heil's foot forward toward his head all of which only served to make him flatter on his blades.). At the very least, 6 points for TD and NF should have been called at end of 2nd period.
 
PSUBluebird said:
I agree.....Hagerty may be one of the best or most utilized refs in the business but he dropped the ball big time and should have some explaining to do. To me, he clearly would not call a defensive pin against OSU, especially Heil. Even when some of the Iowa fans were squawking over Bo's spladle and that he was pinned, at least he was going for a pinning combo at the time and not holding/stalling for dear life like Heil. I don't think Bo was set like Heil either....on several occasions.
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Bo versus The Mullet not a good comparison because although Bo may have gone flat, it was SUBSEQUENT to Brooks being flat and pinned FIRST (look at the posted picture, Brooks clearly flat and pinned in picture). The official correctly immediately went to the opposite side of Bo when he saw the spladle and was down on the mat as soon as both wrestlers hit the mat from Bo "rolling through".

Sequence was Brooks getting pinned first as Bo was pulling back on the legs, then Bo may have gone flat as he laid back for maximum leverage, but Brooks was already pinned at that point.
 
Tom McAndrew said:
Sometimes all I can do is chuckle at some of things said about refs on this board.

Last night, I was with quite a few college wrestling refs, and a number of high school wrestling refs. Almost every time I switched to another group, I'd quickly hear talk about the Gulibon - Heil match. It seemed to be the #1 topic of discussion at the gathering. Every ref that offered an opinion on the match said the same two things: 1) based on the video they had seen (which is the same as what the public has seen), they did not see a pin, 2) a few times Heil did come very close to being pinned.

As for the ref in question, Mike Hagerty, you might not be impressed, but I'll share this statement that a ref that does both college and high school (Ironman, Beast of the East, PA States, etc.) said about Hagerty: "Without a doubt, he's one of the top three college wrestling refs that currently is reffing."
Click to expand...
I'm sure if you supped with Big Time College Football referees back in the day, they would all swear that Michigan Dave Witvoet was an outstanding official.

And they'd be biased and dead wrong.
 
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21Guns said:
Yep.

About 98 to 2.
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May I suggest an anon poll be set up with some provisions. If you read the poll and have seen the match you have to vote and to vote honestly. No crossed anything. the powers might be able to set it up so that each individuals views should match the votes correct? i have no idea how to work 21 into this, sorry bud.
 
johnstownsteel said:
Seems everyone is split on their thinking...
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Here was a poll and some great discussion from TheMat.com - HIT THE LINK. 3-to-1 believed Heil was pinned on a neutral board. As several knowledgable posters discussed Jimmy should have been awarded the TD and NF points at the very least in the 2nd - Heil having a crotch-lock is irrelevant to Jimmy establishing control under the rules.
 
purescurve said:
May I suggest an anon poll be set up with some provisions. If you read the poll and have seen the match you have to vote and to vote honestly. No crossed anything. the powers might be able to set it up so that each individuals views should match the votes correct? i have no idea how to work 21 into this, sorry bud.
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Good idea but poll should ask both questions:
  1. Did Jimmy meet "control" criteria to overcome defensive crotch-lock and should have been awarded TD and therefore drawn NF count?
  2. Was Heil pinned?
 
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I find Hegarty's reputation as a ref to be irrelevant to this particular situation. Even if he were indisputably the best ref in the world, that still would not mean that he is infallible. Anyone can make a bad call, which it appears he did in looking at the tape.

The most humorous take on this by far was the CowboyUp guy who mentioned "rolling through". That was a real sidesplitter.
 
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NittanyChris said:
I find Hegarty's reputation as a ref to be irrelevant to this particular situation. Even if he were indisputably the best ref in the world, that still would not mean that he is infallible. Anyone can make a bad call, which it appears he did in looking at the tape.

The most humorous take on this by far was the CowboyUp guy who mentioned "rolling through". That was a real sidesplitter.
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yeah, should have said rolling back and forth across. But, still no fall in videos I have seen.
 
Tom McAndrew said:
enjoy
Thanks for the articlesame. I appreciate you adding them.

Lock Haven Express: Tom Elling's Wreslting 'Mat-ters' -- Big Weekend For Districts
(short piece on PSU - Ok. St. toward the end of the article)

PennLive: Injured Penn State freshman Nick Suriano 'has some work to do,' but Cael Sanderson says he'll be at the Big Tens

Des Moines Register: Kevin Dresser's Iowa State vision requires major recruits, resources

Des Moines Register: Kevin Dresser's top goal at Iowa State -- Reignite rivalry with Iowa

FloWrestling: Dean Heil was NOT Pinned
(article and video of the match)
Click to expand...
 
NittanyChris said:
I find Hegarty's reputation as a ref to be irrelevant to this particular situation. Even if he were indisputably the best ref in the world, that still would not mean that he is infallible. Anyone can make a bad call, which it appears he did in looking at the tape.

The most humorous take on this by far was the CowboyUp guy who mentioned "rolling through". That was a real sidesplitter.
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He needs booed big time by us to say the least....
 
I've seen exactly three people, who are not in a fraternity of officials, out of thousands, who actually say it wasn't a pin.

Side note: Notice how NOBODY is arguing that Jimmy didn't actually have the takedown?
 
johnstownsteel said:
Everyone's talking about it except those that need to be talking about it. I've watched it a hundred times....I still see a pin. I'd really like Hagerty or the head of officiating to explain to me why I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing. I'm being genuine here....no sarcasm at all.
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nothing to see here, now foley not discussing international corruption that is something we need to rehash every stinking week until we get answers.
 
Hagerty seems to be a pretty solid official. Of course the official who reffed the 2014 dual between Minnesota and Penn State (Mike McCormick I believe) is renowned as a top notch official also. This was the guy who incorrectly penalized Zack Bietz for fleeing the mat and cost Penn State the match against Minnesota.

Good officials screw the pooch as well as poor officials - they just do so with less frequency.

I have watched the Gulibon Heil match 4 times. To me it looks like Hagerty had multiple opportunities to slap the mat if he was prepared to, but I can give him the benefit of the doubt on the fall. He completely missed an obvious takedown twice. It wasn't subjective, it was by definition (just ask Franklin ;)).

The two stall calls on Zain were so incorrect the NCAA had a press release to explain the correct call.

Hagerty probably is a top wrestling official, but he had a really bad day. Any opinion offered by any grouping of wrestling officials stating anything different is as incorrect as the stall calls on Zain.
 
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