Bowl guru Jerry Palm has potential 10-2 Penn State slotted in NY6 (Orange) versus Wake Forest

PSUWrestlingFanSince2011

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By that same logic, the last few games of the regular season are even more meaningless. After all, most conference teams have been eliminated from contention by then, so why should the top players bother to play out the string against the likes of Northwestern and Indiana.

I've always enjoyed the bowl games though no question, there are waaaay too many of them. Extra month of practice. Potential for interesting intersectional matchups. The chance to end a season on a positive note. Good springboard for the following year. That kind of thing.

I do agree that an expanded playoff changes the equation significantly. I assume the current bowl system will somehow absorb the playoff set-up. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.
Yes once we lose 2 games the rest of the season is almost meaningless.
 

GregInPitt

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I dont mean to be rude, but this was a little too long for me. I will correct you and say that I never once mentioned youth or the team being young factoring into my satisfaction with them possibly ending 9-3.
I didn't say you tied that to the projected W/L, and I just clarified that in my prior response. I agreed with you on your expectations (which is why I "liked" your comment) and was commenting on the feeling among other fans that seemed to set higher expectations for 2023 based upon their belief that the 2022 team was a "young team", which I don't see the basis for. Team has a good bit of young talent, but will lose a good bit of mature talent as well as leadership and experience.

Yep I did get carried away with my thoughts on the experience and leadership PSU will lose...........
 
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okinburg1

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Would be a real letdown for the players. Work hard and achieve a 10 - 2 record only to play against an ACC bottom feeder. Wake Forest plays a cupcake schedule. Take a look at it. The only decent team on their schedule is Clemson and they lost that game. Wake is just like the pitters last year. Good record solely the result of a cupcake schedule. Wake Forest would probably finish in the middle of the pack in the Big 10 West. If we play them Allar will probably get to play at least two quarters.
You know that WF can basically say the same thing right? "The only decent teams on their schedule are Michigan and Ohio State and they lose those games. Good record solely the result of a cupcake schedule."
NY6 bowls are, for the moment, still a big deal and I think it would be great for the program if they play in any of them (and hopefully win).
 

LMTLION

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I don't think Saban is a good source on this. He's only missed the playoff once. I think he had 2 1st round WRs sit the bowl vs Michigan the year they missed. Saban makes it sound good. But until the NFL visibly punishes a guy for sitting, it's going to continue.
This trend of sitting out bowl games will accelerate . Some disagreed with me in a different message thread, but that trend will appear in an expanded CFB 12 team playoff as well. Only solution is for the bowls to financially reward the players and purchase injury insurance as well. You will see the bowls wither away otherwise.
 

Online Persona

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Yeah, that factor has to be considered these days. If he were to sit out, the game, if it were even to happen, would become a lot less attractive.

I don't know, from what I can tell, he's not projected as a 1st-round pick, maybe not even a 2nd-round pick, so he might have some incentive to play. Then again, our own experience last year was that some guys who could have helped themselves by playing against Arkansas, decided to opt out.
Playing against one of the top secondaries in the nation may be reason not to play. Draft stock can go down as well as up. Who knows what his advisors may tell him.
 

ShoreLion85

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I'd be thrilled with 10-2, but I see 1 more slip up beyond OSU at least. I won't be upset with 9-3 as I saw it as our ceiling before the season, I think it reestablishes our expectations and will look forward to 2023 with excitement.
Under Franklin, name the season that we didn’t lose a game we were favored to win? Example 1, last years OT debacle to Illinois AT HOME! He’s currently 1-7 vs OSU, so a second loss is almost a foregone conclusion, unfortunately. Which of our final four games will be the “shocking” 3rd loss? Who knows?

But, suppose some miracle occurs and we win out after Saturday, finishing 10-2. 10-2! A NY6 Bowl! Totally HOLLOW! Why, because we will have FAILED the only 3 on-field success metrics for the PSU Football program:

1. We were demolished losing to UM
2. We will have lost to OSU
3. Thus, we will not win the conference.

10-2 is meaningful only in that it is better than 9-3 - it is not success when we lose the only 2 games that matter. A NY6 Bowl game that is not a playoff game is also practically meaningless. 1981 is OVER! The goal is not 10-2 and an invite to the whatever bowl.

There are 3 success metrics, and they are these 3, and ONLY these 3. When will Nittany Nation and the PSU Football program get it?
 
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lazydave841

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Doubtful B10 gets 2 in playoff. More likely is if both are 11-0 then loser goes to Rose Bowl.

The only circumstance I could see it happening is if OSU and Michigan are the last 2 undefeated teams at 1/2 for their matchup. Everybody else will need losses. Preferably whoever the committee moves up to 2/3/4 or wherever they place the loser of that game before ccg week would be beneficial for them to lose the ccg.


This trend of sitting out bowl games will accelerate . Some disagreed with me in a different message thread, but that trend will appear in an expanded CFB 12 team playoff as well. Only solution is for the bowls to financially reward the players and purchase injury insurance as well. You will see the bowls wither away otherwise.

Are you saying players will hold out of playoff games or that the remaining bowls will see even more hold outs after the playoff expands? I agree on the latter.
 

lazydave841

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There are 3 success metrics, and they are these 3, and ONLY these 3. When will Nittany Nation and the PSU Football program get it?

What is a probable solution to achieving these 3 success metrics? I've seen it written many times, but you never offer up any solution. I'm curious if you have an idea on this, or if it's strictly goal based and not purpose driven.
 

ShoreLion85

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What is a probable solution to achieving these 3 success metrics? I've seen it written many times, but you never offer up any solution. I'm curious if you have an idea on this, or if it's strictly goal based and not purpose driven.
Glad you asked. Obviously it is a multi-pronged solution set. Here are some steps that would help:

1. Get every member of the Athletic Department to understand and inculcate the 3 success metrics; from the Head Coaches to the janitors;

2. Analyze each sport to see which can be eliminated. Yes, eliminated. My standard would start with “has this sport ever won the Big Ten”? Thus, I would save funds by eliminating men’s tennis and men’s golf right off the bat. Mens hoops would be an exception, as they are a funds generator. All saved funds go directly to upgrading the football program;

3. Reduce scholarships to the Title X minimum allowable; any saved funds go immediately to the football program;

4. BENCHMARK! What are Alabama and Clemson doing that makes their programs so much better than ours? Find out, by any legal means necessary. Implement the things that they’re doing immediately. If they can do it, why can’t we? And if we can’t, than admit it to the PSU world publicly so we can adjust our expectations accordingly;

5. Find an Angel Capitalist, like PSU did for ice hockey - maybe the same one. Mr. Pegula is now worth $6.7 Billion according to what I’ve recently read. He’s also a football guy (Buffalo Bills). Whomever - apply all funds to improving the football program.

Football drives the bus and pays the bills - it’s about time PSU acted like it, stopped all the nonsense like upgrading the field hockey facilities (their literal dozens of fans must be thrilled) and giving out fencing scholarships and do what it takes to be an actual elite football program, rather than the fantasy one in Coach Franklin’s fevered imagination.
 
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PSU2UNC

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Glad you asked. Obviously it is a multi-pronged solution set. Here are some steps that would help:

1. Get every member of the Athletic Department to understand and inculcate the 3 success metrics; from the Head Coaches to the janitors;
Sure if you like. That won't help and is just corporate speak, but if you want to do that, knock yourself out.
2. Analyze each sport to see which can be eliminated. Yes, eliminated. My standard would start with “has this sport ever won the Big Ten”? Thus, I would save funds by eliminating men’s tennis and men’s golf right off the bat. Mens hoops would be an exception, as they are a funds generator. All saved funds go directly to upgrading the football program;
No. No. No. A thousand times no. PSU should be adding more sports not reducing the number of sports. This is the worst comment I've read on this board in a long time.
3. Reduce scholarships to the Title X minimum allowable; any saved funds go immediately to the football program;
Nope. PSU should be adding scholarships in non-revenue sports, not the reverse. You are being ridiculous.
4. BENCHMARK! What are Alabama and Clemson doing that makes their programs so much better than ours? Find out, by any legal means necessary. Implement the things that they’re doing immediately. If they can do it, why can’t we? And if we can’t, than admit it to the PSU world publicly so we can adjust our expectations accordingly;
I have no issue studying other programs, but I'm not sure it is that simple.
5. Find an Angel Capitalist, like PSU did for ice hockey - maybe the same one. Mr. Pegula is now worth $6.7 Billion according to what I’ve recently read. He’s also a football guy (Buffalo Bills). Whomever - apply all funds to improving the football program.
You seem to think $$$ can buy a national championship. Ask TAMU how that is working out for them.
Football drives the bus and pays the bills - it’s about time PSU acted like it, stopped all the nonsense like upgrading the field hockey facilities (their literal dozens of fans must be thrilled) and giving out fencing scholarships and do what it takes to be an actual elite football program, rather than the fantasy one in Coach Franklin’s fevered imagination.
Just stop it. This is moronic.
 
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ShoreLion85

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Sure if you like. That won't help and is just corporate speak, but if you want to do that, knock yourself out.

No. No. No. A thousand times no. PSU should be adding more sports not reducing the number of sports. This is the worst comment I've read on this board in a long time.

Nope. PSU should be adding scholarships in non-revenue sports, not the reverse. You are being ridiculous.

I have no issue studying other programs, but I'm not sure it is that simple.

You seem to think $$$ can buy a national championship. Ask TAMU how that is working out for them.

Just stop it. This is moronic.
1. It’s called a Mission Statement, and it’s important for success;

2. Alabama doesn’t have 29 sports; Clemson doesn’t have 29 sports. Too many leads to funding and goal diffusion, and that isn’t optimal.

3. We do not need any more sports, and in fact should fund less, so that we can concentrate on sports that matter.

4. Benchmarking to find areas to improve our football program is critically important. Success leaves clues. Identify the clues and implement to improve.

5. You might not get what you pay for, but you most assuredly will not get what you DON’T pay for. We waste money, lots of it, on below-niche sports that have almost no fans besides the athletes parents. Football indeed drives the finances of the Athletic Dept. This is unarguable.

I won’t bother to address your childish ad hominem characterization of my ideas.
 

john4psu

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Under Franklin, name the season that we didn’t lose a game we were favored to win? Example 1, last years OT debacle to Illinois AT HOME! He’s currently 1-7 vs OSU, so a second loss is almost a foregone conclusion, unfortunately. Which of our final four games will be the “shocking” 3rd loss? Who knows?

But, suppose some miracle occurs and we win out after Saturday, finishing 10-2. 10-2! A NY6 Bowl! Totally HOLLOW! Why, because we will have FAILED the only 3 on-field success metrics for the PSU Football program:

1. We were demolished losing to UM
2. We will have lost to OSU
3. Thus, we will not win the conference.

10-2 is meaningful only in that it is better than 9-3 - it is not success when we lose the only 2 games that matter. A NY6 Bowl game that is not a playoff game is also practically meaningless. 1981 is OVER! The goal is not 10-2 and an invite to the whatever bowl.

There are 3 success metrics, and they are these 3, and ONLY these 3. When will Nittany Nation and the PSU Football program get it?
I suggest you root for Clemson. They dominate the Almost Competitive Conference. Go be happy.
 
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PSU2UNC

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1. It’s called a Mission Statement, and it’s important for success;
Mission statements are complete bullshit.
2. Alabama doesn’t have 29 sports; Clemson doesn’t have 29 sports. Too many leads to funding and goal diffusion, and that isn’t optimal.
Which is why PSU's athletic department is better than either Bama or Clemson.
3. We do not need any more sports, and in fact should fund less, so that we can concentrate on sports that matter.
I strenuously disagree and suspect many on this board do as well.
4. Benchmarking to find areas to improve our football program is critically important. Success leaves clues. Identify the clues and implement to improve.
This may be part of the equation, but is certainly not a silver bullet.
5. You might not get what you pay for, but you most assuredly will not get what you DON’T pay for. We waste money, lots of it, on below-niche sports that have almost no fans besides the athletes parents. Football indeed drives the finances of the Athletic Dept. This is unarguable.
It is arguable as this is NOT a "waste" of money.
I won’t bother to address your childish ad hominem characterization of my ideas.
Your ideas are crap. How's that for ad hominem?
 

LandoComando

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Doubtful B10 gets 2 in playoff. More likely is if both are 11-0 then loser goes to Rose Bowl.
Maybe--probably but an 11-1 Ohio State with their only loss to 13-0 Michigan likely would get in unless Clemson or TCU is undefeated. And they might still get in over an undefeated TCU. Hopefully Penn State beats Ohio State though then they both won't get in.
 

ivan brunetti

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If we win out and win the Big Ten title, we have a 65% chance of making the playoff.

You would need some help if Penn State, Ohio State and Michigan all end up 8-1 in conference. The tie breaker would be records of Big Ten West opponents.

At the moment, Penn St's West opponents are 5-8, Ohio State's opponents are 4-9, and Michigan's are 6-6.
 

AWS1022

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Glad you asked. Obviously it is a multi-pronged solution set. Here are some steps that would help:

1. Get every member of the Athletic Department to understand and inculcate the 3 success metrics; from the Head Coaches to the janitors;

2. Analyze each sport to see which can be eliminated. Yes, eliminated. My standard would start with “has this sport ever won the Big Ten”? Thus, I would save funds by eliminating men’s tennis and men’s golf right off the bat. Mens hoops would be an exception, as they are a funds generator. All saved funds go directly to upgrading the football program;

3. Reduce scholarships to the Title X minimum allowable; any saved funds go immediately to the football program;

4. BENCHMARK! What are Alabama and Clemson doing that makes their programs so much better than ours? Find out, by any legal means necessary. Implement the things that they’re doing immediately. If they can do it, why can’t we? And if we can’t, than admit it to the PSU world publicly so we can adjust our expectations accordingly;

5. Find an Angel Capitalist, like PSU did for ice hockey - maybe the same one. Mr. Pegula is now worth $6.7 Billion according to what I’ve recently read. He’s also a football guy (Buffalo Bills). Whomever - apply all funds to improving the football program.

Football drives the bus and pays the bills - it’s about time PSU acted like it, stopped all the nonsense like upgrading the field hockey facilities (their literal dozens of fans must be thrilled) and giving out fencing scholarships and do what it takes to be an actual elite football program, rather than the fantasy one in Coach Franklin’s fevered imagination.
So how do we improve the recruiting base in PA? That’s the biggest hurdle.
 

PSUWrestlingFanSince2011

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So how do we improve the recruiting base in PA? That’s the biggest hurdle.
We have a better recruiting area, geographically than OSU. PA and Ohio are pretty even, Ohio maybe a little better state recruiting wise but we are closer to NJ, DC/MD, VA, CT, NY, etc... OSU is closer to Michigan but besides that not much else geographically speaking. So don't try and use that as an excuse.
 

Parkerdam555

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You would need some help if Penn State, Ohio State and Michigan all end up 8-1 in conference. The tie breaker would be records of Big Ten West opponents.

At the moment, Penn St's West opponents are 5-8, Ohio State's opponents are 4-9, and Michigan's are 6-6.
Jesus just go away troll
 

lazydave841

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We have a better recruiting area, geographically than OSU. PA and Ohio are pretty even, Ohio maybe a little better state recruiting wise

Top 500 kids (using on3 concensus)

Ohio 14
PA 11

Top 300

Ohio 8
PA 5

Columbus - fairly big city, airport that flys in and out of everywhere, every kid in the state is taught from birth to pick the Buckeyes if they offer

State College - rural in comparison, not a very accessible airport, doesn't fly as many places near as much, kids not taught to pick dear old State

These are crude, but generally accurate. 15 years ago when concert festivals got started again, Columbus was picked because it's 500 miles or less away from 70% of the US population and has multiple interstates and airports to get people there.
 

PSU2UNC

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kids not taught to pick dear old State
I'm not sure this is exactly how I would describe it. I think OSU is the "Official State Football School" in a way that PSU kind of isn't. In other words, you have kids you don't go to OSU (for whatever reason) and end up at BGSU or Miami (OH) or Toledo (all of who obviously have D1 football programs) but they still cheer for the Buckeyes. I don't think you have too many kids at Pitt or Temple (the only other PA schools with FBS programs) who actively cheer for PSU.

So in OH, even if your parents went to Kent St, if they were football fans, you probably grew up an OSU fan. It's kind of an odd thing (and I think maybe owes to how bad the OH NFL teams were for so long, combined with the lack of another P5 school in state).
 

ivan brunetti

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Jesus just go away troll

Sorry, poor sport. No can do.

FfIif2-XwAAX6nT.jpg:large
 

lazydave841

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It's kind of an odd thing

Very odd. Success compounds it, but at Penn State's peak runs, have we had our pick of every kid in the state? Philly kids seem to be interested in traveling. Catholic school kids bite on the ND fish hook. Pittsburgh kids are just as likely to go elsewhere than SC. Just not a prevalent in state loyalty to Penn State it seems. At least, not to the degree of Buckeye mania.

Blame the Eagles and Steelers?
 

PSU2UNC

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Very odd. Success compounds it, but at Penn State's peak runs, have we had our pick of every kid in the state? Philly kids seem to be interested in traveling. Catholic school kids bite on the ND fish hook. Pittsburgh kids are just as likely to go elsewhere than SC. Just not a prevalent in state loyalty to Penn State it seems. At least, not to the degree of Buckeye mania.

Blame the Eagles and Steelers?
I'm not aware of any other state like it except maybe Nebraska (I don't think there is another FBS program in the state) but they don't have enough in state talent for it to matter much.

Most big ten states have multiple Big Ten (or at least FBS schools) that prevent this kind of "monopoly" over CFB fandom.

Not saying this is the reason OSU is successful, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
 

PSUWrestlingFanSince2011

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I'm not aware of any other state like it except maybe Nebraska (I don't think there is another FBS program in the state) but they don't have enough in state talent for it to matter much.

Most big ten states have multiple Big Ten (or at least FBS schools) that prevent this kind of "monopoly" over CFB fandom.

Not saying this is the reason OSU is successful, but it certainly doesn't hurt.
Blaming Pitt on our success lol
 

ShoreLion85

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Very odd. Success compounds it, but at Penn State's peak runs, have we had our pick of every kid in the state? Philly kids seem to be interested in traveling. Catholic school kids bite on the ND fish hook. Pittsburgh kids are just as likely to go elsewhere than SC. Just not a prevalent in state loyalty to Penn State it seems. At least, not to the degree of Buckeye mania.

Blame the Eagles and Steelers?
Here’s another idea, and I don’t know if it’s being done:

As I’ve said, success leaves clues. At PSU, we actually have one elite program: Wrestling. So, what is Cael Sanderson doing that makes PSU Wrestling THE elite program in the nation? What are his recruiting strategies/tactics to get elite athletes to come to PSU? What are the University’s attributes he “sells”? What are the athletic attributes for which he looks? I’d bet there is something there that would help the Football Program.

Frankly, he is the only coach at PSU that understands what success for a PSU sport is supposed to be. He accepts no excuses, makes no stupid boasts about being”elite”, and destroys our competition on a regular basis. Yes, I’m well aware that collegiate wrestling is a much smaller world than collegiate football, but I’d surmise that there are some factors that could cross over and help.

just like we should benchmark Alabama, Clemson, and Georgia football programs, I would think applying the same principles in analyzing the approach of the only PSU Head Coach that understands what success means would be something our exceedingly arrogant Head football coach might want to consider. Clearly, he doesn’t have very many answers to our issues.
 

AWS1022

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We have a better recruiting area, geographically than OSU. PA and Ohio are pretty even, Ohio maybe a little better state recruiting wise but we are closer to NJ, DC/MD, VA, CT, NY, etc... OSU is closer to Michigan but besides that not much else geographically speaking. So don't try and use that as an excuse.
Home state is far more important than what you’re close to. Also, how many P5 schools are in Ohio? It’s not an excuse, it’s a reality….we saw it happening before Franklin got here.
 

AWS1022

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I'm not sure this is exactly how I would describe it. I think OSU is the "Official State Football School" in a way that PSU kind of isn't. In other words, you have kids you don't go to OSU (for whatever reason) and end up at BGSU or Miami (OH) or Toledo (all of who obviously have D1 football programs) but they still cheer for the Buckeyes. I don't think you have too many kids at Pitt or Temple (the only other PA schools with FBS programs) who actively cheer for PSU.

So in OH, even if your parents went to Kent St, if they were football fans, you probably grew up an OSU fan. It's kind of an odd thing (and I think maybe owes to how bad the OH NFL teams were for so long, combined with the lack of another P5 school in state).
My son and I have done some experiments with this. Go to a mall in WV and count how many WVU shirts and hats you see….we would always see about 80-90% of the people wearing something. We do the same when we go the mall in Lexington KY….again, about 80-90% of the people wearing UK stuff. When we go to a mall in PA, we see maybe 20-30% of the people in PSU gear. There is much more diversity of school fandom in PA than many other states where the kids grow up as fans and want to play for the “home” school.
 
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